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News: Operation Highlander Monument Unveiled on Caldari Prime

Author
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#121 - 2014-03-27 20:45:56 UTC
True enough. Bargaining chips don't come much weightier than Home.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#122 - 2014-03-27 21:57:45 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
True enough. Bargaining chips don't come much weightier than Home.


And yet they use it as a goad instead of like honey!

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Gregory Na'Dare
Doomheim
#123 - 2014-03-27 22:10:19 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
There can be no solution that ends in peace that does not guarantee the rights of Federation citizens on Luminaire VII.


We prefer to call it Caldari Prime or Home. You can dress it up like an unimportant planetoid, if you like, but it just makes you look ignorant.

Ignorant? That's what its called. If you insist on calling it something it hasn't been in over 200 years that's your problem.
Gregory Na'Dare
Doomheim
#124 - 2014-03-27 22:13:14 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
*pseudopolitical grandstanding*


Regardless. His point is clear, Mr. Tuulinen, The Federation citizens living on the planet should be guaranteed their rights for they have just as much claim to "Home" as do Caldari.

*more worthless grandstanding*


You both seem to be under the impression that Ishukone is incapable of getting what we want without breaking your laws.

You are capable of getting you what we allow you to have on Luminaire VII.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#125 - 2014-03-27 22:20:11 UTC
I keep forgetting that nothing any of us say on the IGS has any bearing or impact on what will actually happen.

Thank goodness for that! Or not.

I guess it depends on what really comes to pass.

Katrina Oniseki

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#126 - 2014-03-27 22:37:35 UTC
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
There can be no solution that ends in peace that does not guarantee the rights of Federation citizens on Luminaire VII.


We prefer to call it Caldari Prime or Home. You can dress it up like an unimportant planetoid, if you like, but it just makes you look ignorant.

Ignorant? That's what its called. If you insist on calling it something it hasn't been in over 200 years that's your problem.


It hasn't been called Luminaire VII, even by the Federation, since your astronomers discovered it was inhabited. It was never called that by us - and since we own most of the damn thing now...

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#127 - 2014-03-27 22:38:58 UTC
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
*pseudopolitical grandstanding*


Regardless. His point is clear, Mr. Tuulinen, The Federation citizens living on the planet should be guaranteed their rights for they have just as much claim to "Home" as do Caldari.

*more worthless grandstanding*


You both seem to be under the impression that Ishukone is incapable of getting what we want without breaking your laws.

You are capable of getting you what we allow you to have on Luminaire VII.


How nice for everyone that you're mysteriously feeling generous then, I suppose?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#128 - 2014-03-27 22:54:04 UTC
Speaking of goading...

Callous arrogance like this Na'Dare displays isn't going to be dispelled by reasonable arguments, nor by accurate sarcasm. Save it for the people whose opinions matter and can be changed.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#129 - 2014-03-27 22:59:51 UTC
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
Gregory Na'Dare wrote:
*pseudopolitical grandstanding*


Regardless. His point is clear, Mr. Tuulinen, The Federation citizens living on the planet should be guaranteed their rights for they have just as much claim to "Home" as do Caldari.

*more worthless grandstanding*


You both seem to be under the impression that Ishukone is incapable of getting what we want without breaking your laws.

You are capable of getting you what we allow you to have on Luminaire VII.

Of getting you what we allow you to have?... Never mind, I think the translation goofed. To put it more in perspective, your government sees what's far beyond this sort of limited thinking. Endless, costly warfare that the State is mentally equipped to endure as long as necessary. Ultimately, allowing the conflict to drag on will take a toll, if it hasn't already, far greater in both lives and resources than the world is worth. It's cheaper, easier, and faster to settle and give it up than it is to keep going, not to mention easier on the polls, come election day. All factors that compel a democratic government to set aside hubris and go to the bargaining table. Odd to say this, but thank the Maker for popular votes that marginalize the self-important declarations of the individually arrogant.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2014-03-27 23:40:28 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Callous arrogance like this Na'Dare displays isn't going to be dispelled by reasonable arguments, nor by accurate sarcasm. Save it for the people whose opinions matter and can be changed.

So we just treat him as a Gallente version of you-know-who and leave it at that, right?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#131 - 2014-03-28 00:19:45 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
James, we only control one side of the terms - the Federation controls the other side. I'm constantly amazed that you don't recognise this as your chance to put the State over a barrel in terms of negotiation. Want everything in Placid taken off the table? No problem. Want trade agreements? No problem. You could certainly arrange excellent terms for those citizens of yours...

But see Pieter that is the point.

I do understand your desire for Caldari Prime.

I get it.

I understand the avalanche of horrors on both sides that lead us to this point.

I understand you might be willing to “trade” anything for such a prize.

Nine Hells I am a trader deals are my life.

But what I think you misunderstand is that I have no desire to put you or the State “over a barrel”.

By the one God Pieter I want a just an honorable peace.

Not just for us… but for you.

But I can’t find a way to trust you.

I can’t believe anything you say.

I will defend Federal interests to the best of my limited ability, but have no interest in taking advantage of you or yours.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Or maybe, and I'm just spitballing here, how about tying the return of the other half of Caldari Prime to a ceasefire? That would be attaching terms to the peace that ANYONE would be reluctant to hazard.

Its a possibility worth discussing.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2014-03-28 01:04:22 UTC
So another one of my drunk nights watching holoreels with an old friend has inspired me to say this:

Sorry, Federal citizens of Caldari Prime. But I've realised you are not as important as a peace process which affects literally trillions of people. If you literally cannot stomach the thought of living under Caldari rulership, there are thousands of Federation worlds which will take you in.

The Federation can survive that. I don't know if the Federation can survive another all-out war with the State.

We can win it, certainly. But I don't know if the Federation that could win a war against a State is a Federation I'd have any interest in living in.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#133 - 2014-03-28 01:08:10 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
James, we only control one side of the terms - the Federation controls the other side. I'm constantly amazed that you don't recognise this as your chance to put the State over a barrel in terms of negotiation. Want everything in Placid taken off the table? No problem. Want trade agreements? No problem. You could certainly arrange excellent terms for those citizens of yours...

But see Pieter that is the point.

I do understand your desire for Caldari Prime.

I get it.

I understand the avalanche of horrors on both sides that lead us to this point.

I understand you might be willing to “trade” anything for such a prize.

Nine Hells I am a trader deals are my life.

But what I think you misunderstand is that I have no desire to put you or the State “over a barrel”.

By the one God Pieter I want a just an honorable peace.

Not just for us… but for you.

But I can’t find a way to trust you.

I can’t believe anything you say.

I will defend Federal interests to the best of my limited ability, but have no interest in taking advantage of you or yours.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Or maybe, and I'm just spitballing here, how about tying the return of the other half of Caldari Prime to a ceasefire? That would be attaching terms to the peace that ANYONE would be reluctant to hazard.

Its a possibility worth discussing.

I'd get behind that completely. We're all looking for that peace, mister Syagrius. Everyone but the slim, ignorant minority on both sides that think the war is a good thing.
Gregory Na'Dare
Doomheim
#134 - 2014-03-28 01:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregory Na'Dare
I have been asked by someone I respect to apologize to Ms. Oniseki and Mr. Tuulinen. Not necessary for what I said, but how I said it. You're my enemy, you're the enemy of the Federation. I just remember it isn't only Caldari who have been victimized on (pauses) Caldari Prime. Its my home too. But you Mr. Ixiris can rot.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2014-03-28 01:19:18 UTC
If that's the way you feel.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2014-03-28 01:20:07 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Speaking of goading...

Callous arrogance like this Na'Dare displays isn't going to be dispelled by reasonable arguments, nor by accurate sarcasm. Save it for the people whose opinions matter and can be changed.


You have to take into consideration that Na'Dare was born and raised on Caldari Prime himself. He is one of the many Gallenteans who can call the planet Home as much as you can. He represents the demographic living on the planet who the Liberals treat as house guest overstaying their welcome, who the Moderates treat as squatters, and who the Patriots treat as invaders.

I agree that it is unfortunate that Caldari Prime will never truly be 100% Caldari again. However, that's history. You cannot remove the Gallente presence on the planet or treat them as second class citizens. It's very evident that the Federation will not stand for that under any conditions.

You can't blame them of course, Caldari culture is about looking to the past. The spirits of one's ancestors, the tales of older times, ancient traditions that never faded away. The Caldari's sense of nostalgia is gorgeous. It's hard for even the most Nationalistic Gallentean to deny that Caldari culture is wonderful and beautiful. However, just this once citizens of the State, look toward the future and forgo the past.

There is a future of ships buzzing about between Caldari Prime and Gallente Prime, carrying brilliant goods, people, and ideas. You'll have Ishukone Raven's stomping out pirate threats in the Federation, while CreoDron drones save lives in operating rooms across the State. Suulo will become a more common expression than Jainjii. The Caldari will teach the Gallente to preserve and honor their past, while the Gallente teach the Caldari to look towards the future with an open mind. Sadly, none of this will ever happen unless there can be mutual respect for the two groups of people living on Caldari Prime.

Ishukone is getting ready to make this next step. The Senate is getting ready to make this next step. All we need to do is follow their lead. Afterall, what could go wrong? The worst case scenario has already happened. I'm going to hate myself for spewing out this trite saying, but for crying out loud, let's give peace a chance.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2014-03-28 01:34:35 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
So another one of my drunk nights watching holoreels with an old friend has inspired me to say this:

Sorry, Federal citizens of Caldari Prime. But I've realised you are not as important as a peace process which affects literally trillions of people. If you literally cannot stomach the thought of living under Caldari rulership, there are thousands of Federation worlds which will take you in.

The Federation can survive that. I don't know if the Federation can survive another all-out war with the State.

We can win it, certainly. But I don't know if the Federation that could win a war against a State is a Federation I'd have any interest in living in.


Mr. Ixiris, we almost always agree when it comes to State-Federation relations. However this time, with the utmost respect, I have to disagree.

It's not State leadership that I think Gallenteans on Caldari Prime are opposed to. It's being treated poorly by this government is what people are afraid of. I can say with total certainty that when the Caldari treat the Gallente like fellow Caldari (obviously minus the benefits of being a citizen) things go very well. This is how it was for me when I was a temporary resident of the Hysayoda Corporation. If Federation Citizens on Caldari Prime were allowed to vote in Federal elections, pay Federation taxes, and receive Federation government benefits, there probably wouldn't be a problem.

And as much as the prospect of a total war with the State would horrify me, a time like that is when the Federation needs the loyalty of it's citizens more than ever.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#138 - 2014-03-28 01:46:37 UTC
Expanding on Pieters suggestion, the possibility of tying a cease fire to the return of Home would make a strong case for the Federation. Go a step farther, a non aggression agreement would likely go over just as well... Ultimately, pushing for open trade, even if it's only with some of the Okusaikan, would offer incentive for the long term maintenance of any peace treaty, via a conduit by which the States economy can remain in a high production footing while getting away from wartime tendencies. By making it unprofitable to consider military adventurism, it becomes far less likely. Our economy can move beyond it's current state of triage, the Federation gets a source of goods and materials (minus the ridiculous price fixing practices of yesteryear that the Okusaikan were so fond of in their efforts to shut out "competition"), and both sides have a focus for the competitive streak that will likely linger that doesn't involve razing colonies.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Erys Charantes
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2014-03-28 01:59:23 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
Speaking of goading...

Callous arrogance like this Na'Dare displays isn't going to be dispelled by reasonable arguments, nor by accurate sarcasm. Save it for the people whose opinions matter and can be changed.


You have to take into consideration that Na'Dare was born and raised on Caldari Prime himself. He is one of the many Gallenteans who can call the planet Home as much as you can. He represents the demographic living on the planet who the Liberals treat as house guest overstaying their welcome, who the Moderates treat as squatters, and who the Patriots treat as invaders.

I agree that it is unfortunate that Caldari Prime will never truly be 100% Caldari again. However, that's history. You cannot remove the Gallente presence on the planet or treat them as second class citizens. It's very evident that the Federation will not stand for that under any conditions.

You can't blame them of course, Caldari culture is about looking to the past. The spirits of one's ancestors, the tales of older times, ancient traditions that never faded away. The Caldari's sense of nostalgia is gorgeous. It's hard for even the most Nationalistic Gallentean to deny that Caldari culture is wonderful and beautiful. However, just this once citizens of the State, look toward the future and forgo the past.

There is a future of ships buzzing about between Caldari Prime and Gallente Prime, carrying brilliant goods, people, and ideas. You'll have Ishukone Raven's stomping out pirate threats in the Federation, while CreoDron drones save lives in operating rooms across the State. Suulo will become a more common expression than Jainjii. The Caldari will teach the Gallente to preserve and honor their past, while the Gallente teach the Caldari to look towards the future with an open mind. Sadly, none of this will ever happen unless there can be mutual respect for the two groups of people living on Caldari Prime.

Ishukone is getting ready to make this next step. The Senate is getting ready to make this next step. All we need to do is follow their lead. Afterall, what could go wrong? The worst case scenario has already happened. I'm going to hate myself for spewing out this trite saying, but for crying out loud, let's give peace a chance.

Fred, I too was born on Caldari Prime. I'm half Civire. And while I certainly agree with the majority of what you've said, Na'Dare's insistence on referring to Caldari Prime (recognized as such by the Federation) solely by it's system position is a slap in the face to anyone who actually respects the world and it's history. I have no home to go back to, since it was destroyed in the invasion, along with nearly everyone I held dear, and I refuse to take that excuse to enable arrogance on my end, so you may not be surprised that I've no tolerance for such self-centered behavior from others.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2014-03-28 02:15:29 UTC
Erys Charantes wrote:

Fred, I too was born on Caldari Prime. I'm half Civire. And while I certainly agree with the majority of what you've said, Na'Dare's insistence on referring to Caldari Prime (recognized as such by the Federation) solely by it's system position is a slap in the face to anyone who actually respects the world and it's history. I have no home to go back to, since it was destroyed in the invasion, along with nearly everyone I held dear, and I refuse to take that excuse to enable arrogance on my end, so you may not be surprised that I've no tolerance for such self-centered behavior from others.


I will agree that calling the planet by its position is indeed disrespectful. However I still feel his point was valid despite it's rather apathetic tone.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!