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EVE API and Public CREST discussion

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Koban Agalder
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#201 - 2014-05-06 13:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Koban Agalder
CCP Prism X wrote:
So.. as the former API guy and member of Team Bifröst, the team that made the wormhole space; You were never supposed to be able to see this data. If it's not in the client it cannot be in the API because the same information should be available to everybody playing this game. Nobody is supposed to get a decisive advantage because they have access to data other people have no means of availing themselves to.

The fact that we screwed up and forgot to sanitize the API calls does not change that design.

Now stop being mad at FoxFour, he's a delicate lotus blossom. You can be mad at me for forgetting this in the first place when I was creating WH Space and thus giving you false expectations. Please direct all angry rants to foxfour@ccpgames.com.

Thank you and have a nice day!


Blaming himself for rage.. and then putting foxfour's email as a sink for all rage emails :D

such evil :D Boss from the dilbert would be proud of you sir!

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org 
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#202 - 2014-05-06 13:10:03 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Now stop being mad at FoxFour, he's a delicate lotus blossom. You can be mad at me for forgetting this in the first place when I was creating WH Space and thus giving you false expectations. Please direct all angry rants to foxfour@ccpgames.com.

Thank you and have a nice day!

10/10 good sir ;)

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#203 - 2014-05-06 13:10:51 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
So.. as the former API guy and member of Team Bifröst, the team that made the wormhole space; You were never supposed to be able to see this data. If it's not in the client it cannot be in the API because the same information should be available to everybody playing this game. Nobody is supposed to get a decisive advantage because they have access to data other people have no means of availing themselves to.

The fact that we screwed up and forgot to sanitize the API calls does not change that design.

Now stop being mad at FoxFour, he's a delicate lotus blossom. You can be mad at me for forgetting this in the first place when I was creating WH Space and thus giving you false expectations. Please direct all angry rants to foxfour@ccpgames.com.

Thank you and have a nice day!


I'll get Winthorp right on it.

You know he's getting the FoxFour medal for getting a Dev angry with him :P

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#204 - 2014-05-06 13:11:44 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
Let me repost this since I have a feeling it will be lost in flood

"
As for game design - why not consider "NPC kill count" as the data sleepers report to players or concord? They pretty advanced and surely can do that. Especially in C5 C6 wormhole space. You cant expect sleepers to die silently. They want revenge!

I guess its one of the situations where a "flaw" is a feature and made the WH the place it is and should be.

Otherwise you

1) Will remove about trillions of isks of PVP per month from the game. An effect of this will be similar to Jita burn... but in reverse way

http://eve-kill.net/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=7341
http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_ext_id=98091693

and thats just our 2 of wide list of WH active groups

2) Kick on the stomach all WH PVP alliances. in fact, you will kill some of them. WH PVP will be almost dead, especially for some timezones.

3) Make it safe for RMT players to farm in WH space. I guess you can calculate how ratters safely making 1 plex per 10 min will affect EVE economy and how do they use that insane flow of isks.
"

are you REALLY so incompetent that you can't find targets without API info?
i feel bad for you son...

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Miriam Hanomaa
Rogue Inferno.
Pandemic Horde
#205 - 2014-05-06 13:13:38 UTC
You're acting like this isnt a big deal, and basically telling most WH folks that they have been playing the game wrong for 5 years and here is a blanket fix to make things 'better'.

Everyone so far has not complained about "muh NPC kills", people know the risks of logoff traps and still do sites.

You can design a game, but if something has been part of it for such a long time, it basically becomes part of it. Removing it with the reason 'we forgot to remove in the begin deal with it nomad guys' is a joke, and basically a kick in the theeth for every W-Space resident that uses this.

I regard W-Space as the most finished area in new eden (fix pos + black hole), and a change that affects the very nature of W-Space pvp to be implemented asap with only a small post about it seems like a very bad move.
John Caldr
State War Academy
Caldari State
#206 - 2014-05-06 13:18:03 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:

are you REALLY so incompetent that you can't find targets without API info?
i feel bad for you son...


https://www.zkillboard.com/corporation/98303242/

https://www.zkillboard.com/corporation/98091693/

We killed 2000 (two thousands) times more with a lot better efficiency.
Seems you not my father...
MaxDEL
Quantum Explosion
#207 - 2014-05-06 13:18:12 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
John Caldr wrote:
Let me repost this since I have a feeling it will be lost in flood

"
As for game design - why not consider "NPC kill count" as the data sleepers report to players or concord? They pretty advanced and surely can do that. Especially in C5 C6 wormhole space. You cant expect sleepers to die silently. They want revenge!

I guess its one of the situations where a "flaw" is a feature and made the WH the place it is and should be.

Otherwise you

1) Will remove about trillions of isks of PVP per month from the game. An effect of this will be similar to Jita burn... but in reverse way

http://eve-kill.net/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=7341
http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_ext_id=98091693

and thats just our 2 of wide list of WH active groups

2) Kick on the stomach all WH PVP alliances. in fact, you will kill some of them. WH PVP will be almost dead, especially for some timezones.

3) Make it safe for RMT players to farm in WH space. I guess you can calculate how ratters safely making 1 plex per 10 min will affect EVE economy and how do they use that insane flow of isks.
"

are you REALLY so incompetent that you can't find targets without API info?
i feel bad for you son...



we do what we can, and we do it better than anyone

Disabling API kill PVP in wormholes and give birth farm NPCs
CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#208 - 2014-05-06 13:21:34 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Prism X
Miriam Hanomaa wrote:
stuff


By that logic we should never change anything in EVE. No expansions, no releases, no changes. As changes would always be changing something that is already a part of the game (and in most cases were supposed to be a part of the game at some point in time unlike these stats).

I'm sorry, I understand you don't like this change. Personally I don't like many changes that have happened to me. Growing old and fat isn't terribly exciting I can tell you. But the only alternative to constant change is stagnation and if you've tasted stagnant water you know that isn't very desirable!

And we're not going to shut down all EVE development. Things will be in a constant state of flux for quite some time. It's pretty much our vision to get New Eden to the state of perpetual change from player activity.

CCP Prism X

Programmer on Team Gridlock & Expert Ranter
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#209 - 2014-05-06 13:23:30 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Unfortunately they don't let me touch art assets. :( If they did I am sure I could get you some epic pink mohawk. :D

Hack them while the art people are on lunch!

Well, pink mowhawk isn't exactly what I had in mind (we can already do the mowhawk thing), but mostly what we need are a larger variety of bangs. Imagine the current ponytail style like mine, but with little bangs or braids hanging down the sides of the face. Perhaps some exaggerated fringes even.

You get the idea Big smile

Also, legs. To take outfits truly to the next meta we need short skirts or shorts, even just have it so that the trouser layer isn't needed when wearing a low hanging top. Imagine the possibilities - leg tattoos, hosiery. Imagine the revenue and xmas bonuses from all that cash scrubs like me will be hurling your way to buy all this stuff.

Anyway, I'll leave it with you before I start on lighting and poses.

CCP FoxFour wrote:
One of the biggest things we expect this to impact is log off traps. Most people I have talked to before posting this idea agreed that this data was most valuable for finding people to log off trap. People also agreed it was marginally helpful in finding live fights, but not very helpful in that way and most agreed they could easily find a way to adapt.

Really log off traps?

I've never perpetrated one, or been the victim of one. I know it happens though, but really to a scale worthy of making such a change? Are wormholers dying in swathes to logoffs. Haven't seen or heard anything like that to make me think it'd need to be nerfed.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate ツ Full-Time Supermodel

▷ worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕ ▷ вσss
Miriam Hanomaa
Rogue Inferno.
Pandemic Horde
#210 - 2014-05-06 13:27:16 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Miriam Hanomaa wrote:
stuff


By that logic we should never change anything in EVE. No expansions, no releases, no changes. As changes would always be changing something that is already a part of the game (and in most cases were supposed to be a part of the game at some point in time unlike these stats).

I'm sorry, I understand you don't like this change. Personally I don't like many changes that have happened to me. Growing old and fat isn't terribly exciting I can tell you. But the only alternative to constant change is stagnation and if you've tasted stagnant water you know that isn't very desirable!

And we're not going to shut down all EVE development. Things will be in a constant state of flux for quite some time. It's pretty much our vision to get New Eden to the state of perpetual change from player activity.


There is a difference between a blanket change and nothing in return like this, and an expansion which removes and adds stuff into the game.

If you make a mistake in an expansion/patc and hotfix that, I'm all for it, but when this has existed for so long, it has become a part of almost every WH PVP entity's playstyle. When you make such changes, it feels a bit weird that you do it in a forum post deep down in this forum, and not in a devblog.
samoubica2008
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#211 - 2014-05-06 13:29:28 UTC
John Caldr wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:

are you REALLY so incompetent that you can't find targets without API info?
i feel bad for you son...


https://www.zkillboard.com/corporation/98303242/

https://www.zkillboard.com/corporation/98091693/

We killed 2000 (two thousands) times more with a lot better efficiency.
Seems you not my father...

Im going to take that as a yes ))))
Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#212 - 2014-05-06 13:30:31 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Miriam Hanomaa wrote:
stuff


By that logic we should never change anything in EVE. No expansions, no releases, no changes. As changes would always be changing something that is already a part of the game (and in most cases were supposed to be a part of the game at some point in time unlike these stats).

I'm sorry, I understand you don't like this change. Personally I don't like many changes that have happened to me. Growing old and fat isn't terribly exciting I can tell you. But the only alternative to constant change is stagnation and if you've tasted stagnant water you know that isn't very desirable!

And we're not going to shut down all EVE development. Things will be in a constant state of flux for quite some time. It's pretty much our vision to get New Eden to the state of perpetual change from player activity.


By your logic, wspace is no place for pioneers. Wspace was never intended to be inhabited. Gonna prohibit towers from being anchorable in wspace soon?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#213 - 2014-05-06 13:31:04 UTC
Is there a chance for this to be rolled out simultaniously with the *delayed k162-sigs* in the wormhole-sticky?

If you reduce the amount of instant-intel, please add a small dscan-window to compensate :D
Miriam Hanomaa
Rogue Inferno.
Pandemic Horde
#214 - 2014-05-06 13:32:33 UTC
On the point of logoff traps - this is basically the only way right now to kill a farming fleet that pays attention to new sigs spawning.

If you make this change happen, and I've tested it on the test server so I know what I'm talking about, it is possible to earn 1400M / hour with 5 people multiboxing a few caps / subcaps, running 10 sites per hour, 2 at the same time. This is without risk.

Think about it. Yes this is hugely imbalanced - yet you're making this happen. Was this, too, supposed to be in WH space from the start?
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#215 - 2014-05-06 13:32:39 UTC
Miriam Hanomaa wrote:
You're acting like this isnt a big deal, and basically telling most WH folks that they have been playing the game wrong for 5 years and here is a blanket fix to make things 'better'.

Everyone so far has not complained about "muh NPC kills", people know the risks of logoff traps and still do sites.

You can design a game, but if something has been part of it for such a long time, it basically becomes part of it. Removing it with the reason 'we forgot to remove in the begin deal with it nomad guys' is a joke, and basically a kick in the theeth for every W-Space resident that uses this.

I regard W-Space as the most finished area in new eden (fix pos + black hole), and a change that affects the very nature of W-Space pvp to be implemented asap with only a small post about it seems like a very bad move.


Honestly the more I think on it the less I think it's a big deal. I do enjoy knowing I can log off in system for a few hours, come back and chances are there will be someone there. But again, that's intel I'm not earning. It's a cheap go here for pew beacon.
CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#216 - 2014-05-06 13:33:47 UTC
Miriam Hanomaa wrote:
When you make such changes, it feels a bit weird that you do it in a forum post deep down in this forum, and not in a devblog.


No argument here.

Just because we can push things out quickly for the API now doesn't mean we always should. But there's also the counter-point to that. Since we can we should in some cases. But at the very least this should probably have been posted in a new topic here.

But that doesn't change the fact that no info should be available in the API if it's not available through the client. That doesn't change even if we forget some data for a decade or two. That has always been one of the most important rules of developing the EVE API.

CCP Prism X

Programmer on Team Gridlock & Expert Ranter
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#217 - 2014-05-06 13:37:16 UTC
Excellent change. This should allow entities without a significant amount of web tools to be able to use wspace without having their existence stand out like a beacon to bored, entrenched powers who abuse wormhole rolling mechanics to strike at them with overwhelming force, then collapsing the hole so there is no possibility for counterattack.

Stiff upper lip, CCP Foxfour -- don't let the whining get to you.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#218 - 2014-05-06 13:42:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Querns wrote:
Excellent change. This should allow entities without a significant amount of web tools to be able to use wspace without having their existence stand out like a beacon to bored, entrenched powers who abuse wormhole rolling mechanics to strike at them with overwhelming force, then collapsing the hole so there is no possibility for counterattack.

Stiff upper lip, CCP Foxfour -- don't let the whining get to you.


If you're gonna farm in wspace, use the tools to ensure your own "safety". How *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal. does that sound? Changes to make farming Sleepers safer... *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal.

You know what this change is going to do instead? It's going to incentivize evictions again. I promise you.
Valterra Craven
#219 - 2014-05-06 13:45:37 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Miriam Hanomaa wrote:
When you make such changes, it feels a bit weird that you do it in a forum post deep down in this forum, and not in a devblog.


No argument here.

Just because we can push things out quickly for the API now doesn't mean we always should. But there's also the counter-point to that. Since we can we should in some cases. But at the very least this should probably have been posted in a new topic here.

But that doesn't change the fact that no info should be available in the API if it's not available through the client. That doesn't change even if we forget some data for a decade or two. That has always been one of the most important rules of developing the EVE API.



So um here's an idea, instead of taking a feature away that almost all of these people use (and when I say people I am NOT talking about myself since I have literally never been inside an icky wormhole), you add a feature and make the data available in the client.... that way everyone wins.... or you could continue down your current road and **** people off for no reason. (I already know which road you are going to take)
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#220 - 2014-05-06 13:46:08 UTC
Hidden Fremen wrote:
[quote=Querns]It's going to incentivize evictions again. I promise you.


So BU, Qex & Co. going for a wild eviction rampage after this change has been pushed through, this will be interesting :D