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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

First post First post First post
Author
Bloemkoolsaus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#701 - 2014-03-28 13:33:36 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
sigs should not auto pop up on scanner but they should always be probable.


This. Really simple Big smile
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#702 - 2014-03-28 13:59:13 UTC
So how long do have to wait for a minor change (delayed automagical wh sig popup)? 5 expansion cycles?
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#703 - 2014-03-28 14:00:43 UTC
Bloemkoolsaus wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
sigs should not auto pop up on scanner but they should always be probable.


This. Really simple Big smile



I would actually like to see the Discovery Scanner merged somehow with DScan so that you only have to mash one button to check for new sigs anywhere in the system (but with normal dscan range limits for everything else). How's that for an interesting idea?

Then I wouldn't have to go to all the trouble of diverting a pilot to a boring probe spamming activity or having to do it myself on an alt, forcing me to spam two buttons which is just crap gameplay. I mean I'll do it, and so will anyone else who wants to live, but I somehow doubt the market is going to compensate me for the trouble in terms of the improvement to loot values.

Anyway, gameplay wise, I would prefer only having to mash one button on one account to help protect my fleet from ganks.
Lilli Tane
Deu-La-Deu
#704 - 2014-03-28 14:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilli Tane
Sniped from the OP

CCP Fozzie wrote:
....
We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.
...


This paragraph worries me,“but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs”, this trick requires someone to be actively vigilant, and constantly scanning for new signatures, i don't know what CCP plans are but please, don´t make more changes that will penalize active play over passive play.

If a fleet is for example running sites, someone will spend all the required time to run such sites spamming the probe scan button to know if a new signature pop up, it’s not something doing automatically and requires player attention.

Odyssey, automated this process, by updating all the signatures in a system automatically, consequently, removing the edge of being actively vigilant over being passive, and so penalizing corporations that used the active system before (something that I want to believe it was just overlooked at the time).

second snipe from the OP

CCP Fozzie wrote:

...
The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.
...


Making a change that will place a delay on signatures, bout on the sensor overlay and on the active probe scanning, will further penalize being active vigilant.

I don’t know what will come up of the changes, or how they will affect W-space, one thing I’m sure, whatever system comes out of it, should always give an edge on players that are actively keeping watch.

As always, the game mechanics should reward those that actively play the game.
Oscar Lon Anderson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#705 - 2014-03-28 14:23:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Oscar Lon Anderson
As a fairly new full time wspace resident, the non probable K162 looks bad. I wouldn't mind it not appearing on the discovery scanner as I'm mostly relying on probes/dscan to know what's around me.

For me probes should give an indication of every exits in the hole. If I'm mapping down my chain it'll slow me down as I won't be able to tell the sig N° I just created until the delay expires in the hole i just opened.

If you're dead set on delayin the K162 probing, make the delay apply to their very existence and thus their appearance on grid too: no going back for K162 spawners until the K162 sig shows and the K162 hole appears on grid. This way it's coherent system-wide, there's just an entrance from another system in that system, no exit in this one.

TL;DR Not fond of shröedinger's K162 which half exists only for some people.
Nash MacAllister
Anomalous Existence
Wrong Hole.
#706 - 2014-03-28 15:12:54 UTC
36 pages already, yikes.

So an idea that may or may not have been covered already. Give the K162 side a spawn delay, but also give the originating side a "Stabilization Delay" for large mass transits. Allow an initial wh transit to be VERY mass limited, say 1 cruiser or something, or less. The mechanic would work such that the scanners (small number, small ships) could jump into the wh before the K162 appears, scout any potential targets during some random and short time period, and have a fleet staged and ready to go once the wh stabilized. But, once it stabilized, it would immediately show up on dscan/overlay. This IMHO would promote active gameplay and perhaps introduce some danger back into WH life. It would also promote and showcase the capabilities of your fast and light tackle due to the recent warp changes. Active PVE'ers could catch this before the enemy fleet was on them, but only if they were paying proper attention. Well organized and aggressive attack fleets would be promoted as well, made up of multiple ship classes to facilitate the trapping and holding of the target fleet.

Just some thoughts that I have conjured up, my apologies if this has already been covered in whole or part earlier in the thread...

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...

Alundil
Rolled Out
#707 - 2014-03-28 15:51:46 UTC
First - I really f***ing hate this forum software CCP - it blows majorly and loves to eat posts. Talking "Sarlacc's Pit" level of suckage. And the draft function is almost equally useless and whyTF are there two post buttons when making replies grrr ccp forums grrrr (I feel a little better now)


Lilli Tane wrote:
Sniped from the OP

CCP Fozzie wrote:
....
We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.
...


This paragraph worries me,“but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs”, this trick requires someone to be actively vigilant, and constantly scanning for new signatures, i don't know what CCP plans are but please, don´t make more changes that will penalize active play over passive play.

If a fleet is for example running sites, someone will spend all the required time to run such sites spamming the probe scan button to know if a new signature pop up, it’s not something doing automatically and requires player attention.

Odyssey, automated this process, by updating all the signatures in a system automatically, consequently, removing the edge of being actively vigilant over being passive, and so penalizing corporations that used the active system before (something that I want to believe it was just overlooked at the time).


I completely share the concern you have regarding the bolded part of that passage. If Fozzie/CCP has other ideas on how to improve w-space I'm sure we'd all love to hear/read them so that we can discuss pros/cons of "all the things".

However, when the only idea released to the public is this one and it comes with the implied "...well the other things we thought about are less good than this..." it simply smacks of "We prefer this idea because (insert reason) and are going to implement it regardless." This has happened before, many more times than once (in fact discovery scanner is one such instance....how funny that we should find ourselves here again....again).

Hopefully CCP realizes that if they want this change to succeed then honest, transparent and open communication and publishing of proposals must happen (NDA permitting goes without saying).

I'm right behind you

HIOIIIA
Doomheim
#708 - 2014-03-28 16:32:44 UTC
сср, are you crazy?)) why?
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#709 - 2014-03-28 17:02:28 UTC
I'd agree with jack - sigs should always be probable by any party when useable by one or more - auto popping up on scanner doesn't really bother me either way but it would be more in the theme of w-space if they were delayed there.

If the k162 side didn't spawn until someone actually jumped it would be a bit of an improvement there and give people less time to safe up.

Alternatively in C5/6 space make it so the next incoming wormhole spawns on grid with the most recently escalated site (or random selection if theres more than one recently escalated) would make things a bit interesting hehe.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#710 - 2014-03-28 17:40:36 UTC
I'm not a part of your system! I threw it on the GROUND!
ORK31
KAPITAL18
#711 - 2014-03-28 18:03:13 UTC
задолбали эти бараны, придумали снова какую то хрень
Howen
Sp4ce T3ch
#712 - 2014-03-28 20:02:08 UTC
First think, it's a game it's not an mouse click fest.CCP Do you really know how much stupid repetative action your game dev dilever us?Planetary interaction was a CLICKFEST. Scanning and probing is a CLICKFEST TOO.Especially direct scan.
Capital fleet in c6 and c5 is sitting duck .No matter how hard you will try but if k162 With welcome flleet (20 t3 2 dreads 1 triage carrier)open it''s dead anyway( or maybe you have 20 dreads in your home system?). So maybe when wh emerge it will be like a cyno for 2min.
Caps are in siege small ships are tackled by sleepers.So what for? did Aperture harmonics pay you to pull this?Or maybe blood union? Let's make a blob more effecient in gank again?When apocrypha introduced wormholes it was like a sanctum for a small teamed corps.Now we have an alliencies there with flying systems.Wanna pvp reopen your hole up to infinity times a day.If you wanna make a challenge to them make a sleeper titan which can 1 shot their dreadnoughts.Make them pay a price it's a DANGEROUS place.More people more chance to spawn titan.Or maybe sleeper camps?Try to get off your box.We need more ships we need more tank.
Bussan
Kabukicho
#713 - 2014-03-28 20:36:37 UTC
Yeah, let's make it more dangerous with some illogical new ideas, so people will just leave wh completely. First the so called carebears, because they won't be able to do anything... then pvp/pve ones, that cannot get enough isks to replace lost pvp ships... then pvp-only ones, because they will be the only ones roaming around, and 90% of them never look for a real fight (pvp vs pvp) and just wanna get kill mails... but with desert wormholes they won't have any target.

So WH space will go back to what it was meant to be at the beginning... a place where people will go for daily trips, aware that they can easily loose their ships... but how many will actually risk that?

With the proposed new system, there is just no way to defend yourself from an aggressor, because you have no way to know they are out there. Unless they are so stupid to show up on d-scan, or start using probes.

So the only things people will actually be able to do with a moderate safety will be gas/data/relic sites. Nothing else.
Just because they have to be probed, and at least you can span dscan for unknown probes trying to probing you or your sig.

I'm not sure that the only way to make WH life better is making life easier for gankers....
Already mining got killed moving belts on anoms (yeah, some people still mine, but they do it aware that sooner or later they will be podded. Because even if they can see new sigs spawning, honestly if an inty spawned the k162, and then warp to all the ore anoms, they will likely catch the miners before they leave.)

I don't get why most of the changes done in EVE have to be made to increase or make easier the pvp. Go on like that, and many people will just do other things, or stop playing. My corp for sure would leave W-space if these ideas will pass.

I think that to increase pvp in wh, the best way is to have more people coming in them, both to "live" there or just for daily trips.
More people = more chances of fights. Because W-space IS already dangerous... you are never 100% safe out there.
Add content, add loot, add some cool things people will want to do/get/try... don't change mechanics that are already working, unless you really improve them, keeping in mind all the aspects of them game, not just the pvp part.

Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#714 - 2014-03-28 20:46:25 UTC
I know we've reached "dead horse" status, but I did get quite a few mails for an article on this subject, so here it is:

[No-Local News] Signature Delay | My Opinion

Please feel free to comment, like, share, whatever you want, and thanks for continuing to read!

Minister of High Society | Twitter: @autoritare

E-mail: diogenes.proc@gmail.com

My Blog: http://diogenes-club.blogspot.com/

The Diogenes Club | Join W-Space | Down The Pipe

AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#715 - 2014-03-28 20:57:18 UTC
Rroff wrote:

Alternatively in C5/6 space make it so the next incoming wormhole spawns on grid with the most recently escalated site (or random selection if theres more than one recently escalated) would make things a bit interesting hehe.


I remember the old drug and alcohol free Rroff - He didn't make much sense either but he was a lot easier to cuddle.
Le sigh.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity

Atum' Ra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#716 - 2014-03-28 21:37:04 UTC
As for me delay the appearance of the signature beacon is not a good idea at all. Better make something for player which want to live there, but don't want to push scan every 3 sec.

p.s. One good idea: give player the ability to construct gate on WH (the gate must be destroyable). After that many people will settle there.

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#717 - 2014-03-28 21:43:02 UTC
Bussan wrote:
Yeah, let's make it more dangerous with some illogical new ideas, so people will just leave wh completely. First the so called carebears, because they won't be able to do anything... then pvp/pve ones, that cannot get enough isks to replace lost pvp ships... then pvp-only ones, because they will be the only ones roaming around, and 90% of them never look for a real fight (pvp vs pvp) and just wanna get kill mails... but with desert wormholes they won't have any target.



Its something that sometimes people don't seem to be able to see in this game and I think this idea is somewhat down that road - you can't force people to be your targets, change the game rules to bully them and they will just quit or find something else to do.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#718 - 2014-03-28 21:44:35 UTC
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:
Rroff wrote:

Alternatively in C5/6 space make it so the next incoming wormhole spawns on grid with the most recently escalated site (or random selection if theres more than one recently escalated) would make things a bit interesting hehe.


I remember the old drug and alcohol free Rroff - He didn't make much sense either but he was a lot easier to cuddle.
Le sigh.


It wasn't really a serious suggestion.
Tvashnar Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#719 - 2014-03-28 22:09:56 UTC
The originally proposed change seems rather poorly thought out.

The only way a wh occupant can identify a new k162 is by having probes out and scanning down the sig; a new sig in the scanner window can be any one of several different sites. In order to cope with the proposed change, the wh pilot need only switch from core probes to combat probes (if he wasn't already using them) and watch for new ship sigs.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#720 - 2014-03-28 22:18:01 UTC
Tvashnar Crendraven wrote:
The originally proposed change seems rather poorly thought out.

The only way a wh occupant can identify a new k162 is by having probes out and scanning down the sig; a new sig in the scanner window can be any one of several different sites. In order to cope with the proposed change, the wh pilot need only switch from core probes to combat probes (if he wasn't already using them) and watch for new ship sigs.


An equally poorly thought out idea, since a ship can jump through a WH, move off the hole, and cloak in less time than the lowest probe cycle time on a max skill char with implants.