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An Announcement Regarding Real Life Harassment

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Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1441 - 2014-03-29 18:18:38 UTC
So all the underlying problems still exist and a large part of the player base is completely confused. Lol

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Dorn Val
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1442 - 2014-03-29 18:18:53 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

Just FYI, Erotica 1's evidence also showed the "victim" hurling real life death threats and racial abuse, as well as several other people on the bonus room side. Seems strange they were so selective in the interpretation of the evidence. It almost seems like they weren't even responding to the evidence at all, but to the public outcry and the CSM with a personal vendetta.


I just can't "like" your post enough, and could not have said that better myself!

Sandbox: An enclosed area filled with sand for children engaged in open-ended, unstructured, imaginative play. Also a place for cats to urinate and defecate...
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1443 - 2014-03-29 18:18:55 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Let me quote you again for clarity:
Darkopus wrote:
so please explain to me what asking someone to smear mayon on their body has to do with internet spaceships, also what has telling your victim to give his wife a paperbag to breathe into to calm her down got to do with internet spaceships
So yes, what does that have to do with internet spaceships? It doesn't have anything at all to do with internet spaceships, so CCP has absolutely no reason to step into it, since it has nothing to do with them. In the exact same way that personal attacks on twitter have nothing to do with them.

Except you omit that the person behind Erotica 1's avatar is using the game as a tool to reel his victims out of game. And that makes it CCP's business, whether you like it or not.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1444 - 2014-03-29 18:19:45 UTC
Just because CCP banned someone doesnt mean CCP failed the community.
The fact that CCP had to ban someone in this manner means we as a community failed ourselves.

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.
Mario Putzo
#1445 - 2014-03-29 18:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Some language may be offensive view at own* risk.


*disclaimer.
And by own I mean you. I am not being responsible for your actions should you click on this link. I am not making you click it, you are clicking it. If you click that link you consent to the fact it was your own choice to do so and I in no way made you click on it, thus absolving me of any responsibility of your actions.
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#1446 - 2014-03-29 18:20:44 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
olan2005 wrote:
No its not alright . It still being a punch of Narcissistic prick. However without evidence provided by the perpetrator it will be a hell of a lot harder for them to intervene
So then their rules should state that. They shouldn't pretend nothing has changed, then ban someone for doing something that was fine last month. They also shouldn't ignore the other highly rule breaking behaviour on that very same recording, and they shouldn't be stating that they do not deal with third party communications, then base a ban off of them.

As Remiel has stated, it's not about the decision they have taken, nobody blames them for thinking Erotica 1 has broken some rules, but they need to consistently enforce them. All they;ve done here is shown that a CSM with a vendetta and a screaming public gets them to take action, while the act of actually harassing someone does not.


You still conveniently ignore the fact that the player using those out of game comms, was using CCP's game in order to find, scam and victimise their target.

In that case CCP have every right to remove the protagonist.

Aaaaaaand relax.
Drone 16
Holy Horde
#1447 - 2014-03-29 18:21:43 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Drone 16 wrote:
Oh it's the "what if" guy that pestered Malcanis out of the thread last night. What if you take your myriad of questions to a GM or start a bonus room and see how far you can push it until you reach THE LINE. Why pester innocent Eve folk with you incessant neediness?

Take some responsibility for yourself and go find THE LINE. Why are you such a follower that you need your betters to explain it all to you?
What if I continue to express myself however and wherever I like?

I happen to believe it's not a responsible decision to state that nothing changed, yet clearly ban someone for something that was not an issue last month, then state absolutely no idea of where the new line stands. Some people seem to think it covers all situations where anything out of game is requested, some seem to think it only covers teamspeak, some think it covers only extreme situations.

It's in the players best interests to get a straight answer from CCP, and if it wasn't for the fact that you guys have such a hate on for Erotica 1, you'd be bitching at CCP for exactly the same reasons. I know this, because this is always the response. If CCP even release a tiny patch to change the spelling of a tutorial mission half the community flies of the handle about how CCP aren't being specific enough.

If you don't like it, that's your problem. Deal with it, and the "report post button is up there /\ if you feel I should be made to shut up.


Hey Bro, you can cry me a river all day if you like. I enjoy watching snivelers snivel.

Point is, you are not accomplishing anything with you juvenile neediness. No one here can tell you where you can find a rule to hide behind. We are not GM's.

As far as reporting you,not my style. I can handle anything people say to me on the forums and I don't need a rule to keep me safe.

Don't get me wrong I support your right to embarrass yourself.

Just don't get mad if I call you out from time to time for it.

So do continue. Here, in an effort to bring peace between the two of us let me start your next post.

What if...

It puts the peanutbutter on itself or it leaves the bonus round... - E1's greatest Hits
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1448 - 2014-03-29 18:22:48 UTC
Darkopus wrote:
CCP has every right because what was done was in the name of EVE, the EVE IP was used to instigate the entire affair, CCP have a right to protect their IP and their reputation. It was posted on EVE-O forums and was inextricably linked to the game. Again your apologist tears will fuel my jump drive for the next 3 months at this rate
So why is it OK to attack people related to EVE on twitter and blogs and the like, but not on TS3?

And mate, you can keep calling every single post "tears" but it doesn't make it the case. You're just starting to look like one of those "Look at me ma! I'm doing a meme!" guys. I mean you're welcome to and if it makes you feel better to think you are somehow getting one over on people by doing it you can continue to do so, freedom of speech and all that, but it doesn't exactly reflect well upon you.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1449 - 2014-03-29 18:23:36 UTC
Drone 16 wrote:
Hey Bro, you can cry me a river all day if you like. I enjoy watching snivelers snivel.

Point is, you are not accomplishing anything with you juvenile neediness. No one here can tell you where you can find a rule to hide behind. We are not GM's.

As far as reporting you,not my style. I can handle anything people say to me on the forums and I don't need a rule to keep me safe.

Don't get me wrong I support your right to embarrass yourself.

Just don't get mad if I call you out from time to time for it.

So do continue. Here, in an effort to bring peace between the two of us let me start your next post.

What if...
Incorrect.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
olan2005
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1450 - 2014-03-29 18:23:56 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
olan2005 wrote:
No its not alright . It still being a punch of Narcissistic prick. However without evidence provided by the perpetrator it will be a hell of a lot harder for them to intervene
So then their rules should state that. They shouldn't pretend nothing has changed, then ban someone for doing something that was fine last month. They also shouldn't ignore the other highly rule breaking behaviour on that very same recording, and they shouldn't be stating that they do not deal with third party communications, then base a ban off of them.

As Remiel has stated, it's not about the decision they have taken, nobody blames them for thinking Erotica 1 has broken some rules, but they need to consistently enforce them. All they;ve done here is shown that a CSM with a vendetta and a screaming public gets them to take action, while the act of actually harassing someone does not.



They cant as that would be a public statement condoning harassment of a player as long is it does not cause a headache.

To use the appropriate analogy, If a criminal incriminates himself, on say Facebook gets caught and goes to prison for a crime. The prosecutor and police have every right to use that evidence.

lets say criminal B breaks the law gets away with it by not spreading it over facebook. His actions are still morally reprehensible , and illegal, but hes got away with it , and the police and prosecutor office may not have enough evidence to convict. Lack of evidence does not make somthing ok. It just makes it harder to prosecute
Tweek Etimua
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1451 - 2014-03-29 18:26:02 UTC
To start I do believe the harassment is important to stop. And there are people who just can't handle it and do drastic things to them selves or others. This is a reality, right, wrong, good or bad, it happens.

Now not knowing what the facts are the community seems to believe that Ripard Teg's comments is at the core. Im going to use his Post at EN24 as an example.

Regarding how CCP should handle harassment. There are two Worlds here. The real world and Eve. However these lines are so blurred when talking about harassment. When you create a game that, from what I've been told, allows you to take advantage of people in order to get what you want, well that's what their going to do. How did you expect people to behave? To cut a long rant short on human nature and greed, If you thought the only means people where going to use to scam people was text messaging for them to hand over their loot or die. Than CCP made a terrible mistake.

Harassment: to trouble, torment, or confuse by continual persistent attacks, questions, etc

By that definition there is no grey area. Scamming at it's very core contains harassment. And realistically how do you intend on handling this and be fair at the same time.

Now. I my self think this is ludicrous. The community created this monster. Like in economics, we should let the market fix it self. Ripard Teg Is allowed to speak his opinion. However In my opinion he was doing it wrongly. But If he thought some one in eve was going to far well I think he was doing the responsible thing by making it known to the public, the best way to stop someone from making Isk is to take their market away.
CCP is in over their heads to make us, the community assume they're "going to handle it". Well they can't. You cant say that an individual like E1 went to far when people have the ability to choose....Don't any one dare make the comparison of what happens in eve is the equivalent to torture, ****, slavery or any other evil crime. You not only show your ignorance but offend REAL victims of such acts. People in eve CHOOSE to join a TS Chanel and sing for an hour. People in eve CHOOSE to give their in game assets to a person in hopes of getting it back and being doubled. They even CHOOSE to let some one in to their corp, then promote them to a position of power, And they choose to trust them not to take their corps stuff.


The one resounding them in eve is, "sorry you were dumb. Better luck next time." let's keep it that way.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1452 - 2014-03-29 18:26:56 UTC
Jayem See wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
olan2005 wrote:
No its not alright . It still being a punch of Narcissistic prick. However without evidence provided by the perpetrator it will be a hell of a lot harder for them to intervene
So then their rules should state that. They shouldn't pretend nothing has changed, then ban someone for doing something that was fine last month. They also shouldn't ignore the other highly rule breaking behaviour on that very same recording, and they shouldn't be stating that they do not deal with third party communications, then base a ban off of them.

As Remiel has stated, it's not about the decision they have taken, nobody blames them for thinking Erotica 1 has broken some rules, but they need to consistently enforce them. All they;ve done here is shown that a CSM with a vendetta and a screaming public gets them to take action, while the act of actually harassing someone does not.
You still conveniently ignore the fact that the player using those out of game comms, was using CCP's game in order to find, scam and victimise their target.

In that case CCP have every right to remove the protagonist.
So why then do players who have in game actions then take them out of game to forum or a blog or twitter to attack and harass those same players not get a ban hammer? Why is there clearly stated responses from GM stating that "There is nothing we can do with out-of-game activities. We can only offer assistance or take a further look when all the correspondences or conversations happened within EVE"?
Source

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1453 - 2014-03-29 18:27:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentamon
Darkopus wrote:

CCP has every right because what was done was in the name of EVE, the EVE IP was used to instigate the entire affair, CCP have a right to protect their IP and their reputation. It was posted on EVE-O forums and was inextricably linked to the game. Again your apologist tears will fuel my jump drive for the next 3 months at this rate


Fair enough, and what exactly is that affair? Asking someone to volunteer to sing and read in teamspeak for 1-2 hours?

I happen to live next to a pretty nasty neighborhood in a major USA city and where some real crime, intolerance, and harassment happens all the time and honestly it's pretty hard to wrap my head around the bonus room being anything but some immature fun between online gamers, notably in a game that encourages us to be asshats.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Good Posting
Doomheim
#1454 - 2014-03-29 18:27:18 UTC
In these hard times we are living, we all should remain calm and pray to our Saviour and Protector. Father James! Illumine the path and guide our hand through this impure valley of lost souls!





Ok, now seriously. I though that code were a bunch of high sec roleplayer kunts but i confirmed it by writing that crap. Holy shite that was disgusting.
Drone 16
Holy Horde
#1455 - 2014-03-29 18:27:59 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Drone 16 wrote:
Hey Bro, you can cry me a river all day if you like. I enjoy watching snivelers snivel.

Point is, you are not accomplishing anything with you juvenile neediness. No one here can tell you where you can find a rule to hide behind. We are not GM's.

As far as reporting you,not my style. I can handle anything people say to me on the forums and I don't need a rule to keep me safe.

Don't get me wrong I support your right to embarrass yourself.

Just don't get mad if I call you out from time to time for it.

So do continue. Here, in an effort to bring peace between the two of us let me start your next post.

What if...
Incorrect.


Witty

It puts the peanutbutter on itself or it leaves the bonus round... - E1's greatest Hits
Josef Djugashvilis
#1456 - 2014-03-29 18:30:24 UTC
Vara Vampira wrote:
So what I am getting from this...If i know an EVE Player outside of game. And we meet somewhere and I start making fun of him and "harassing" him for being a carebear and horrible at something, this would provoke CCP to ban me?


It is unlikely, try it and see Smile

This is not a signature.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1457 - 2014-03-29 18:30:48 UTC
olan2005 wrote:
They cant as that would be a public statement condoning harassment of a player as long is it does not cause a headache.

To use the appropriate analogy, If a criminal incriminates himself, on say Facebook gets caught and goes to prison for a crime. The prosecutor and police have every right to use that evidence.

lets say criminal B breaks the law gets away with it by not spreading it over facebook. His actions are still morally reprehensible , and illegal, but hes got away with it , and the police and prosecutor office may not have enough evidence to convict. Lack of evidence does not make somthing ok. It just makes it harder to prosecute
It wouldn't it would be a restatement of the exact same policy they've had for 10 years, which is that they only deal with situations that occur within EVE, and not on third party websites or comms tools.

CCP are not a court of law, their responsibility ends when EVE does, the same as Facebook's responsibility ends with Facebook. Facebook wouldn't ban a user for a statement they made on twitter, even if it was against a Facebook user.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Salvos Rhoska
#1458 - 2014-03-29 18:30:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell wrote:
c[---]


Here. Have a nice, hot cup of HTFU.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#1459 - 2014-03-29 18:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayem See
Lucas Kell wrote:
Jayem See wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
olan2005 wrote:
No its not alright . It still being a punch of Narcissistic prick. However without evidence provided by the perpetrator it will be a hell of a lot harder for them to intervene
So then their rules should state that. They shouldn't pretend nothing has changed, then ban someone for doing something that was fine last month. They also shouldn't ignore the other highly rule breaking behaviour on that very same recording, and they shouldn't be stating that they do not deal with third party communications, then base a ban off of them.

As Remiel has stated, it's not about the decision they have taken, nobody blames them for thinking Erotica 1 has broken some rules, but they need to consistently enforce them. All they;ve done here is shown that a CSM with a vendetta and a screaming public gets them to take action, while the act of actually harassing someone does not.
You still conveniently ignore the fact that the player using those out of game comms, was using CCP's game in order to find, scam and victimise their target.

In that case CCP have every right to remove the protagonist.
So why then do players who have in game actions then take them out of game to forum or a blog or twitter to attack and harass those same players not get a ban hammer? Why is there clearly stated responses from GM stating that "There is nothing we can do with out-of-game activities. We can only offer assistance or take a further look when all the correspondences or conversations happened within EVE"?
Source


They can't enforce out of game activities. The problem, and I put it to you yet again, is that Ero1's activities clearly relate to the game.

He stated that he couldn't stop the bonus room or his reputation (within Eve) would be destroyed. That said, his actions clearly fall within the remit of CCP. You can keep throwing what ifs around as much as you like. It changes nothing.

Ero1 was acting in a way that afforded him "reputation" within Eve. Therefore it is within CCP's scope to take action.

Aaaaaaand relax.
Mikhem
Taxisk Unlimited
#1460 - 2014-03-29 18:34:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mikhem
Hot topic of this week seems to be Erotica 1 ban and I decided to listen this audio file through about it. It seems that victim could have dyslexia and it was abused alot. Dyslexia means difficulty to read. I found relevant internet links for reading about this incident. This audio file was kind of sad to listen through.

People tried to scam me few times when I was rookie and I found it to be part of game experience. When I was young I sometimes lost my nerves playing games too much in a row. Nowadays I keep coffee break every few hours just like I keep coffee breaks at work.

Erotica 1 has extremely calm hypnotic tone of voice in this audio file.

Here's link to forum thread that made this issue public and behind it can be found audio file about this incident.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=332182

It seems that victim was book example of confidence trick. I didn't know about this issue before today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidence_trick

Dyslexia reading disorder in wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia

Words glory hole are used in this audio file several times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glory_hole_%28sexual_slang%29

Words bonus round are used in this audio file several times.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bonus+round

Victim has made two forum posts and here is link to his profile containing links to these posts.
https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/sohkar

Mikhem

Link library to EVE music songs.