EVE Technology Lab

no, this is not a thing to discuss. For us ( wh pvpers) this intel is essential, we do need it everyday, its general channel to get information about pvp possibilities, so removing it...is like making PvE paradise for every cap group, and saying to PvPers: Hey guys, we do NOT care about you and your activities, we do not need you in wspace-go find other places for pvp. Before even thinking about removing this intel, remove local in some other areas, so we would have some place to leave, otherwise its just -11 accounts only from me.

So lets answer a few questions:



Your software relying on it is basically why we are doing this. This is information that you guys using software outside the game get a huge advantage over those who do not. CCP by design specifically did not include a map of WH space, and we specifically did not include this information in the client.

Earlier we removed jumps for WH systems from the API. Removing this was something that should have been done then.



No.



This was looked at from a design point of view, and it was the design department that agreed to this. I did not just have an idea while standing in the shower and then decide to do it without first consulting others.

This information helps only those who know how to access it, and it helps them in a dramatic way. This information is also counter to our design for WH space. This information is also primarily helpful to one group, the invaders while being incredibly counter helpful to the defenders.

This idea was also discussed with the CSM. I brought it up with the existing CSM briefly and after posting have been in chats with members of the upcoming CSM 9. So yea, thanks for thinking I didn't talk to anyone. :)



See above, this information helps one side far more than the other, this information is not available in the client, and this information is counter to the design of WHs.



I am currently hoping next week, but we will see if this discussion changes my mind.



Yes we very much should if we believe that it is counter productive. We have a history of breaking tools when we believe they have gone to far.



You don't have a nice in-game map because part of the design for WH space is that you do not. Giving those with access to the ability to create tools and advantage over those that do not is NOT what the API is for. While there are many cases of this being true elsewhere, this is a very big one.

To your point on this information being removed from all of space, and I will repeat this, this information was specifically designed NOT to be there for WH space. It is meant to be there for the rest of space.

I really have to second this opinion, we rely on this information in our every day life to find our way through the unknown space, to take it away is the equal to taking away local chat in nullsec without any meaningful discussion from CCP. We literally use this information to decide how we spend our day, how we scan out a chain of WH's, whether or not we roll away an uninhabited chain to look for more inhabited space.

We already live in the unknown space don't make us completely blind living in it also, its just not worth the extra effort for no reward from us, it just wouldn't be anymore there is no other way i can put that.

This deserves some decent discussion on why you think it is too powerful for us to have and not just "will be removed when you have the time" and "you will have a hard time convincing me otherwise". Try actually asking the people that live in WH space that your one major change has the effect it will on our gameplay.

Ok, the thing is... while there are some that can exploit this better than most, the bears still make a hell of a lot of ISK farming wspace. If they lose a fleet once in a while because of this "exploit" then the've experience the risk versus reward phenomenon ubiquitous throughout Eve. Everyone knows wspace is rough territory. The bears know it's rough territory and have come and adapted anyway. Why make it this much easier for them?

Sounds like we need to go back to pencil and paper again guys. CCP doesn't like it when we use any tools that give us an advantage.

OMG! WTF dude... this is removing the KILL COUNT! This has NOTHING to do with your ability to generate maps with siggy and such. i don't know where this confusion is coming from but yea... no... keep making your maps, thats fine, I don't care. Thats cool and everyone at CCP, that I have talked to, is cool with that.

What we are not cool with is you guys have the number of pvp kills, pod kills, and NPC kills for systems and the historical information on that.

Big difference. But yea, guess you can go back to pen and paper if you want.

Null sec is allowed to because by design that information should be there. By design this information should NOT be in WH systems.

So your idea behind removing kill API data is because CCP's software design model is flawed and the people in charge do not want to spend money we pay you to play the game you developed that is missing client side code to display info you already have been tracking for 6 years. And your response is to remove this data from outside access so you don't have to spend money to fix the EVE client to show what the community has stepped up and done for you?

I think this is a prime example of why CCP as a company has continued to use it's own shortcoming as an excuse to avoid development expenses. Saying "We are removing it because we don't include it in the client" is a statement that should never be said to begin with.

PVP and pod kills are both available via the zkillboard API, which includes historical data and is better than 95% accurate I would guess.

So it's just a question of NPC kills.

I'm sorry but what? So because the data from the api is used by a webtool which, fyi, everyone that has any sort fo presence in WSpace uses, you're going to remove it because it gives an advantage over..who exactly?

Other than nullbear daytrippers who would get 0 use out of the tool anyway, you could honestly use your same logic to ban Siggy.

This is a Removal-local-from-nullsec tier game change and from the sound of it it wasn't even discussed with any sort of Wspace entity, what's next, c5 sleepers no longer dropping blue loot?

I'm 50/50 on this. This intel is great but it's way powerful information. I have a write up in the WH forums about my first carrier kill that came about purely because I decided to hang out in a WH after seeing a small, couple of npc bump on StaticMapper that indicated miners of some sort. Without it I wouldn't have hung around and may have missed it.

But by the same token, the fact that I as a hunter can tell what's happening from afar like that is extremely powerful. An up to date mapping tool gives you, what, an hour delay at most from someone in your chain doing something violent. And the fact that you can see exactly what said violence is from anywhere is very potent.

Can I suggest a halfway compromise. For wormholes just mark a straight yes/no for the hour tick, regardless of NPC, Ship or Pod. That way it's still an alert, content creation still happens, but we have to actually go see what it is.