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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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Author
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#721 - 2014-03-28 22:44:49 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Alternatively in C5/6 space make it so the next incoming wormhole spawns on grid with the most recently escalated site (or random selection if theres more than one recently escalated) would make things a bit interesting hehe.
oooh, on-grid WH.... theres an interesting idea...
Vladislav Intakki
ZDN Corporation
Brothers of Tangra
#722 - 2014-03-28 22:50:40 UTC
ccp uses narcotics. awful patch
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#723 - 2014-03-29 00:56:48 UTC
C5/6 wormholes have become deeply stagnant, predictable and, frankly, dull. Everything is known, everything is mapped. I don't what the answer is but pissing about with minor changes to the WH spawn dynamics is not it.
urfkd
Expotato Scriptor
#724 - 2014-03-29 04:14:14 UTC
Well I think there are more important things to fix in W-Space.

Beside the awful POS system and corp rights, why not simply hiding the sig until someone jumped trough the WH?

I mean, if you guys are looking to increase the PVP opportunities.. just make wormholes more attractive for outsiders.

And while you're at it, why not removing local in nullsec?
Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End
#725 - 2014-03-29 04:39:39 UTC
Haven't read through the threadnaught but as a frequent poster in this forum here we go:

The old way was livable; anybody smart was spamming probes anyways, so it was only a slight change for us hunting wise.

I think delaying the signatures gives a huge advantage to PVP players, because there's literally nothing you can do to prevent it. Even running combat scanner probes constantly, there's still a chance they could sneak in and cloak up and you could miss them; and d-scan wouldn't be reliable for things out of range. This would greatly benefit my hunting style, but that doesn't mean it's the right choice to make for wormhole space.

The longest the delay should be is 20-30 seconds; 2 minutes is an eternity for a good scout. If you implement this kind of change, you need to take a serious look at delaying local in null-sec, because they don't even have to try out there with local, and if you're challenging that K162s instantly popping is too easy, then instant local when you're 40 jumps from the nearest Empire space is definitely BS.

We've frequently tossed around the idea in corp that local should be delayed or non-existent in null unless you install upgrades, forcing null-seccers to upgrade systems they want to have good visibility in. But that's escaping the original post a bit.

Don't delay the sig 2 minutes; it's an unfair advantage catering to PVPers, which is not the purpose of creating neutral ground.

Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.

Patient Zero1
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#726 - 2014-03-29 07:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Patient Zero1
As a former member of a notorious WH farming alliance, and now a member of a notorious PVP corp......

I'd have to say that adding a delay to it showing up on the overlay would be fine, but anyone smart enough to have active probes out scanning for new sigs, shouldn't experience any delay(some kind of disconnect from your d-scan menu and the overlay..? hell i dunno). If you're decent, hunting people doing some farming at this point isn't really too hard. So basically, if someone is spending the time and effort to be aware of whats around them, they should be able to, if they're mindlessly farming and not paying attention...well then screw 'em.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#727 - 2014-03-29 08:40:55 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Alternatively in C5/6 space make it so the next incoming wormhole spawns on grid with the most recently escalated site (or random selection if theres more than one recently escalated) would make things a bit interesting hehe.

yeah, im sure that's exactly what people want, to scan a new WH, jump through and be in the middle of 20 sleeper BSs and a half dozen hostile dreads....
ffs, use your brain.

There is no Bob.

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Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#728 - 2014-03-29 08:50:11 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Alternatively in C5/6 space make it so the next incoming wormhole spawns on grid with the most recently escalated site (or random selection if theres more than one recently escalated) would make things a bit interesting hehe.

yeah, im sure that's exactly what people want, to scan a new WH, jump through and be in the middle of 20 sleeper BSs and a half dozen hostile dreads....
ffs, use your brain.

on behalf of SSC, i can honestly say we would want that...

But seriously, its a quirky mechanic to be considered in some form. Maybe add some trigger into escalations that has a chance to open a hole between escalated grid (100-200km?) and some other random hole of the same class?
QT McWhiskers
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#729 - 2014-03-29 09:21:23 UTC
Dunno if this has been stated yet, not reading through 23 pages of spurging. But this kind of change would completely change the game of rage rolling. For those that dont know, rage rolling means rolling the static wormhole looking for a specific class. Like say when lead farmers were invaded. Hard Knocks wormhole is a c5-c5 wormhole. So is leadfarmers. Since there are 500 and some change c5 wormholes, if we roll our static enough, statistically we will eventually reach it.

In the past, rage rolling against people who are on the ball about scanning new sigs has been a very slippery slope. When your scout warps in and reports you have the correct hole, enemy scouts are already scanning this sig. This gives us less than a minute to jump our fleet in and get off grid before being overwhelmed by enemy subs and caps. In fact if a bubble goes up before the majority of the fleet makes it in, then the effort has already been for naught.

But with these new proposed changes, you significantly increase the time we have to move our fleets in. Even if it is only 1 minute, that is enough time to warp our fleet to the hole, jump in, and get to safety even webbing a few caps off grid and into safes for the defenders to start giving us pos passwords. Now they will have to rely on combat scanning, which is much harder. Even then when they do get us at 100 percent, we are already warped to random safes so that we can get into a pos.

This significantly boosts rage rolling and pretty much makes the defense of a wormhole come down to will the rage rollers actually get the connection. Because with these changes, if they do connect, the defenders will have a massive advantage.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#730 - 2014-03-29 11:22:07 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Alternatively in C5/6 space make it so the next incoming wormhole spawns on grid with the most recently escalated site (or random selection if theres more than one recently escalated) would make things a bit interesting hehe.

yeah, im sure that's exactly what people want, to scan a new WH, jump through and be in the middle of 20 sleeper BSs and a half dozen hostile dreads....
ffs, use your brain.


Guess the way I was meaning it didn't convey very well over the internet - wasn't exactly a serious suggestion more of a flippant if we are going to make changes lets stir it up proper.
Jasper Goodal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#731 - 2014-03-29 11:42:00 UTC
I think it's a bad idea. This patch will make scanning less effective in regions, where scanning is must-have to survive. Some time ago onboard scanners began to find sleeper anomalies. Okay. But I think timer to find K162 is fully unneccessary thing. Because of instant target locking from bombers after decloak. WH citizens will have no opportunity to protect themselves against PVPers from K162.
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
#732 - 2014-03-29 11:42:47 UTC
Terrible idea. The amount of cross holes I get has already gone up significantly in the last year or two, which I am sure is intentional on CCP's part to increase pew. All well and good, but now it is pretty common for me to have 2 or 3 cross holes, and a nulsec or random losec AS WELL AS the static in my C3.

This happens 4 or 5 days a week. Don't you think that keeps me on my toes?

And now you want to give invaders several minutes of free time to bring in entire fleets with no warning whatsoever?
Since they could form up on their side of the hole, and all click enter at once, and then have enough time to warp to a safe spot before being scanned even by an active combat probe scanner. (Scanned down, not just detected)

Pretty much everything in the last year or two has been in the favour of the ganker. Shouldn't the defender have at least a few seconds of warning, or does CCP believe blob vs. unaware outnumbered persons constitutes "PVP" ?

Invaders might as well be shooting npc's for all the risk they take already.
Giving them even more of an advantage is just ridiculous.
After Shok
Ruthenia Co
#733 - 2014-03-29 11:59:28 UTC
CCP Fozzie -
Before you do anything with the scanning system, repair the bugs. I talked about this with CCP Leeloo, but as I understand she is not redistribution.

Правдой нельзя оскорбить, уважаемый адвокат!

Тот самый Мюнхгаузен

Золотая орка

Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#734 - 2014-03-29 19:46:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mal Nina
Been watching my corps WH activity since this thread started.

In that time not once when rolling our static was the other side doing escalations or just finishing a site. There were pos's in every WH we encountered and in only a few cases was there any activity. For instance the first chain today had more than 15 WHs in it with virtually no activity and that included the C5 with one of the larger WH corps in it.( no one was really home)However, we did get a site running fleet by exploring and moving down the entire chain. We did roll into a piñata and while we looted there was one person on line who watched us.

if you want PVP you can find it, but have to search. So it seems to me this change is being pushed by lazy PVPers who want to just roll from the relative safety of their home WH until they find a fleet so that they can gank. Some of the most fun I have had and seen my corps mates have is when exploring and finding things deep in the chain and ending up in a brawl with multiple corps. I admit that most of the time the corps does NS roams, but even with these some NS WHs are left alone because those areas of NS are boring for them.

seems to me that what we need is more content so more times corps will be out of their home base.

The other argument I see being made in an offhand way is that there is too much ISK being made depressing market prices. Well, it takes about one siege cycle of the dreads in our escalation fleet to take down a fully escalated C5 site. With that sort of speed you make lots of isk and reduce the chance of other corps even finding you making isk. Out of an entire week the corps might have ships in sites for 6 hours. Now think about the chances of running into us while we are site running( 6 out of 168 possible). Now extrapolate the chance you will have against a well run operation in taking it down given mass limits on WHs. As has happened to us in the past the WH was simply rerolled while we remained on site. If we roll into a comparable fleet with home field advantage even the most ardent of our PVPers are going to ignore it, suicide is just not worth it. So for those of us that can farm our anoms we do it quickly and pretty much with total autonomy that this proposal does nothing to address. All it does is make it so we cannot respond to the opening of the WH before it is closed. ISK streams also increased due to that nice Gas harvester we all wanted. Of course some of the decrease in isk is also due to the nerf on the tengu and the lack of T3 use outside of WH space (supply and demand)

So how do we fix?
Get rid of escalations!. Face it we know how to milk these for all their worth in the larger corps.
Make it so sites cannot be farmed!
Lower the number of sleeper anoms so that corps have to explore and set up shop outside their home system more often to get ISK and increase the respawn rate so they do not all end up in that Black hole system no one wants to be in.
Add more hidden content that requires scanning. Ore sites, gas sites, ice sites, ghost sites. You may have to make them smaller so the impact of having more is decreased.
The key here is to get corps moving which will help with your fights as you call them. Make both sides (carebear and PVPer) have to work for the game they want.
Make blackholes a place that you might want to set up shop in so that sites get activated there Smile
Make sure T3s have value outside of WH space and in PVP so demand remains strong.


I make good money with the escalations fleet so this is not an easy proposal to make. But the current proposal being made just makes for bad gaming all the way around. No one wants to die in a firefight they had no chance against. We have a fight or flight mechanism wired into our brains for the reason, not being able to engage it will just lead to frustration which will lead to a reduced player base which is exactly what we do not want.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#735 - 2014-03-29 20:19:12 UTC
Mal Nina wrote:

So how do we fix?
Get rid of escalations!. Face it we know how to milk these for all their worth in the larger corps.

So... remove the primary source of income that makes living several holes deep into WH space a viable choice for a large group that might spend 5-15 Bil a month in POS fuel and require hauling in a few million M3 of fuel, ships, ammo, etc on a regular basis in order to PvP and fuel towers, and leave them effectively destitute?

Oh yes, I'm sure that removing the primary income of all of the high level groups is a great way to make sure that there is a substantial population in WH's.

I'm sure that as soon as home site anoms drop to a fraction of their value, corps won't do something like lose half their players that are now unable to support their PvP habits by living in a WH.

Removing 90% of the income of a group and forcing them to run c5 marauder teams or spread alts around several holes for personal PvE in NOT a good direction for WH's.

I'm guessing you make the vast majority of your money on an alt, or unrelated to escalations entirely.

Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#736 - 2014-03-29 22:38:32 UTC
Chopping off escalations is not the answer, but a modification to it would not hurt.

Escalations should be room based. Meaning that sites could be run without bringing out a capital to "escalate it".

Room 1, normal spawn, bonus room 2, a escalation spawn, bonus room 3, tietary spawn, (none needing capitals to spawn them). Make them warp points. Its not much of a modification but essentially escalations are wormhole bonus rooms. You can remove escalations and make it room based. This doesn't fix the issue of the pew though.

You need more people outside the shields and you need to make wormhole space have a greater value than salvaging wrecks.

Aka, you need wormhole loot (ship based modules that function subpar to t2 equipment, but function much higher when overheated (you have a wormhole blaster fit, can take t2 ammo, unheated, does less damage than the normal t2 blaster, heated, does more damage than a heated t2 blaster). Similar modules can be implemented with active tanking modules.

Relic and data sites should have no sleepers, but should have a warp bubble around it (more gank chances)

You really should not be able to crit a static (or collapse it) and make your wormhole completely isolated from all space by not opening the new static (it's not hole control, its total isolation, your own pretty pve dungeon).

You half mass a static, spawn a new wormhole,
Wormhole hits the reaches natural lifespan message, spawn a new wormhole.
If either has been reached and a new wormhole has already spawned, do not spawn a new static.

In all cases, at some point, you'll have 2 wormholes

There should not be way for a single person to totally lock down a wormhole (and rage rolling a new one ain't the answer either)

Is this less secure. You betcha. You'll have to carebear in your dead end system just like everybody else does, with a scout on the gate and a order to starburst if a unknown neutral or alt shows up.





Yaay!!!!

Sarai Caldera
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#737 - 2014-03-30 01:11:52 UTC
If players can enter a hole without having the hole show up, there shouldn't be a hole in that system.

I propose it goes like this, when a wormhole is formed it takes x minutes to stabilize. If you jump through before it stabilizes you get dumped in a random part of the system unable to get back until the wormhole stabilizes on your side. This would mean that people would be stuck and be scattered everywhere.
Zarthie Severasse
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#738 - 2014-03-30 13:41:40 UTC
Sounds like an awful idea that will make high class WH's even safer.

Without the ability to control home system, people will blob capitals on sites to ensure overwhelming invading forces.

Please leave the blob wars to where it belongs, to null sec.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#739 - 2014-03-30 13:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Phoenix Jones wrote:


You really should not be able to crit a static (or collapse it) and make your wormhole completely isolated from all space by not opening the new static (it's not hole control, its total isolation, your own pretty pve dungeon).

You half mass a static, spawn a new wormhole,
Wormhole hits the reaches natural lifespan message, spawn a new wormhole.
If either has been reached and a new wormhole has already spawned, do not spawn a new static.

In all cases, at some point, you'll have 2 wormholes

There should not be way for a single person to totally lock down a wormhole (and rage rolling a new one ain't the answer either)

Is this less secure. You betcha. You'll have to carebear in your dead end system just like everybody else does, with a scout on the gate and a order to starburst if a unknown neutral or alt shows up.





Even with control of your static you still have incoming wormholes and login traps, etc. to worry about. While my earlier idea in itself wasn't meant seriously there is potential for linking risk and reward with higher end content in all classes via some sort of change to incoming wormholes and/or some correlation between that and the actions of players within a system. Messing with statics imo isn't the answer. (And neither is messing with sigs that can't be probed which feels like a hacky broken "fix" at best).
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#740 - 2014-03-30 15:20:51 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
CCp , I applaud the idea of making wormhole space a little more active, there is much of merit, and some existing problems that restrict it.

Hiding incoming wormholes will do nothing to improve things, and in fact will cause harm to the overall life of it's inhabitants.

There is no such thing as risk free farming in wormholes. It can work for a while, There are those that try, but eventually BOB shows them otherwise.

Risk is an accepted part of wormhole life and even when taking all precautions things can still bite you in the ass in any class of wormhole, so please disregard this thought, it is simply an old wives tale.

However, one of the things that is often lacking is as simple is the amount of traffic, sometimes it can be like being on the end of a country track.. That can change in a hurry however with interesting effects.

So do not implement any part of the OP suggestion in any form but do all of the the following together...

1. Add an additional static to every class of wormhole.
2. Make all sites in wormholes require scanning.
3. Remove on screen sensor sweep in all classes of wormhole.
4. Identify each type of signature on first core or combat scan pass.
5. Retain scan results when jumping holes and returning while in same ship.
6. Increase spawn rate of wandering wormholes by 10%
7. Make black holes wormhole superhubs with many many wandering incoming connections,Leave their stats otherwise unchanged.
8. Single 10 second flash of dscan window when k162 is first opened.
9. The value of blue loot and improved opportunities for gas and ore sites (new product with a npc purchase value) would be needed to balance the significantly increased losses incurred as a result of these changes. Note: not to provide an increase of overall rewards.
The entire combination will increase traffic and prevent an excessive increase of easy kills of the alert, while giving additional opportunities to engage in combat/baiting as well as ensuring the benefit continues of an alert active play methodology.
.

In summation if all these changes occurred together then this would make wormhole life more active, encourage people to travel further, encourage more destructive interaction. In combination this will be balanced to increase gains and losses in equal amounts without disrupting the market by using npc purchases to balance the overall changes. Npc price value can be adjusted to maintain equilibrium and level of interaction.

Please note in isolation almost all of these changes would be massively out of balance and destructive.
Only in combination as an overall rebalance could this work.
Please do not be tempted to pick and choose and only accept some. Great harm would result.......

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE