Player Features and Ideas Discussion

So there I was…

I was in a stealth bomber fleet composed of 150 players. We were accompanied by a 100-player conventional fleet of battleships and below. Our mission was to destroy an enemy iHub with torpedos.

Shortly after being bridged into system and arriving on grid with our target, a single enemy showed up in local, then a cyno appeared and a local spike of hostiles followed quickly after.

“Cloak up and take fleet warp,” the bomber FC commanded. I followed the order and hit the cloak button.

To my relief, our bomber fleet escaped. We landed 100km off a stargate in system. Everything went as planned. That was until a stray bomber landed late on grid. The bomber forgot to cloak during warp.

What followed was a chain-reaction decloak (the bomber landed within 2000 meters of a cloaked bomber, which decloaked it. The newly decloaked bomber then decloaked another bomber within 2000 meters. This uncloaked another bomber… and so on.)

Shortly after our bomber fleet was bubbled and wiped from the field. A clean victory for our adversaries.

EVE is a great game which enables a single player to have huge impacts in the game. With that said, this particular story highlights a deficiency in the tactical aspects of fleet warfare. What is the deficiency you ask?

The lack of formations.

It doesn’t make tactical sense for -every- fleet (regardless of composition or role) to -always- land on grid in a disorganized and chaotic sphere. The fleet commander should have some control over the size, orientation, spread, etc. of the fleet as a whole. Here are a few ways this could be implemented:

-Let the FC set the default warp-in range for particular squads (i.e. squad 1 will warp at 0, squad 2 will warp in at 50km, squad 3 will warp in at 30km, etc.). That way, ships with similar weapons/optimals could be grouped together by squadron.

-AND/OR Let the FC set the default warp-in range for particular ship types . i.e. battlships at 50, interceptors at 0, logistics at 60, etc.

-Let the FC position certain types of ships (or particular pilots) at specific locations throughout the fleet while landing on grid (i.e. cruisers fit with rapid light missile launchers could be distributed evenly throughout the fleet in order to provide protection against interceptors or other fast tackle. That’s just one example, but the possibilities are limitless).

-Let the FC set a default “spread” for the fleet, squad, and/or ship type (i.e. a tight formation for DPS ships (or whatever) a loose formation [of greater than 2000 meters from every other ship] for cloaked ships so that the mistake of a single pilot doesn’t cause a massive chain reaction decloak, etc.).

Furthermore, I think some mechanism which enables the fleet to maintain a decent formation after exiting warp (besides just declaring an anchor and setting orbit at 500 meters) for particular ship types makes sense as well.

Formations have been, and will always be, an important aspect of military tactics. The Roman legions organized themselves in formations to take advantage of the mutual support that individual soldiers provided to each other. Our modern Air Force continues to rely heavily on formations, both within individual flights of fighters/bombers as well as within the larger context of entire “strike packages” of aircraft performing specialized roles (Air Superiority fighters and SAM killers in front, followed by strikers (bombers and air-to-ground configured fighters), command and control assets [like the AWACS] further back, and tankers [like logistics ships] in the back). Furthermore, those assets are deconflicted by altitude, distance, or time (to prevent them from running into each other [much the way cloaked ships could be deconflicted in EVE])

All in all, I think EVE would be more fun if fleet formations were successfully implemented. It would add a layer of complexity and customizability to fleet combat which would enhance the richness of the experience.

Someone here remembers Homeworld :P

The idea of formations has been brought up in these forums before, but I'm not sure if we have seen a response from CCP before, so I don't know what kind of technical limitations or challenges they would be looking at to implement this. Based on the video from Fanfest two years ago which showed a more complex, RTS-style, command interface prototype, I suspect this is something they are at least considering.

Giving the FC the simple ability of setting default warp-in distances for individual squads would be a great start. Obviously, there are a lot of ways formations could be implemented (some more technical than others), but I think it would be easy to start implementing a few minor changes in the short term which would really enhance gameplay.

All in all, specialized ship roles don't really get to shine (and be as fun to play) as they should be when everyone just warps in as a haphazard sphere.

"Blob mechanics" (i.e. everyone warping in as an arbitrary sphere) doesn't make sense tactically. Specifically, why would every fleet (regardless of composition/mission/size) choose to warp in as a sphere? Why would you want a battleship with long range guns placed right next to a fast tackle ship? Why would you want your fleet of cloaked ships jam packed next to each other so if one guy messed up the entire fleet was exposed?

Furthermore, it makes fleet combat less fun. There would be so much more strategy if the FC had control over the formation of the fleet.

Wouldn't splitting the fleet up into smaller groups have minimized this to some extent…?

As with my previous response, this works in theory, but the mechanics of the operation are cumbersome. Which ultimately leads to it never (or very rarely) being utilized in game (which detracts from what could otherwise be great tactical decisions implemented in game).

Giving the FC the ability to set default warp-in ranges (and spreads amongst individual ships) for squads and/or ship types then selecting "warp fleet to zero" or "warp fleet at set ranges" to whatever point would enable a more realistic use of the mechanic.

blobbers gonna blob lol.


I was in the blob. You don't see this organization outside of skirmish crews sadly very often. As skirmishers, imo, tend to foster team flying with player tactics refined. Put anotheer way when you only have say 10 peeps in roam....you tend to need all 10 not being window lickers.

Why I usually -1 these ideas. Its generally on the blob and those in them that they they choose this route of bulk warp to and press f1. For whatever reason many blobs tend to not care about this stuff outside of prepping teams for AT.

NOt saying all of the blob has to be AT ready but.....most times they tend to focus on hot drop press F1 vice sponsoring getting good habits skirmish tends to foster. I did have some blob fc's spice this up however. Fleet BS' would get several warps ins. Caldari go to player A, minmatar go to player b, etc.

Specialists like bombers had there own fleet. Comms issue resolve by the basic undestanding of a chain of command. FC would say player D is your fc. PLease speak Player D.....player d speaks. THis voice and my voice are the only ones you take action on. Unless I counter his order....do what player D says like I was ordering it. People dicking up cloaking to wreck the run....thats by design.

Bombers are potentiall massive amounts of dps for marginal skills and costs (I have millions and miliions of sp to tweak my fleet bs' and now dread to get as much pain as I can from them). Thier catch is if flown poorly they tend to not be so great. This is by design. CCP learned from the mistake they made with easy to apply AOE in the era of aoe DD titans. These were idiot proof I win buttons. Drop in and boom. Then it was double and triple DD....and party over soon after lol.

That's what squad commanders are for.

Not to be all high-horsey or whatever, but if you seriously can't figure out how to delegate the simple task of getting individual wings or squads to their optimals, then you have no business being FC. Commanding the fleet is literally your entire responsibility, as is commanding the wing the responsibility of the wing commander, and the squad of the squad commander. Those already are the tools that enable you to warp squads to different locations. Use them.

I think if the FC's entire tactical repertoire consists of "orbit this guy at 500", then the problem is the FC, not the game, and the solution is to fix the FC, not the game.

I've never had a problem flying in bomber squads. Stuff like warping in at different ranges, moving away from the warp-in point to avoid bumping into each other, aligning to a heading instead of a point to you don't drift together, and so on, are all basic maneuvers that anyone can learn. Proper planning, tactical bookmarks, and a bit of practice are just a few of the things that you should be taking care of before you jump into a big hot ball of reds.

Finally, my little disclaimer that I seem to have to post every time this topic comes up:

I don't "hate fun" or think the game is "too easy" - the problem isn't that EVE is less difficult than before, the problem is that it requires less playing the game and learning to sandbox. "Aligning" was a real skill you had to learn in PVP. If you were good at it, you could warp out faster, make fleet warps more cohesive, and contribute to operations. If you were bad at it, it would slow down the fleet, and it could cause trouble. You had to actually make mechanical inputs involving choices and precision, and for better or for worse, your gameplay had an impact on the game.

Whether or not that sounds good to you, EVE is still intended to be a sandbox game, and that means having all the control and freedom of doing things from scratch.

How would making it easier for the FC to set the warp in ranges of individual squads/ship types make it less fun than telling everyone over voice comms "squad 1, warp to 0, squad 2 warp to 30" etc.?

That's like saying we shouldn't have hot keys. Everything should be accomplished via right clicking and navigating through multiple drop down menus. Or that there shouldn't even be a fleet warp function at all. Everyone should just warp on their own.

I just don't see how a built in formation function of some form would detract from fleet warfare (or for that matter how it wouldn't make it more fun than it already is). Furthermore, this notion that it would lead to "AFK" fights doesn't make sense to me either. I'm not suggesting that the FC should be able to operate modules on other players ships. I'm simply saying the FC should have more control over squad's/ship types orientation upon landing out of warp (and possibly after as well) rather than having to always use voice comms.

Julius Rigel is correct, the solution is to remove the ability for one person to control another person's ship.

You realize that your FC could have had his WCs warp their perspective wings to different safe spots because "warp wing" is a thing just like warp fleet is a thing. Why didnt he? Probably lazyness, or difficulty. If that is indeed the case, what makes you think that same person would take the time to even set up the sectioned warp like that?