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More immunity for Incursion Runners Required.

First post
Author
Elyssa MacLeod
Doomheim
#121 - 2011-11-15 04:50:13 UTC
Dunbar Hulan wrote:
I think CCP should stop running incursions in Toys r Us and start to hold them in a particular section of EVE- Doril - Jorund - Hemin - RMOC-W - KQ-WHE - CL-85V - 8G-MQV.

That way, the rest of us can come along and say "hello" to all the brave capsuleers that are keeping us safe from Sansha.


so they should be held more in 0.0, so certain major alliances can have that ISK sink as well as moon goo?

So that the high sec ppl can QQ MORE?
Is there noy enough QQ here?

GM Homonoia: Suicide ganks are a valid and viable tactic in EVE.

Where is your God now carebear?

Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#122 - 2011-11-15 05:00:26 UTC
Not to rain on the incursion wreckers parade but if jams last beyond ship destruction thats a broken mechanic and should and Im sure will be fixed soon enough.

As for the rest of it a fleet of 10 people in a WH can make the same amount of isk. A fleet of 10 can run the major plexs in 0.0 that will pay out just as much.

Incursions were always about getting people to work together and using that social fabric to make more isk than someone can solo. If thats not possible and like some want here to have it nerfed to the same amounts as running solo the entire point of social interaction for common goals disintegrates entirely. What amazes me is the amount of tears and whining from the 0.0 crowd over how much isk can be made. Its not like theres nothing stopping you from creating an alt to actually run incursions all day either. So frankly any whining about broken isk faucet mechanics is kind of foolish given the ability and availability for anyone to get in on these fleets even with a few month old character and earn those uber iskies!!


But for all the FCs or site scanner. If you see a wad of blackbirds on your d-scan you now whats coming. Frankly the EASIEST way to counter this is to d-scan regularly, especially if your a logi. 360 degrees @ 20K kms will do the trick. You will scan the immediate surrounding environment and the gate where they must come in from. FCs are almost always aware, or should be, of competing fleets warping in on you so theres no real excuse that way and no real need for ECCMs.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Moustached Slimy Worm
Go Petition Blizzard
Safety.
#123 - 2011-11-15 05:01:58 UTC
CCP might as well introduce a PvP "flag" that you can toggle on and off for highsec
Jovan Geldon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2011-11-15 07:03:32 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
any whining about broken isk faucet mechanics is kind of foolish given the ability and availability for anyone to get in on these fleets even with a few month old character and earn those uber iskies


I bolded the part where you were being an idiot. Just because anyone can do it, doesn't mean it isn't broken/imbalanced/overpowered/whatever.
Lucas Quaan
Goryn Clade
#125 - 2011-11-15 09:38:07 UTC
Tagera wrote:
As someone who on occasion runs incursions...they're not faucets. They're fire hoses, a good fleet can make about a bil per person in 8 to 10 hours. I was talking to one guy a few months back. He was 3months into the game and had over 17bil saved from just doing incursions. No real risk means crap tons of profit.

A million times this.

Incursions are in serious need of a nerf and the high-sec ones especially so. As a first step they should all be moved to low-sec so that there can be actual competition over them. If you think about it, that even makes sense from an RP perspective; CONCORD and the faction navies should defend high-sec and 0.0 doesn't have the planetary population density for Sansha to raid there.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#126 - 2011-11-15 09:55:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Not to rain on the incursion wreckers parade but if jams last beyond ship destruction thats a broken mechanic and should and Im sure will be fixed soon enough.

It's working as intended. It's been that way since forever. I know you're just learning about it now, but that's the general problem with highsec bears.
Quote:
As for the rest of it a fleet of 10 people in a WH can make the same amount of isk. A fleet of 10 can run the major plexs in 0.0 that will pay out just as much.

So ... you're basically saying that highsec now has an ISK source as good as running PVE in nullsec and Wormholes (nullsec & no local)? You're also aware that part of the reward of BOTH is market dependent, and not just a magic ISK fountain?

Shall we take this as a confirmation of what we are saying, that the risk:reward is wrong?

To the above poster, Incursions being a lowsec exclusive feature would be excellent. Highsec bears, and sov holders with lucky spawns, have ridden this particular gravy train far enough.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

mkint
#127 - 2011-11-15 10:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Not to rain on the incursion wreckers parade but if jams last beyond ship destruction thats a broken mechanic and should and Im sure will be fixed soon enough.

It's working as intended. It's been that way since forever. I know you're just learning about it now, but that's the general problem with highsec bears.
Quote:
As for the rest of it a fleet of 10 people in a WH can make the same amount of isk. A fleet of 10 can run the major plexs in 0.0 that will pay out just as much.

So ... you're basically saying that highsec now has an ISK source as good as running PVE in nullsec and Wormholes (nullsec & no local)? You're also aware that part of the reward of BOTH is market dependent, and not just a magic ISK fountain?

Shall we take this as a confirmation of what we are saying, that the risk:reward is wrong?

To the above poster, Incursions being a lowsec exclusive feature would be excellent. Highsec bears, and sov holders with lucky spawns, have ridden this particular gravy train far enough.

You're aware that if you run nullsec incursion you'd make almost double what the highsecers do? Stop whining about how you suck at incursions, and put together some fleets and do some yourself. Those systems are even cynojammed, so you don't have to worry about lolsuperdrops! Or maybe lolsupers is why you play EVE to begin with and are just butthurt that you can't bring one into highsec.

"QQ someone who's not me is having fun! Fix it!"

edit: and incursions are NOT a major isk faucet. Dev quote said that the LP rewards chew up most of the isk injected. Incursions are profitable, but do not have a significant affect on the economy, except to get people to play instead of station spin.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Lucas Quaan
Goryn Clade
#128 - 2011-11-15 10:14:05 UTC
mkint wrote:
edit: and incursions are NOT a major isk faucet. Dev quote said that the LP rewards chew up most of the isk injected. Incursions are profitable, but do not have a significant affect on the economy, except to get people to play instead of station spin.

Globally, perhaps not, but our complaint is that you have a 100M ISK/h activity in high-sec in the first place. That is why we are talking about broken risk/reward.
Mart Allini
Lead Farmers
#129 - 2011-11-15 10:14:59 UTC
mkint wrote:

edit: and incursions are NOT a major isk faucet. Dev quote said that the LP rewards chew up most of the isk injected. Incursions are profitable, but do not have a significant affect on the economy, except to get people to play instead of station spin.


I would very much like to see that quote
Gonzo TheGreat
Donuttown
#130 - 2011-11-15 11:50:55 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Not to rain on the incursion wreckers parade but if jams last beyond ship destruction thats a broken mechanic and should and Im sure will be fixed soon enough.

As for the rest of it a fleet of 10 people in a WH can make the same amount of isk. A fleet of 10 can run the major plexs in 0.0 that will pay out just as much..


Hai , I can haz CONCORD in my Wormhole?

Seriously, if you are comparing the incursions in HS with activities in a Wormhole or Null and saying it just pays as much, then there is something wrong in here :)
LacLongQuan
Doomheim
#131 - 2011-11-15 12:10:20 UTC
Teamosil wrote:
IMO every activity in eve should pay out in a good of some sort that people need, not straight ISK. That way the market automatically sets the profitability correctly. If it becomes too profitable, more people flood in to do it, the market gets over supplied with that good, and profitability drops. If profitability gets too low, people go do other things and it automatically comes back up. Bounties and ISK rewards break that mechanic. If CCP just sets the bounty amount too low or too high, the market can't correct it. Or at least, the only way the market can correct it is through inflation, but that just messes everything else up.

Generic LP rewards are better than ISK in that regard, but not a lot better. It artificially ties the profitability of missions and incursions together, which isn't optimal. Different values for LP might be optimal for each.

IMO CCP should remove bounties for NPCs entirely, remove all ISK mission rewards, and replace them with something else that can be converted into something tradeable that people need. Maybe you get a particular faction's LP for killing specific kinds of rats and you get concorde LP only for incursions, but new cool rewards are added to the concorde lp store. Every profession should have a free floating, market driven, profitability level. CCP would still be vaguely setting the profitability level by determining whether it pays out in a good that is in high demand or low demand and whatnot, but within those parameters it will self correct. Hard coded profitability levels are bound to go wrong every time.

excellent idea, I wish I could give you +1000000.
ton of devs in eve can't think of this, I dont think remove bounties entirely isn't a good idea. limit it.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#132 - 2011-11-15 12:22:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
mkint wrote:
You're aware that if you run nullsec incursion you'd make almost double what the highsecers do?


Hai anonymous forum alt.

Firstly, you are wrong. You're wrong because you haven't a clue what you're talking about, forum alt. You barely break 100mil per hour in lowsec / nullsec Incursions, if you are lucky, for two reasons:

1) You fly cost effective fits. No faction fit Nightmares. That, alone, makes up for nearly the entire difference in reward. Reward per site is irrelevant if you run fewer sites per hour.
2) There will be significant downtime from your site running whilst you are "interrupted"
3) Due to no one else doing them either, the influence bar stays pegged at 100% Sansha penalties. This makes a lot of the Blitz techniques invalid, and ergo the ISK/hr is actually not that awesome at all.

Of course. People running into low/null en masse to do PVE is a giant "come at me bro" magnet, so the risk is pretty damn high.

So, frankly, L2Eve

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#133 - 2011-11-15 12:25:26 UTC
Quote:
edit: and incursions are NOT a major isk faucet. Dev quote said that the LP rewards chew up most of the isk injected


Well I saw a dev post that said you were a poopoo head!

(This is very, very untrue as a statement. Try harder.)

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Mart Allini
Lead Farmers
#134 - 2011-11-15 12:41:37 UTC
Just some math on LP isk sink relative to payouts:
HS vanguard rewards 10500000 ISK and 1400 Concord LP.

Using 1 LP sinks 1000 ISK, so each vanguard will generate:
10500000 - 1400*1000 = 9100000 ISK per person in the fleet.

That is best case scenario for ISK sink from LP, ie. each person will use all of his LP, and use it all on Concord LP store items, not converting it to other stores LP.
LacLongQuan
Doomheim
#135 - 2011-11-15 12:47:29 UTC
Mart Allini wrote:
Just some math on LP isk sink relative to payouts:
HS vanguard rewards 10500000 ISK and 1400 Concord LP.

Using 1 LP sinks 1000 ISK, so each vanguard will generate:
10500000 - 1400*1000 = 9100000 ISK per person in the fleet.

That is best case scenario for ISK sink from LP, ie. each person will use all of his LP, and use it all on Concord LP store items, not converting it to other stores LP.

most incursion runner dont use their LP, so it'd be 1050000-0*1000=10500000 isk
proxwar
Doomheim
#136 - 2011-11-15 14:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: proxwar
Move incursions to low/null and they'll just die.

No high sec players will bother with them anymore due to needing very well fitted ships to run them efficiently and wont risk those ships, i say risk, i mean guarentee losing them within an hour or two to players out for 'lolz'

Maybe whats needed is the null sec incursions to pay out more, but you guys love your risk/reward so up the risks too, maybe having sansha in your space cancels any sov you hold over that system? Or maybe offlines your POS's for 7days on any tech moons that happen to be in system? Hows that sound?

The top and bottom of this is the fact incursions in high 'CAN' earn upto 100m per hour and people in low/null dont like that.

Isk coming from incursions are effecting your gameplay style in low/null by a grand total of.........nada.

Maybe if enough people shout about the current market inflation and vocally blame it all on high sec incursions, then maybe someone will listen and change the game so everybody HAS to play it the way you null dwellers want it to be played. Roll
Grarr Dexx
Now Look What You've Made Me Do
#137 - 2011-11-15 14:45:07 UTC
I thought logistics ships had really high sensor strength and utility slots to fit additional ECCMs? Not fitting them correctly?
Jak'rat
Doomheim
#138 - 2011-11-15 15:09:31 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Suicide ganks (face it, that is what this is) are a valid and viable tactic in EVE. This tactic means that your attacker gets blown up, just like in any normal suicide gank. And just like any other suicide gank there are ways to protect yourself from it; in this case it means having redundant systems and not count on the bare minimum. Or bring ECCM.

The loophole that was plugged recently fixed a tactic that gave no warning AND had NO consequence. EVE doesn't do 'no consequences' (or close to it anyway). This tactic has plenty consequences, namely CONCORDdokken + standings/security hits.

Also, it is GM Homonoia - the goddess of concord and oneness of mind.
Not GM Hormone - the family of chemicals that are designed to do weird stuff to your body and mental state.


Bookmarked, saved, copied. Purely for... uh.... personal reference. *whistles innocently*

"That's not a ship, it's a flying shotgun..."

Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#139 - 2011-11-15 15:44:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
Khanh'rhh wrote:
mkint wrote:
You're aware that if you run nullsec incursion you'd make almost double what the highsecers do?


Hai anonymous forum alt.

Firstly, you are wrong. You're wrong because you haven't a clue what you're talking about, forum alt. You barely break 100mil per hour in lowsec / nullsec Incursions, if you are lucky, for two reasons:

1) You fly cost effective fits. No faction fit Nightmares. That, alone, makes up for nearly the entire difference in reward. Reward per site is irrelevant if you run fewer sites per hour.
2) There will be significant downtime from your site running whilst you are "interrupted"
3) Due to no one else doing them either, the influence bar stays pegged at 100% Sansha penalties. This makes a lot of the Blitz techniques invalid, and ergo the ISK/hr is actually not that awesome at all.

Of course. People running into low/null en masse to do PVE is a giant "come at me bro" magnet, so the risk is pretty damn high.

So, frankly, L2Eve


Hi non anonymous, but ignorant nullsec bear.
So you're basically saying because of low interest/not enough organizational effort from nullbears incursions can't be run effectively in non-highsec space?
And this is highsec's fault... we are the ones to blame for your failure at organizing yourself?

Don't be a fool. Every single mother-loving incursion in goon space was farmed to death, revived and then farmed to death again.
Just because other nullsec alliances can't get off their high horses to set up a 8 t2 HAC + 2 logi fleet doesn't mean it's highsec's fault.
Not to count lowsec incursions which are ruled by goons and friends.

________________

Incursions in highsec are supposed to outcompete missions and other solo activities.
Incursions in highsec are supposed to be able to earn you a load of isk.

CCP Soundwave wrote:
"We purposely made this very rewarding. We didn't want a situation where agent missions f.x. were out competing this feature.
We did raise the bar relatively high, it is possible to earn a load of isk with this, but that was also the intention when we wrote the reward list. "
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#140 - 2011-11-15 16:16:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Ammzi wrote:
Hi non anonymous, but ignorant nullsec bear

I basically never run PVE. I also don't live in nullsec. But, hey, continue.
Remember the part where I said
Quote:
1) You fly cost effective fits. No faction fit Nightmares. That, alone, makes up for nearly the entire difference in reward. Reward per site is irrelevant if you run fewer sites per hour.

Then you say
Quote:
Just because other nullsec alliances can't get off their high horses to set up a 8 t2 HAC + 2 logi fleet doesn't mean it's highsec's fault.

Yep. That's the typical cost effective setup. It's also only about 2/3rds as effective under the same conditions. You then have
Quote:
2) There will be significant downtime from your site running whilst you are "interrupted"

Which remains true.
I have also stated "....sov holders with lucky spawns...." which basically means, it's pretty inefficient to wage a sov war over one Incursion constellation, no?

So once again, you fail at the basic comprehension level. You earn MORE in highsec running Incursions than you can in lowsec/nullsec. They're also one of the PVE activities that pays out most. I don't care if they're meant to be profitable or not, that's ****** up.

CCP also didn't intend them to last a week each. But guess what. What CCP intends has never been the same as what the playerbase makes of it.

You seem to keep using "but what CCP says / would do!!" as an argument. Stop, you just look stupid.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,