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Limit FW plexes to FW players
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Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-03-25 09:14:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Elshar Khandar
EDIT - Suggestion has evolved as stated in the bottom edit.

I've only been doing faction warfare for a short amount of time but something seems a bit off with it. There are way more neutrals using FW plexes to find PvP than there are FW players. It seems that people who don't have anything to do with FW and haven't signed up for one of the militias are having a substantial effect on faction warfare. To me, that just doesn't seem right.

So, I propose that FW plexes be limited to active FW participants. I'm not saying that neutral pirates shouldn't fly in faction warfare space or shoot faction warfare people but the locations that are designed to provice FW players with meaningful pvp should be limited to just that, FW pvp.

If people want the easy to find pvp of FW (inside plexes) they should join FW.

Now, I'm new to this and have very few skill points so I might be missing something that means that neutrals are needed inside Faction Warfare plexes so if this is the case, please could someone explain to me why?

***

EDIT - After discussion the suggestion has been altered to:

1) Make all FW plexes only appear on the overview to FW participants. For all non-FW participants the FW plexes show up as scannable sites so it they have a probe launcher and probes they can find them but otherwise they can't.

2) Make all FW plexes cause no sec status degradation for attacking first. This puts both FW and non-FW parties on an even footing where initiating combat is concerned.
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-03-25 09:27:32 UTC
Neutrals are not "needed" inside of FW plexes, but rather are free to go wherever they want just like everybody else. Lowsec is not an arena for FW, it's an area of space where FW occurs but is generally designed around being a pirates territory. There is no reason to arbitrarily restrict players from plexes just because they are not on one side of FW or the other.

Basically, neutrals like me have a right to make you explode, and we don't want it taken away.

Also, INB4 "It's this thread again" comment.
Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-03-25 10:03:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Elshar Khandar
Gigan Amilupar wrote:
Neutrals are not "needed" inside of FW plexes, but rather are free to go wherever they want just like everybody else. Lowsec is not an arena for FW, it's an area of space where FW occurs but is generally designed around being a pirates territory. There is no reason to arbitrarily restrict players from plexes just because they are not on one side of FW or the other.

Basically, neutrals like me have a right to make you explode, and we don't want it taken away.

I'm not debating your right to make me explode. I'm debating your right to enter FW plexes specifically. The gates limit ship types so they can clearly limit whether the person is an active FW participant or not. So far I've been attacked by pirates more than 90% of the time in plexes and 100% of the time outside of plexes in FW systems. All I'm suggesting is that pirates be limited from entering plexes so that at least some of FW is actually FW. You'd still get to kill people everywhere else which a lot of the pirates do already. I simply don't see why, other than because you want an easy source of easy kills, neutrals should be allowed into FW plexes. If the number of neuts didn't massively outnumber the number of FW players it wouldn't be so bad but at the moment, from a new player's perspective, FW isn't really about FW.

Gigan Amilupar wrote:
Also, INB4 "It's this thread again" comment.

Hmm... I've done a search of the forum for other threads regarding this and couldn't find any. Could you point me in the direction of the other threads you're talking about please?

EDIT - If this change was implemented the use of warp core stabs would probably significantly drop as well.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-03-25 10:11:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
this does come up fairly often actually and I see no reason why any one player group should have their own private area. Should miners have their own mining belts where they can't be ganked? Haulers have secured space lanes they can use in safety?

If one group are vulnerable to neutrals then all groups must be. FW players also have the advantage that they are already fit for PvP combat, the indy folks only have the option to run as fast as their little WCS will carry them...
Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-03-25 10:26:52 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
this does come up fairly often actually

Could you point me towards the past threads on this then please? I don't seem to be able to find any.

Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
and I see no reason why any one player group should have their own private area. Should miners have their own mining belts where they can't be ganked? Haulers have secured space lanes they can use in safety?

If one group are vulnerable to neutrals then all groups must be. FW players also have the advantage that they are already fit for PvP combat, the indy folks only have the option to run as fast as their little WCS will carry them...

It's about balance and playability, not fairness.

In a war the largest threat is your enemy. It's not pirates. It's never been pirates and at the point the largest threat is pirates the war should cease to be called a war really. I mean, it's like the US and Russia going to war with each other and discovering that the Somali pirates outnumber them 8 to 1. It's just dumb.

Now, I do see your argument that there shouldn't be any private areas. I do agree with that. It makes sense with the rest of EVE and I can see that if this were made an exception for FW it's a slippery slope to miners and pvers getting safe pockets to play in. However, as I said, from a new player's perspective FW needs something doing to address the imbalance regarding neutrals overshadowing the actual FW forces in FW plexes. So, if neutrals can't be banned (for good reason) how about either FW participants getting buffs in plexes or Neutrals getting nerfed when in FW plexes? This would increase the likelihood of FW participants actually fighting neutrals (something I've read a lot of complaining about) and reduce the amount of neutrals just using FW for easy kills of weaker players. Neutrals can still fight FW players in FW plexes but the FW players have an advantage but an advantage they only have over neutrals, not other FW participants.

How does that sound for a compromise?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-03-25 10:33:19 UTC
In compromise terms I think I'd rather FW plexes be turned into a nullsec pocket. Then if someone comes into your area you have the option to open fire on them immediately. If it is a war zone base I would expect there to be 'Do Not Enter - Trespassers will be shot' signs everywhere. If neuts are still an issue then you need more FW players in a group to defend the area.
Optimo Sebiestor
The New Eden School of trade
Organization of Skill Extracting Corporations
#7 - 2014-03-25 10:36:21 UTC
In my expirience With factional warfare, its only rigth that anyone can be allowed to enter the plexes. I've had this discussion With alot of diffrent types of fw players. The one thing we could agree on, was to remove factional warfare plexes Direct warpin for non factional players. What this would mean is that any players not in FW, they would see that the system is part of the factinal warfare and who it belongs to, and if various states. They would not see the plexes or ihub on their overview. They could however probe Down a player inside a plex and get into the plex this way. The plexes would only be hidden and not closed to the regular players. The sites could pop up as ded signatures, probe scannable for regualrs, and not Direct warpin.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#8 - 2014-03-25 10:36:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Don't you think that's a little bit one sided? If you want FW-exclusive FW plexes, I want deadspace missions to be exclusive for the mission runner and their fleet members, and DED plexes to be exclusive to those people who entered the first room first (if they stay in the plex). Roll

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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-03-25 10:38:49 UTC
Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2014-03-25 10:46:11 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Previous discussion topics that either touched on this or were basically saying the same thing:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4320181#post4320181
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4380988#post4380988
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4355063#post4355063

Thanks for that. To be fair, none of those are actually about the same thing. Close but not the same. The one where I posted what is pretty much the same as this OP of this thread is because I was in the process of derailing that guy's idea so created another thread for my idea instead of continuing to derail his. I believe this is what we're meant to do.

But I get your point. You and the other forum regulars read similar things on a semi-regular basis. This isn't altogether surprising though. There are only so many possible ideas and only so many iterations of each of those.
Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-03-25 10:46:58 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Don't you think that's a little bit one sided? If you want FW-exclusive FW plexes, I want deadspace missions to be exclusive for the mission runner and their fleet members, and DED plexes to be exclusive to those people who entered the first room first (if they stay in the plex). Roll

Yes, I do think it's a bit one sided which is why I suggested an alternative once it had been pointed out to me.
Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2014-03-25 10:49:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Elshar Khandar
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
In compromise terms I think I'd rather FW plexes be turned into a nullsec pocket. Then if someone comes into your area you have the option to open fire on them immediately. If it is a war zone base I would expect there to be 'Do Not Enter - Trespassers will be shot' signs everywhere. If neuts are still an issue then you need more FW players in a group to defend the area.

Hmm... that's not really a compromise :) That's just making things even easier than they are at the moment for neuts and having even less reason to join FW. At the moment the fact that the ratio of neutral pirates to FW players is on the pirates side is an indication that the situation is already biased towards the neutral pirates. My latter suggestion is designed to address this. Your suggestion is designed to merely further your aims, not address an imbalance. Nice dig though :)

EDIT - I've just realised that I might be missing your point. What you're suggesting means that FW players could attack neutrals in plexes without sec status hits so that might actually be a good compromise after all. If this is what you meant, please accept my apologies for misunderstanding.
Silverbackyererse
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2014-03-25 10:51:48 UTC
Elshar Khandar wrote:

EDIT - If this change was implemented the use of warp core stabs would probably significantly drop as well.


Sif. Lol
Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-03-25 10:52:58 UTC
Optimo Sebiestor wrote:
In my expirience With factional warfare, its only rigth that anyone can be allowed to enter the plexes. I've had this discussion With alot of diffrent types of fw players. The one thing we could agree on, was to remove factional warfare plexes Direct warpin for non factional players. What this would mean is that any players not in FW, they would see that the system is part of the factinal warfare and who it belongs to, and if various states. They would not see the plexes or ihub on their overview. They could however probe Down a player inside a plex and get into the plex this way. The plexes would only be hidden and not closed to the regular players. The sites could pop up as ded signatures, probe scannable for regualrs, and not Direct warpin.

This is a decent idea and I suspect it would be a lot easier to implement than my latter idea. It gimps the neutrals as it forces them to fit a probe launcher and allows FW players who are paying decent attention to know someone's coming. This could reduce the use of WCS, address the imbalance between neutrals and faction warfare players in FW plexes and also adds another skillset needed for plex piracy. I like it!
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-03-25 11:02:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
Elshar Khandar wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
In compromise terms I think I'd rather FW plexes be turned into a nullsec pocket. Then if someone comes into your area you have the option to open fire on them immediately. If it is a war zone base I would expect there to be 'Do Not Enter - Trespassers will be shot' signs everywhere. If neuts are still an issue then you need more FW players in a group to defend the area.

Hmm... that's not really a compromise :) That's just making things even easier than they are at the moment for neuts and having even less reason to join FW. At the moment the fact that the ratio of neutral pirates to FW players is on the pirates side is an indication that the situation is already biased towards the neutral pirates. My latter suggestion is designed to address this. Your suggestion is designed to merely further your aims, not address an imbalance. Nice dig though :)

EDIT - I've just realised that I might be missing your point. What you're suggesting means that FW players could attack neutrals in plexes without sec status hits so that might actually be a good compromise after all. If this is what you meant, please accept my apologies for misunderstanding.


No dig intended :) I don't fight in FW and I don't enter those plexes or pirate on other people. I see my suggestion as totally balanced as it makes everybody equally able to shoot everybody else with no security standing risk. If you are in space and rigged for combat you should be more prepared for it than most.

I agree with making the sites need to be scanned down though, then when you warp to them you receive a pop-up bax in the same way as with DED sites, but warning you that by entering the site you are declaring yourself a combatant. Warp-in points should follow standard mechanics for anomalies.

Just saw your edit and yes that was my thinking.
Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#16 - 2014-03-25 11:04:54 UTC
[quote=Elshar Khandar]I've only been doing faction warfare for a short amount of time but something seems a bit off with it. There are way more neutrals using FW plexes to find PvP than there are FW players. [/quotweren't those created to generate pvp among players?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-03-25 11:11:40 UTC
One point just occurred to me...in RL warzones are rife with mercenaries...Eve is actually just reflecting this to a greater degree since most capsuleers would be defined as Privateers at best...
Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2014-03-25 11:14:23 UTC
Hairpins Blueprint wrote:
Elshar Khandar wrote:
I've only been doing faction warfare for a short amount of time but something seems a bit off with it. There are way more neutrals using FW plexes to find PvP than there are FW players.
weren't those created to generate pvp among players?

Yes, correct. My point is that if you want pvp there isn't currently a decent reason to join FW over just being a neutral. If you're in FW you screw your standing with half of the Empire space and if you shoot first you screw your sec status to boot. If you're neutral you just screw your sec status which you can get back by buying tags. So it's more sensible, if you want pvp, to be a neutral.

So with the aggregated suggestions here, ie making plexes only show on the overview to FW players and neuts having to scan them coupled with making the inside of FW plexes not cause any sec status or standing losses would mean that there are enough reasons to join FW to make it a bit more balanced, in my opinion.
Elshar Khandar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2014-03-25 11:17:54 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
One point just occurred to me...in RL warzones are rife with mercenaries...Eve is actually just reflecting this to a greater degree since most capsuleers would be defined as Privateers at best...

Correct but in RL it's been exceedingly rare, if ever, that privateers or mercentaries have outnumbered the actual armies of warring nations. Also, they're generally in the pay of one side and therefore part of the war. In EVE, the neutrals are generally neutral unless they're neutral alts helping their FW mains (or FW alts as the case may be). So the definition of "pirate" seems most apt.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-03-25 11:19:32 UTC
I would certainly agree with those changes, The sites are still open to everyone, but neutrals have to work to get in and have to fight on an equal footing.
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