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High sec Mission runners just got completely screwed by CCP

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#701 - 2014-03-28 23:31:32 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Talking about manufacturing lines?
You mean nerfing the crap out of the quantity of high sec lines, because the same null sec cartels are crying tears over that too.


I'm a hisec carebear and I've been "crying tears" over the ubiquity and stupidly low costs of hi sec manufacturing lines for quite some time. Anyone who currently has any kind of assembly line in a hi sec POS is doing it wrong. It should not be this way.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#702 - 2014-03-28 23:36:43 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
The only issue I have with the reprocessing changes is allowing outposts to have a better refine efficiency than POSes.
words


Sure, an outpost costs tens of billions of ISK to set up and upgrade, almost as much as a single titan. The advantage that outpost has in refining efficiency will pay for the entire outpost in a few months of reprocessing. So you can stop crying your crocodile tears right there. Nevermind that outposts can't be destroyed so you'll never actually lose the materials you leave behind when someone captures it (just capture it back, or stay in the outpost so you can ship stuff out). Capturing back an outpost is a whole lot easier than taking back a POS that has been destroyed.

I think everyone wants to be able to blow up outposts in the future, and if these changes are on the road to making nullsec more livable and redoing the sov system (I think they are), that's probably the plan. The biggest issue with destructible outposts was over what to do with people's assets left inside.

I think that making outposts useful as more than just as a place to dock is what has to come first, though. I'm hoping that's what's going on.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#703 - 2014-03-28 23:38:27 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

continuing to draw attention towards our efforts will leave us no choice but to advance our schedule.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#704 - 2014-03-28 23:40:12 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

continuing to draw attention towards our efforts will leave us no choice but to advance our schedule.


lol
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#705 - 2014-03-28 23:44:07 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
I think everyone wants to be able to blow up outposts in the future, and if these changes are on the road to making nullsec more livable and redoing the sov system (I think they are), that's probably the plan. The biggest issue with destructible outposts was over what to do with people's assets left inside.

I think that making outposts useful as more than just as a place to dock is what has to come first, though. I'm hoping that's what's going on.


A destructible outpost is still a lower risk investment than a POS. More hit points to start with, and you'll be facing bigger fleets since outposts are more important to everyone in the alliance.

Outposts already have more value than a POS due to material logistics. When CCP gets around to rebalancing manufacturing lines, you'll see outposts becoming even more valuable simply because you have so much more storage capacity than a POS. Outposts don't need an advantage in game mechanics to support their value. They're already worth everything alliances pay for them, otherwise alliances wouldn't build them.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#706 - 2014-03-28 23:50:46 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Talking about manufacturing lines?
You mean nerfing the crap out of the quantity of high sec lines, because the same null sec cartels are crying tears over that too.


I'm a hisec carebear and I've been "crying tears" over the ubiquity and stupidly low costs of hi sec manufacturing lines for quite some time. Anyone who currently has any kind of assembly line in a hi sec POS is doing it wrong. It should not be this way.


So every casual player, who want to convert an LP blueprint into goods, or every non-intense industrialist, they should be gutted?

I love how I see who knows how many null sec cartel propagandists stating flatly that the only way to properly run missions is to blitz them, for LP, and the best bang for your buck is LP based items from 5 run BPC's. Now, we see the other shoe drop when the manufacturing lines these mission runners NEED are removed.
Marsha Mallow
#707 - 2014-03-28 23:53:29 UTC
Dinsdale, if everyone is indeed a sockpuppet of the nullsec cartels controlled by mind beams from their toasters, how do we know you aren't one of them? How do you?

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#708 - 2014-03-29 00:00:50 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Oh it most certainly is being touched. Unless you believe all reprocessing will be done in Nullsec from now on (don't make me laugh).
Eh. What?
You're mixing up a whole lot of different and unrelated things here.

No, mineral availability is not being reduced. It's really as simple as that. Frankly, I'd be surprised if we are even in the double digits as far as percentage of mineral extraction potential goes at the moment. The demand is there and the market will respond; the minerals will be trivially be available in the same quantities as before. Will there be a slight hiccup during the switch-over? Sure. Will it rebound? Of course.

Quote:
Im not sure what you and Lucas find so hard about this.
Probably the fact that you seem to think it will somehow increase unless the ratio of minerals produced and manufacturing lines available remains the same… and the fact that you seem to think that, for no particular reason, you assume that mineral availability will go (way) down, in spite of the fact that the change includes measures to ensure that it doesn't and in spite of the massive amounts of surplus ore available in the universe.

The overproduction capacity of the EVE universe is immense. There are ridiculously large margins left untapped at the moment.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#709 - 2014-03-29 00:02:42 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
So every casual player, who want to convert an LP blueprint into goods, or every non-intense industrialist, they should be gutted?


If you want to convert blueprints into items, specialise in manufacturing. If you don't, why should you be able to manufacture things just as well as the capsuleer with level 5 in the appropriate manufacturing skills?

So yes, you should be losing out on efficiency if you aren't trained to manufacture efficiently. This is not a black and white scenario, you can choose to manufacture at low efficiency and simply take a hit on the profit (who cares how inefficient you are at manufacturing combat scanner probes? the profit comes from the LP side of the sisters combat scanner probes).

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I love how I see who knows how many null sec cartel propagandists stating flatly that the only way to properly run missions is to blitz them, for LP, and the best bang for your buck is LP based items from 5 run BPC's. Now, we see the other shoe drop when the manufacturing lines these mission runners NEED are removed.


When those manufacturing lines are removed and replaced by POS based manufacturing lines, you'll simply have to buddy up with an industrialist who runs a POS. Ideally CCP will allow us to rent POS based activity lines to people who aren't in our corporation or alliance.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#710 - 2014-03-29 00:03:56 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
So every casual player, who want to convert an LP blueprint into goods, or every non-intense industrialist, they should be gutted?
Who said they should? Mara certainly didn't…

Quote:
I love how I see who knows how many null sec cartel
Who?

Quote:
propagandists stating flatly that the only way to properly run missions is to blitz them, for LP, and the best bang for your buck is LP based items from 5 run BPC's. Now, we see the other shoe drop when the manufacturing lines these mission runners NEED are removed.
Yeah, see… that's the thing: they won't be removed, only reallocated to a more meaningful and balanced form. The only one saying that they will be removed is you, which I suppose makes you the “cartel propagandist”. I mean, it only makes sense: outright removing them would benefit you directly, but not the game as a whole.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#711 - 2014-03-29 00:20:26 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
So every casual player, who want to convert an LP blueprint into goods, or every non-intense industrialist, they should be gutted?


If you want to convert blueprints into items, specialise in manufacturing. If you don't, why should you be able to manufacture things just as well as the capsuleer with level 5 in the appropriate manufacturing skills?

So yes, you should be losing out on efficiency if you aren't trained to manufacture efficiently. This is not a black and white scenario, you can choose to manufacture at low efficiency and simply take a hit on the profit (who cares how inefficient you are at manufacturing combat scanner probes? the profit comes from the LP side of the sisters combat scanner probes).

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I love how I see who knows how many null sec cartel propagandists stating flatly that the only way to properly run missions is to blitz them, for LP, and the best bang for your buck is LP based items from 5 run BPC's. Now, we see the other shoe drop when the manufacturing lines these mission runners NEED are removed.


When those manufacturing lines are removed and replaced by POS based manufacturing lines, you'll simply have to buddy up with an industrialist who runs a POS. Ideally CCP will allow us to rent POS based activity lines to people who aren't in our corporation or alliance.


I DO have perfect manufacturing skills, or good enough that I am satisfied with the loss of minerals.
I am not talking about inefficiencies in skills.
I am talking about the lack of slots to actually manufacture anything.

And as for partnering up with someone, that is ridiculous beyond the pale.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#712 - 2014-03-29 00:27:08 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I DO have perfect manufacturing skills, or good enough that I am satisfied with the loss of minerals.
I am not talking about inefficiencies in skills.
I am talking about the lack of slots to actually manufacture anything.
…so again, the one who'd benefit from an actual reduction would be you. Is that why you keep claiming (wishing?) that it'll happen?

Quote:
And as for partnering up with someone, that is ridiculous beyond the pale.
How so?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#713 - 2014-03-29 00:31:26 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
I'm a high sec mission runner and i don't feel screwed by this change. I do feel screwed by this thread though. Less conspiracy, more cowbell I always say.


Sometimes conspiracy is a good source of inspiration. I'm going to suggest that our CSM representitives make it their mission to make CCP bring in only changes that will directly affect Dinsdale in a negative way.


See, there have been a few times where I almost think that you guys did something just because Dinsdale claimed you were going to, and you all thought "hey, that is a good idea!".

And now I'm getting my own tinfoil, I suppose.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#714 - 2014-03-29 00:50:37 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
And as for partnering up with someone, that is ridiculous beyond the pale.

Dinsdale "I do it myself" Pirannha, folks.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Darkblad
Doomheim
#715 - 2014-03-29 00:58:29 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
And as for partnering up with someone, that is ridiculous beyond the pale.
Yeah, a Sandbox also should support those MSOrpg players ...

NPE – ISD – RIP
Alesha Kalishi
The Dysfunctionals
#716 - 2014-03-29 00:59:43 UTC
Knew I trained Scrap Metal Processing to 5 for a reason. :)
Faux Sho
Umbra Victoria
#717 - 2014-03-29 01:09:30 UTC
As a new player who is running high sec missions, i'm not sure what to think. While I do run the missions and loot/salvage sometimes; i do not believe that I am going to miss much with teh changes.

Sure it's nice to refine that stuff that's less than 100k, but I'm not playing this game to nickle and dime my way through. The little amount of ISK I get from refining now isn't going to be missed in the larger picture; at least for me.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#718 - 2014-03-29 01:33:32 UTC
Darkblad wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
And as for partnering up with someone, that is ridiculous beyond the pale.
Yeah, a Sandbox also should support those MSOrpg players ...


Oh, so very much this.

Far too many of the carebear oriented suggestions come from people who, judging by what they're asking for, are asking to have a single player game.

The answer is basically "you're playing the wrong game".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#719 - 2014-03-29 01:45:27 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Talking about manufacturing lines?
You mean nerfing the crap out of the quantity of high sec lines, because the same null sec cartels are crying tears over that too.


I'm a hisec carebear and I've been "crying tears" over the ubiquity and stupidly low costs of hi sec manufacturing lines for quite some time. Anyone who currently has any kind of assembly line in a hi sec POS is doing it wrong. It should not be this way.


So every casual player, who want to convert an LP blueprint into goods, or every non-intense industrialist, they should be gutted?

I love how I see who knows how many null sec cartel propagandists stating flatly that the only way to properly run missions is to blitz them, for LP, and the best bang for your buck is LP based items from 5 run BPC's. Now, we see the other shoe drop when the manufacturing lines these mission runners NEED are removed.


Dinsdale, I looked last night over Vale of the Silent, at all the production lines available to me via alliance.

Guess what. 4 stations had lines in use, and only one had more than 5 lines in use. ie when we talk about nerfing highsec manufacturing, we are literally talking about nerfing a location where 95%+ of all manufacturing is done. it is -that- badly out of balance.

I have about 20 spaceships in Vale now, and they all came from the same place. Jita. As did every module that isn't deadspace.

ie right now, the table is impossibly tilted against null production, and as and when a problem arises with highsec production as a result of these changes, CCP can reconsider the balance again.

Right now, this really, needs to be done.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#720 - 2014-03-29 01:52:04 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Sure, an outpost costs tens of billions of ISK to set up and upgrade, almost as much as a single titan. The advantage that outpost has in refining efficiency will pay for the entire outpost in a few months of reprocessing. So you can stop crying your crocodile tears right there. Nevermind that outposts can't be destroyed so you'll never actually lose the materials you leave behind when someone captures it (just capture it back, or stay in the outpost so you can ship stuff out). Capturing back an outpost is a whole lot easier than taking back a POS that has been destroyed.

There are different refineries available for low/null which are more efficient than the hi sec ones. You need to read the devblog.

Other advantages that an outpost has over a POS:

  • Unlimited storage space
  • Many more activity lines
  • No fuel


You can't dock a thousand carriers and dreadnoughts at a POS. So the advantages of an outpost are already worth the fees otherwise people wouldn't deploy and upgrade them.

The advantage of unlimited storage space will turn up again when CCP start talking about manufacturing lines.
So are you purposely ignoring sov costs? You can't hold an outpost without them. Sov bills are their fuel.

Also, they are supposed to be better than a POS, always have. You'll just have to deal with that.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

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