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CovOp fittings need tweaking.
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Neutrino Sunset
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-03-25 15:45:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Neutrino Sunset
Have CovOps been rebalanced yet? Whether they have or not it looks like they need some work to me.

Even with a MAPC the Cheetah and Buzzard cannot fit an MWD and a cyno. They all have plenty of mid slots but not enough CPU to even put anything in them.

The need to be able to swap between normal and covops cyno modules means having at least one in the cargobay, but the cargobays are too tiny to be able to carry an alternate cyno mod and fuel. The bays are less than half the size of the T1 astrometrics frigates when the ships have very similar roles and bonuses, and the T1 variants have no requirement to carry cyno fuel.

The Helios only has 2 high slots so it can't even fit a cloak, probe launcher and cyno mod, which are the very things it has ship bonuses for, so it needs to haul even more in its cargobay, yet it has the smallest cargobay of all the covops.

An inconsequential inconsisency is that the Cheetah which is the fastest covops also has the largest cargobay.

EDIT: And so I don't leave without a suggestion. Give the ones which are really tight on fitting a bit more PG and CPU, and on the Helios swap a mid for a high slot.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-03-25 18:38:12 UTC
There is a reason why they can't fit the cyno easily without compromise elsewhere.
i have a covert cyno fitted to mine np but other bits of the fit have to revolve around that.
covert cloak and covert cyno on a cheap frig is very powerful and rightfully comes with costs.
Interceptors had their cargo bays reduced when the warp speed/ nullfied changes happened for very similar reasons. You can stick cynos on them but not without cost to the rest of the fit.

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Neutrino Sunset
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-03-25 19:37:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Neutrino Sunset
CovOps aren't cheap frigs, including their fittings they are one of the more expensive frigates around.

Scouting and then cynoing in support is indeed a powerful mechanic, but it is these ships core role, which is why they have a bonus for it. If you can fit a cyno on a T1 frig without needing fitting modules then I think it stands to reason that you should be able to also do that on the ships that were designed for that very role.

Also I would think that ship scanners would be most naturally useful on CovOps, but again they are almost impossible to fit due to CPU constraints due to the fact they the CovOps have such short lock range that they also need a sensor booster to make it worth fitting a ship scanner at all.
Willmahh
#4 - 2014-03-25 19:49:37 UTC
CovOps frigates are not for support; they are for scouting and surprise buttsex.

CovOps Cruisers are for support.

Although the cov ops frigate does have more than one type of bonus, this is so you choose to fly ONE of a few VARIANTS.

multi bonuses are for options - nowhere does it mean you should be able to all of the above.

Besides who the heck would sit locked down in a paper frigate on grid with any enemy ships, lighting a cyno? do you expect to survive even if you could fit anything else?

Falcon FTW.
Neutrino Sunset
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-03-26 00:37:23 UTC
I wasn't suggesting that the CovOps frigate would provide support itself, instead that through the use of a (possibly covert) cyno that they would bring in other ships as support.

While multiple bonuses may not always need to be used at once, in this case I think it makes sense that they would be. In order to scout to a suitable position to call in support it seems fairly obvious that a CovOps's will need to also make use of its ability to cloak and probe.
Willmahh
#6 - 2014-03-26 13:01:41 UTC
You can fit an expanded launcher, a covops cyno, and a cloak to a manticore, you just won't have any weapons - and that sounds about right.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-03-26 13:24:01 UTC
Neutrino Sunset wrote:
Even with a MAPC the Cheetah and Buzzard cannot fit an MWD and a cyno. They all have plenty of mid slots but not enough CPU to even put anything in them.


Cheetah can fit a covert cyno, expanded probe launcher, MWD and scram. Covert ops frigates get no specific bonus to regular cyno's so that seems fair.

Neutrino Sunset wrote:
The need to be able to swap between normal and covops cyno modules means having at least one in the cargobay, but the cargobays are too tiny to be able to carry an alternate cyno mod and fuel. The bays are less than half the size of the T1 astrometrics frigates when the ships have very similar roles and bonuses, and the T1 variants have no requirement to carry cyno fuel.


If you have that need use something larger. It's a flipping frigate. Recon ships have the appropriate bonuses to fill this role.

Neutrino Sunset wrote:
The Helios only has 2 high slots so it can't even fit a cloak, probe launcher and cyno mod, which are the very things it has ship bonuses for, so it needs to haul even more in its cargobay, yet it has the smallest cargobay of all the covops.


Yea the Helios gets a bum rap with that 2 high fitting.


That being said the covert ops actually can fill their role fairly well.
Neutrino Sunset
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2014-03-26 14:23:36 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Cheetah can fit a covert cyno, expanded probe launcher, MWD and scram. Covert ops frigates get no specific bonus to regular cyno's so that seems fair.


This is true, but you have two empty mid slots. If you wanted to put anything in them you'd need a CPU mod, and you already have a MAPC equipped just to be able to fit the cyno.

Personally I prefer a WCS on CovOps over a scram since I never PvP in CovOps. I'm then left with 1 mid slot used out of 4 and no CPU left to fit anything.

I agree that it's perfectly reasonable that when fitting a ship for multiple roles one should expect to have to make compromises. But I'm not aware of any other case where to fit a ship for it's basic role your forced to either fit both CPU and PG mods or leave a third of your slots empty.

The need to use both PG and CPU mods on a frigate which already has limited slots seems particularly onerous.
bubble trout
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2014-03-26 16:32:45 UTC
You don't fit cynos to covops. You fit probe launchers to cov ops. That "extra high" is meant for a weapon, thus the helo not having a 3rd high. That is why there isn't the fitting you are looking for. That is why they have such small cargo bays. They aren't meant to be cloaky cyno boats, get over it.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#10 - 2014-03-26 17:37:59 UTC
bubble trout wrote:
You don't fit cynos to covops. You fit probe launchers to cov ops. That "extra high" is meant for a weapon, thus the helo not having a 3rd high. That is why there isn't the fitting you are looking for. That is why they have such small cargo bays. They aren't meant to be cloaky cyno boats, get over it.


lol which game are you playing

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-03-26 20:04:12 UTC
Neutrino Sunset wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Cheetah can fit a covert cyno, expanded probe launcher, MWD and scram. Covert ops frigates get no specific bonus to regular cyno's so that seems fair.


This is true, but you have two empty mid slots. If you wanted to put anything in them you'd need a CPU mod, and you already have a MAPC equipped just to be able to fit the cyno.


Yea and? I don't need the 2 mids and can use the ship to catch someone and light a covert cyno. Of course you would be crazy to use a frigate for this as it has no tank.

Much like I don't know why you would use an expensive covert ops frigate for a regular cyno where it is going to be stuck in space for 10 minutes with a big "shoot me" beacon lit.

Neutrino Sunset wrote:
I agree that it's perfectly reasonable that when fitting a ship for multiple roles one should expect to have to make compromises. But I'm not aware of any other case where to fit a ship for it's basic role your forced to either fit both CPU and PG mods or leave a third of your slots empty.


The mistake is in thinking a covert ops frigate "role" includes a cyno. It doesn't.

Just because it says it can fit it does not mean it is a defined role of the ship. CCP changed that (maybe a year ago) to add ALL ships at the time that could fit a covert cloak to also be able to fit a covert cyno. There is no "bonus" however, like a Recon ship where it gets a bonus to duration and fuel usage.

Heck my Viator description says it can fit a cover cyno, except it only has one high slot...


For it's intended role (cloaky hard to catch scout) the covert ops work just fine.