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Wardecs Need Changes

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Elmonky
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2014-05-15 16:45:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmonky
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:


But 'professional' PVEers would disagree with you.


How do you know that when I havent said what it is you should do instead of docking up?

Please tell us, then. Big smile I'm not defending any position here, actually I'm interested in highsec players' ideas on what seems to me a bit of a 'grey area' game mechanic.


Id rather keep my strategies for preventing wardecs being a meaningful threat to myself, thank you


Oh, come now.

Watchlist the war targets. Watch local and/or D-scan. Use a Micro Jump drive the moment you enter a mission pocket, so you are 100km away from the warp in point. Be on comms and in fleet to have backup ready.

The end.



You made me +1 Kaarous. Shame and fie upon you.

Also what Kaarous said. Being the victim of war deccery can be a chore. The simplest tactic is to scatter or have a retreat HQ/Corp office/unofficial hidey hole. Or jump into low sec. Or unsub.

edited for failspelling
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#102 - 2014-05-15 16:48:11 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:

So as long as people are not silly with their target selection for wardecs, we should stop seeing "wardecs are meaningless" threads since you can select a target with something to defend instead of corp with nothing to defend.


Oh if only

The last three decs we have got were from stupid little cheese-stained peckers who want to kill our slave-miners

They dont even bother attacking the proper assets

Its pathetic really


Are those deccers whining about wardecs being meaningless?
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2014-05-15 16:48:49 UTC
Amund Aldent wrote:
I feel they are being abused by mercs and griefers who have made highsec their home and simply choose to pick on people weaker than themselves.

I now have an answer for you too, OP.

I don't know the merc community but if, as you assert, some mercs are really mainly 'picking on weaker people' indeed they suck a bit.

BUT

In EVE your spaceships are NOT meant to be always 'protected' by CONCORD. They are actually meant to blow up often, whether you're a newbro or a vet, even in highsec.

All new players should learn basic threat identification and evasion techniques. It's a pity that even established corps suggest or demand people to stay docked up. They are doing new players a great disservice.

Corps deccing new players, while maybe not showcasing incredible pvp prowess in these specific occasions, serve the fundamental function of encouraging new players to learn basic survival techniques, that are ESSENTIAL to their EVE well-being, even if the plan to always stay in highsec.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#104 - 2014-05-15 16:51:08 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:
If wardecs are such a misnomer to you and ramona why do you argue so much to protect them as a way to allow for free high sec ganks? Not only do you defend them but you want to increase the gank potential by locking players into a dec by not allowing them to dodge

If your goals are truly more pvp give people something to fight over. If you build it they will come.

Organic, thanks to the kind help of evasion-savvy highsec PVEers I have the answer for you.

Highsec should be renamed midsec. There is no highsec in EVE.

Flying any spaceship in 0.5-1.0 space with nothing to fear except suicide gankers is the exception, not the rule.

In EVE, you are not forced to learn to shoot, but if you want to fly a spaceship you absolutely need to learn to identify and evade threats.

Anybody can dec your corp for any or no reason, and you need to learn to survive. It's not that hard, by the way.

Reason for this is - probably - to make EVE PVE slightly less soul-crushingly boring. Though I would suggest just PVPing as a remedy for that.

NPC and one-man corps to evade wardecs are a silly mechanic that hopefully CCP will get rid of ASAP.

At this point, my only issue is CCP not being clear enough about the importance of evasion in highsec. When I make a new alt I often spend some time to help out new guys in Rookie Help, and I've noticed they're very confused about this. I will do my best to educate them as much as I can.


It's not so much for me as i've learned the hard way about wardecs, it almost caused me to quit years ago but i got over it.... Many don't. My issue is they aren't a war, they have little to do with actual fighting.

Maybe we should rename wardecs to concord free gank tickets?

Give players a reason to fight, and lets get the pew pew started.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#105 - 2014-05-15 16:51:12 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:

Da fuq? Yes i agree how is this different from what i suggested? The only difference is my proposition prevents those 5 man gank corps from decing someone like eve uni to blast noobs.


What's wrong with deccing E-Uni? If anyone is big and well organized enough to teach their new players to do things right, it's them.

I mean, you actually have a problem with a tiny little corporation declaring war on one of the largest corps in highsec? Seriously, dude.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#106 - 2014-05-15 16:51:15 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:

Organic Lager wrote:
Why not in order to declare a wardec the declaring corp needs to set up a player owned tower worth x millions instead of the dec payment to concord. If it falls the war is ended. Wouldn't this be more enjoyable for all parties involved?


No, because POS bashes are not enjoyable


I honestly cannot comprehend the mind of someone who thinks that what this game needs is more structure shooting.


Merely suggesting a way to get everyone out of their hiding holes and fighting each other.



What you're really trying to do is impede play styles that you dislike. You're cognizant of the reception you would get if you just came out and said that, though, so instead you're trying to mask it with the most thinly transparent disguise that ever was.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Audrey UntzUntz
Doomheim
#107 - 2014-05-15 16:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Audrey UntzUntz
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Amund Aldent wrote:
Not at all. If it costs more to wardec each target exponentially you wouldn't get corps with 46-75 war decs every week. You would actually start seeing true war dec mechanics the way they were intended, and not just griefer corps war deccing people who they see in trade hubs.


The point remains that, as the defender in a wardec, it is completely voluntary to participate.

Until that is fixed, you don't get to talk about nerfing wardecs.

Illogical. They are both problems with the wardec system and thus they both need to be addressed. Your gameplay style isn't the only gameplay style that matters.


Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh, and as for "intended":

They were intended to allow you to attack someone without the interference of CONCORD, for a fee, with 24 hours notice.

That's it. Anything else is just you projecting your thoughts onto the developers, which is an entirely illegitimate argument.

The intention of wardecs was to create emergent gameplay stemming from conflicts in empire space. You are confusing the definition of wardec with the intent.

.


If we continue down the path of forcing industrial groups of players into wardecs, the game will continue to have 1/10 the population numbers of other MMO while being a better game than all of them.

You guys are being overly idealistic if you think a group of 30 industrial players who've been wardecced for 4 weeks will end up fighting you. They won't, they'll quit and you'll have less content overall than if they'd have not been wardecced and slowly gotten into the PVP aspect on their own.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#108 - 2014-05-15 16:54:42 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:

Da fuq? Yes i agree how is this different from what i suggested? The only difference is my proposition prevents those 5 man gank corps from decing someone like eve uni to blast noobs.


What's wrong with deccing E-Uni? If anyone is big and well organized enough to teach their new players to do things right, it's them.

I mean, you actually have a problem with a tiny little corporation declaring war on one of the largest corps in highsec? Seriously, dude.


I also have trouble with this statement tbh. E-Uni most likely wants decs so they can use the targets as "free" teaching tools.
Elmonky
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2014-05-15 16:55:06 UTC
Audrey UntzUntz wrote:
The intention of wardecs was to create emergent gameplay stemming from conflicts in empire space. You are confusing the definition of wardec with the intent.

.



Intent is irrelevant - mechanics > all
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#110 - 2014-05-15 16:56:28 UTC
Audrey UntzUntz wrote:

The intention of wardecs was to create emergent gameplay stemming from conflicts in empire space. You are confusing the definition of wardec with the intent.

.


Yes but like many things its use has come to differ wildly for its intent

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#111 - 2014-05-15 16:58:10 UTC
Audrey UntzUntz wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Amund Aldent wrote:
Not at all. If it costs more to wardec each target exponentially you wouldn't get corps with 46-75 war decs every week. You would actually start seeing true war dec mechanics the way they were intended, and not just griefer corps war deccing people who they see in trade hubs.


The point remains that, as the defender in a wardec, it is completely voluntary to participate.

Until that is fixed, you don't get to talk about nerfing wardecs.

Illogical. They are both problems with the wardec system and thus they both need to be addressed. Your gameplay style isn't the only gameplay style that matters.


Nah, you know what's illogical? Thinking that putting up walls to wardecs, or any kind of player content, is a good thing, ever.

All it does is crowd out the little guy. The smaller corps and most especially the new players. The only thing you would accomplish is to have enormous wardec alliances pooling their resources together, instead of smaller disparate groups.

You're asking to literally create the Blue Donut, for real, in highsec.

Forgive if my default response is "nope".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#112 - 2014-05-15 16:58:14 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Are those deccers whining about wardecs being meaningless?


Not sure what you are saying here....

But it is the defender's job to make them as meaningless as possible

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2014-05-15 16:58:56 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:
It's not so much for me as i've learned the hard way about wardecs, it almost caused me to quit years ago but i got over it.... Many don't. My issue is they aren't a war, they have little to do with actual fighting.

Maybe we should rename wardecs to concord free gank tickets?

Give players a reason to fight, and lets get the pew pew started.

People will fight if they enjoy it. That's the only reason.

CONCORD free-gank tickets would be a correct name for non-consensual wardecs, yes.

All EVE players, new and old, should be well aware that in highsec they need to learn to evade both suicide-gankers and concord free-gank tickets.

Evasion is necessary, fighting back is a discretionary option.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Elmonky
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2014-05-15 17:01:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmonky
The declaration of the war is the creation of content.
I personally am not a huge fan of wars in general, BUT I can see why they are popular.

Mercs, ISK crazy billionaires, CODE or whoever, War decs are there simply to create a target rich environment for SHOOTING THINGS IN THE FACE. Which you know... is kind of part of the game - no matter how much it is hated on.


It's posts like these that make me see sense in the whole carebear hatred. Even though I never leave High sec


edited for WTF grammar
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#115 - 2014-05-15 17:03:18 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:

People will fight if they enjoy it. That's the only reason.

CONCORD free-gank tickets would be a correct name for non-consensual wardecs, yes.

All EVE players, new and old, should be well aware that in highsec they need to learn to evade both suicide-gankers and concord free-gank tickets.

Evasion is necessary, fighting back is a discretionary option.


http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1392/88/1392883513045.gif

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Lady Areola Fappington
#116 - 2014-05-15 17:06:27 UTC
You say problem, I say working compromise.

Some people would rather we totally do away with wardecs, and make everyone attackable everywhere, free PVP.

The other side would rather we have firmly partitioned off "safe" and "not safe" areas.

The wardec system provides a decent enough system to indulge both sides. Sure, the attacker can attack, but the defenders can render the entire issue moot by dropping to NPC corps.

It just seems that every time a "Wardec too stronk nurf wardec" post pops up, the proposed "fix" always seems to leave the person proposing it in a much more secure position. "Sure, lets keep wardecs, but change them so they aren't as much of an impact to my style of play!"

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#117 - 2014-05-15 17:09:18 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:

Da fuq? Yes i agree how is this different from what i suggested? The only difference is my proposition prevents those 5 man gank corps from decing someone like eve uni to blast noobs.


What's wrong with deccing E-Uni? If anyone is big and well organized enough to teach their new players to do things right, it's them.

I mean, you actually have a problem with a tiny little corporation declaring war on one of the largest corps in highsec? Seriously, dude.


I do, i've been in the uni under wardec and know what the policy is? Leave and come back when it's over or don't go outside unless you're fleeting to look for pvp, but you probably wont find any.

That i feel defines the issue with wardecs. The decing corp is just looking for that one guy who didn't follow the rules to abuse.

As for a pvp learning experience, i learned how to sit out side a station for an hour waiting for someone to undock. I also learned how to jump through 50 high sec gates.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#118 - 2014-05-15 17:13:08 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:


That i feel defines the issue with wardecs. The decing corp is just looking for that one guy who didn't follow the rules to abuse.

As for a pvp learning experience, i learned how to sit out side a station for an hour waiting for someone to undock. I also learned how to jump through 50 high sec gates.


Good for you

So if I choose not to participant in your pointless war, how do you plan on forcing me to?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#119 - 2014-05-15 17:25:44 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:

Organic Lager wrote:
Why not in order to declare a wardec the declaring corp needs to set up a player owned tower worth x millions instead of the dec payment to concord. If it falls the war is ended. Wouldn't this be more enjoyable for all parties involved?


No, because POS bashes are not enjoyable


I honestly cannot comprehend the mind of someone who thinks that what this game needs is more structure shooting.


Merely suggesting a way to get everyone out of their hiding holes and fighting each other.



What you're really trying to do is impede play styles that you dislike. You're cognizant of the reception you would get if you just came out and said that, though, so instead you're trying to mask it with the most thinly transparent disguise that ever was.


Yes i dislike the "ganking" play style as it forces players into something unwinnable, one side ends up with all the risk and butt hurt with zero chance at any form of a reward. Wardecs are just a disguise to say it's ok to gank.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#120 - 2014-05-15 17:27:54 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:


Yes i dislike the "ganking" play style as it forces players into something unwinnable, one side ends up with all the risk and butt hurt with zero chance at any form of a reward. Wardecs are just a disguise to say it's ok to gank.


So... are you saying you want them to be removed?

If a ten man corp decs another ten man corp, and the targets DONT want to fight, how do you feel this should resolve itself?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann