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Eve just a rental universe! Getting out of hand?

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Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#81 - 2014-03-22 12:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Oxide Ammar wrote:
I don't know when did people started to rent space but I'm sure it wasn't CCP intention for derailing the game like that, I'm sure they had fluffy ideas of ppl fighting from system to system capturing and losing regions 24/7, that ended right now with couple of big coalitions that they agreed to give the audience a show without touching each other rented space since it's their method of ISK printing these days.


It started when ~elite pvp~ started to /steamroll/ out TheLittleGuy from sov null to build their rental empires.

However in recent times people have seen the light and realise that elite pvp was not guilty, but was just powerlessly guided by the invisible hand of market demand.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2014-03-22 12:52:59 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
yeah, you've still yet to demonstrate a single reason why people can't do something about it.

linking a map with some colours on it, and a player count hasn't provided any reason what so ever.

If you're incapable of understanding at this point then I think you'd be better off just giving up trying to understand and leave it to the adults...


you've not made a point, there's nothing to understand yet.

a map, and a player count, do not articulate which mechanic prevents players from doing something about it.

Keep thinking. It'll come to you one day.

But I'll give you a little hint:

A young boy named Dave wanted to move out of his mums basement and make his way in the world, find an not so pretty wench and build a not so pretty house for him and his wench to live in. Unfortunately Dave lived in a enchanted forest full of evil trolls. Everytime Dave tried to build his house, the evil trolls being everywhere would beat Dave up, steal his wench and knock down his house.

Dave needed an army of his own but the only way Dave could gather an army was to take over control of a bit of the forest, but the only way Dave could do that was with an army. Dave was in a situation which smart people called a catch 22.

However Dave, not understanding what a catch 22 was, continued to wonder why he couldn't take over the forest, or raise his army, so he could build his house and get funky with his ugly wench..

Does that help at all?


when the evil trolls make up less than half of the population of the forest, why does dave keep trying to build his house where the trolls live? or why didn't dave just build his house outside of the enchanted forrest?

you know, i could go on about all the other stuff dave could do but it's a long list and i haven't got time for that.

anyway can we get back to the point? which game mechanic stops players doing something about it?

Yeah maybe because the map of Daves forest which I conveniently linked shows the entire forest is full of trolls... ffs

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Dave stark
#83 - 2014-03-22 12:56:10 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Yeah maybe because the map of Daves forest which I conveniently linked shows the entire forest is full of trolls... ffs


go and look at your map, it quite clearly doesn't show that. there's more than one colour on it, along with the fact that your other link shows that the trolls quite clearly account for less than half the population of the forest.

again, which mechanic is stopping players doing something about trolls inhabiting less than half of the forest?
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#84 - 2014-03-22 13:14:57 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

This is just ignorance of the situation Tauranon. What you're talking about is trying to create a coalition of people that could stand up to a playerbase of 37,000 people without any access to Sov and therefore no access to capitals, capital and well, no possible way of succeeding. Its utter crap.

If it was possible you'd be doing it instead of paying CFC to rent one system. Don't be a hypocrite.


No - because 6 months ago it was utterly not my goal to stand up to the CFC, and right now it is also utterly not my goal to stand up to the CFC. If I was attempting to *take* null, it is plainly not sensible to do It by taking it from the CFC. That is the last boss in the last dungeon of the biggest expansion ever made.

You personally have a problem with negativity, with fitting blinkers to yourself, and embarrassingly shooting the messenger.

read the post I gave you. It is a concise explanation of how BNI came to be sitting on a system. That can be achieved many ways, but you'll have to face it, it takes alliance construction to achieve it.
Johnathan Flubb
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#85 - 2014-03-22 13:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnathan Flubb
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Stop calling it a sandbox when its obviously not given there is only one way to win and lose sov. One way. Not two, not three. ONE themepark way and that's to turn up at x time to face up to 37,000 player coaltions.

And that was as I already showed, created by an EvE PLAYER, turned dev, turn back to EvE player.


No, the way to win Sov is to ensure that 37,000 character alliances have pressing reasons to NOT turn up to contest your timers.

ie

guns.
politics.
spies.
opportunism.

etc.

That's horsecrap. 37,000 people is more than the populations of the smallest 30 countries in the world. There is literally nothing you can do as a normal EVE player, corporation or alliance against that many people but to pay to rent, try join the coalition or go to npc space and give up on the major element of the game which is sov.

There are more people in CFC than active servicemen in my countries defence force. That's the reason there is one huge blue blur in the map I posted above.

Look at how rediculous this is - whats CCP's plan - nothing.


There's literally no way CCP can stop a coalition of 30k dedicated people short of saying "you guys can't play together and we'll ban you if you do," and that would completely violate the spirit of the sandbox. If you want to see CFC you're either going to have to play smarter than them or form your own big ass coalition.
Salvos Rhoska
#86 - 2014-03-22 13:33:35 UTC
Johnathan Flubb wrote:
There's literally no way CCP can stop a coalition of 30k dedicated people short of saying "you guys can't play together and we'll ban you if you do," and that would completely violate the spirit of the sandbox. If you want to see CFC you're either going to have to play smarter than them or form your own big ass coalition.


CCP can do it by instituting changes that disrupt CFC's tenuous internal homeostasis.

Ultimately I think null secs one best hope is for internal friction and competition to break the CFC from within.
CCP can and should make changes that incentivise or increase that friction and competition.
Afterall, thats what EVE is all about.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#87 - 2014-03-22 13:41:35 UTC
Come back in 5-7 years. Maybe by then they will get a clue.

Although I wouldn't count on it.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#88 - 2014-03-22 13:45:12 UTC
Johnathan Flubb wrote:


There's literally no way CCP can stop a coalition of 30k dedicated people short of saying "you guys can't play together and we'll ban you if you do," and that would completely violate the spirit of the sandbox. If you want to see CFC you're either going to have to play smarter than them or form your own big ass coalition.


They can implement something like:

http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/some-ideas-on-eve/an-influence-sovereignty-system/

Good Posting
Doomheim
#89 - 2014-03-22 13:50:09 UTC
30.000 characters coalitions can have all sov null systems for all i care. I've been there and sov wars and politics bored me to death, and i was on the winning side always. I still have some friends there and they keep inviting me to join sov null again but i have to decline politely because i have no time/interest in 6 hours tidi fleets.

Big coalitions influence the game for all the players but i can live with that and keep playing my game everyday.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2014-03-22 14:14:31 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Come back in 5-7 years. Maybe by then they will get a clue.

Although I wouldn't count on it.


In 5 years there will be a ships with a "Summon Collation" option in a desperate attempt to grab headlines with bigger and badder battles. P

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Prince Kobol
#91 - 2014-03-22 14:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Again, this has nothing to do with numbers but having something worth fighting for and unfortunately due to the game mechanics a large portion of null sec is simply not worth the effort for new groups to form and take on other established alliances.

Why should somebody go to the massive amount time, effort and frustration it takes to form and run an alliance to try and take space from an existing alliance based in null.

What we need is more conflict drivers, a new way of capturing Sov that doesn't require bashing down a number of structures with millions of EHP, an over whelming advantage to the defender and something lets both forces disrupt local if only for a brief time.

I personally have no idea what the solution is, however I have read many of a forum post over the years with some great ideas that deserve considerate and discussion with CCP and the CSM.

Just to add, what ever the solution is, my worry is that CCP no longer have the funds / staff / knowledge / resources/ will available to make the changes required.
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#92 - 2014-03-22 18:19:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Beekeeper Bob
ImYourMom wrote:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Northern_Associates.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Greater_Western_Co-Prosperity_Sphere
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Darkness._Citizens

All these are rental, nearly 17 regions and god knows how many systems abut 600+. and thats not all of them. So is it just me seeing something fundamentally wrong here?


this is why we need multiple worlds jus tlike every other MMO or make some fundamental changes that stop this . Becuase alliances like this just control everything, and always will, and most of all this surely isnt what eve was supposed to be about was it?


personally i would like all nullsec to be npc or sov costs need to go up massively.



Don't like how it is?
Can't be bothered to do anything about it yourself?

I heard "Fix it for me, I don't want to actually work to have sov..."

Oh and no comprende "sandbox"? Shocked

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#93 - 2014-03-22 19:15:22 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
ImYourMom wrote:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Northern_Associates.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Greater_Western_Co-Prosperity_Sphere
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Darkness._Citizens

All these are rental, nearly 17 regions and god knows how many systems abut 600+. and thats not all of them. So is it just me seeing something fundamentally wrong here?


this is why we need multiple worlds jus tlike every other MMO or make some fundamental changes that stop this . Becuase alliances like this just control everything, and always will, and most of all this surely isnt what eve was supposed to be about was it?


personally i would like all nullsec to be npc.


I live in null
I am not affliated to any sov holding group and don't rent.
Some of the renters have nice space that they don't defend and i lightly populated. great for running sigs or killing their ratters.
There are certainly problems but multishard ain't the solution. People aren't sure what is though and we all have options within the current system.
I believe the biggest corp in the game has just entered the null scene and has grown from scratch in about a year so someone can clearly still make an impact with hard work


Brave is only allowed in null because they aren't interested in challenging the hegimony. They were given awful space that sov factions don't bother with. The null coalitions like them because they generate content(through cheap ship battles) without threatening sov.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#94 - 2014-03-22 19:18:50 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
ImYourMom wrote:
Himnos Altar wrote:
ImYourMom wrote:


Really yeah ill just spin up a 10000 man coaliion that has 10000000 titans and supers.. Roll


Brave Newbies did it.

And you've heard the stories of how the Brave boys got their start, right?

so it's not out of the realm of possibility.



errrmmm they will never ever ever taken regions though will they. is not quite the same calibre is it, and every ohe coaltion that has tried has failed.


Goons and TEST started the same way and both have or do own regions.


No they didn't. Goons and Test literally had the exact opposite start as Brave. Goons and Test started with an exclusive core userbase (Something Awful/Reddit), which they recruited from. They also went in with the goal of taking sov. By contrast, Brave's core userbase is newbies from all sectors of the game and have had no goal beyond fights.
Bael Malefic
Doomheim
#95 - 2014-03-22 19:36:54 UTC
The obvious answer:

Do unto the Goons as they did unto BoB.

'Tis a matter of time before one or more Awoxers bust it up from within. Or until one faction or another becomes disenchanted with the lemmingness of it all and lashes out.

Folks moan about somebody else winning. I say, get over it. You want to change things? Observe what they are doing. Analyze it. Find the weaknesses (there always are some). Exploit them.

Too lazy to do that?

Then shut up.
Toshiro Ozuwara
Perkone
#96 - 2014-03-22 20:04:13 UTC
Tear Jar wrote:
Brave is only allowed in null because they aren't interested in challenging the hegimony. They were given awful space that sov factions don't bother with. The null coalitions like them because they generate content(through cheap ship battles) without threatening sov.

Technically, Brave is not in null. Brave is basing out of Sendaya.

You're right about why Brave is tolerated. They feed kills in huge numbers to everyone who comes around. Why wouldn't you keep a bunch of newer players around, many of whom fund their own PvP, to continue smashing their ships into you?

I'm not judging, a lot of the players in Brave think that's fun, and who am I to argue with them, but as wallets run dry, I am sure attitudes will change a bit.

It didn't take long to locate the tracking beacon, deep inside the quarters for sleepin' They thought they could get away Not today, it's not the way that this kid plays
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#97 - 2014-03-22 22:09:25 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Jessica Duranin wrote:
Just get rid of sov, completely.

Look at w-space: we don't have sov there, yet people still own systems.
You use and defend a system -> you own it. Simple as that.
If someone comes and throws you out of your system it's usually because they either want to use your space themselves, or because you pi*sed them of in some way - not because they just wanted to put their sticker on some map, which sadly is what most of sov 0.0 looks like today.
You can roam safely through most parts of space that those sov alliances "own", pull shiny loot out of their DED and exploration sites, completely unchallenged... as long as you don't dare touching their sticker on the map.
If someone in w-space would just even think about touching the anoms in our home system, we would pod them back to k-space immediately.


You know what the point of having different areas of space with different mechanics is?

It's so that there is variety.

You know what making nullsec work just like wspace would do?

Eliminate variety.


The current situation is a result of the fact that there is no compelling alternative. There is no reason not to take as much space as you possibly can and in fact doing so is the optimal choice, as there are no mechanics, no incentives, no rewards for choosing to hold a smaller footprint. The wealth and thus of ones empire is directly related to its size, so those who try to (or are forced to) stay small have died out. Create the means to make maintaining a smaller but far more developed area of space competitive and you'll be a long way towards changing it.


Removing sov would meet all those goals. Being able to use caps and super caps with relative ease the "variety" between null and w-space. Look at how narrow the "variety" is between low and null.

Removing sov would be a great step towards fixing sov. W-space, without mass limitations and with instant intel and clear logistical routes, seems like a no-brainer when the alternative is renter empires and structure grinding.

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
B.L.U.E L.A.S.E.R.
#98 - 2014-03-22 22:26:54 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Yeah maybe because the map of Daves forest which I conveniently linked shows the entire forest is full of trolls... ffs


go and look at your map, it quite clearly doesn't show that. there's more than one colour on it, along with the fact that your other link shows that the trolls quite clearly account for less than half the population of the forest.

again, which mechanic is stopping players doing something about trolls inhabiting less than half of the forest?


I commend your dedication to the whole "what mechanic" bit but at this point you just come across as having a learning disability.

No, not Infinity. You.

There are 15 yearoold boys all over the world who have EVERYTHING figured out, and re shocked that nobody else seems to "get it." Those 15 year old boys are developing the ability to both think in the abstract and, at the same time, simplify things down to absolute (to them) truths.

Most of those boys grow up and, though life experiences, start looking at things in a far more practical and realistic light. Those boys grow up to be men who understand nuance, and see how things really work instead of how they are "supposed" to work or how they "ideally" work. Some of them even look at WHY things work the way they work, and wonder whether the way things actually work is at cross purposes to the stated goal of whatever is being analyzed.

But some of the truly special keep asking the same inane question over and over, competing in their own brand of Socratic Special Olympics because they think they are being both clever and educational.

You're not being clever. You're not leading anyone to the "truth." You've just got a naive and pretty stupid grasp of one aspect of a video game. But god bless, keep on keeping on.

I am not an alt of Chribba.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#99 - 2014-03-22 22:32:26 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Lothros Andastar wrote:
If you don't like people renting space then form an Alliance, kick out the people who own the space and don't rent it out.

Awesome idea. Let me call 39,000 friends and we'll form an alliance. Because that's how many people CFC have managed to get together.


IF CFC really had 39k (or 37k) active combat pilots with the normal 50-60% in capitals, they could take the totality of Provi and Catch in a single reinforcement timer. Just because someone has X members doesn't mean they all will have the same goals, same ideas and actually have that amount of unique characters even online at any given time.

Why hasn't HERO been kicked out of Catch yet, they only have 3 systems which are not ihubbed yet and are surrounded by 8.3k locals (INIT, AA, CVA, APOC, VOLT)? Because they don't have those 8300 players online at all times to just throw around willy nilly. Same goes for CFC.

Besides, russians will turn against mittani soon anyways, it's already in the air.
Dominic karin
Versatility Production Corporation' LLC
#100 - 2014-03-22 23:56:47 UTC
ImYourMom wrote:
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Northern_Associates.
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Greater_Western_Co-Prosperity_Sphere
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Darkness._Citizens

All these are rental, nearly 17 regions and god knows how many systems abut 600+. and thats not all of them. So is it just me seeing something fundamentally wrong here?


this is why we need multiple worlds jus tlike every other MMO or make some fundamental changes that stop this . Becuase alliances like this just control everything, and always will, and most of all this surely isnt what eve was supposed to be about was it?


personally i would like all nullsec to be npc or sov costs need to go up massively.



Posting in a not-so-stealth fix sov thread.