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High sec Mission runners just got completely screwed by CCP

First post First post
Author
Salvos Rhoska
#261 - 2014-03-21 17:39:39 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
it's because you refuse to respond to the arguments opposing yours.


That is exactly my perception of you and Tippia also.

Now kindly let me leave and you can have your way unabated.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#262 - 2014-03-21 17:48:09 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
You could do billions a month with this "non profession". Call it "hobby" then Lol
If you made billions in a month in loot that you refined, then you will have made orders of magnitude more from loot that was too valuable to refine, salvage material, LP rewards, bounty isk and mission rewards. It's still a small fraction of the total income of a missioner, and that small fraction is being reduced by 27%. That doesn't mean mission income is reduced by 27%. Being incredibly generous and saying that 20% of the income was from refined modules (I'd doubt it's even half that), that would mean an overall mission income reduction of ~5%.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
This creates "space-divide". Who has top skills and ships CAN blitz with great success, but who's newer is royally screwed. They have to slowly and painfully chew through the NPCs, their tank can't even dream affording a room agro (to blitz to the gate / objective). Some also made side ISK by mining the roids in the instances. All of this is getting nerfed.

So who starts anew has disadvantage, old-bies have all the advantage.
See above, this is a small reduction. Add onto this that newer players wouldn't have been refining at 100% to start with.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
This stopped being true since a year of two.
The impact was reduced, not stopped entirely. The addition of the mobile tractor unit increased the impact of mission loot on mining too, since so many people were just abandoning wrecks favoring more LP.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
No, who is new will struggle taking off. The last loot changes have been mostly about making harder to start from zero and easier to make ISK for those playing since years.

Changing module names to dumber names is not going to be more newbie friendly than making like a crap and basically force newbs into mining or pay $10 to belong to the Forum Of Justs.
See the first and second points. A reduction to a single small part of the mission income which wouldn't be fully exploited by new players right now anyway is getting a reduction in value. That doesn't force anything on newbs.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#263 - 2014-03-21 17:50:19 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Soldarius wrote:

Fact: getting 100% refine rate in hisec has been retardedly easy forever
Where/how?
... Everywhere?
Do you really not know how to get a 100% refine rate? You barely need SP invested to do it. You'll actually have to train refining skill while already above perfect refine just to use T2 mining crystals.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#264 - 2014-03-21 17:53:33 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
it's because you refuse to respond to the arguments opposing yours.


That is exactly my perception of you and Tippia also.

Now kindly let me leave and you can have your way unabated.
Actually I responded directly to your post. I quoted and everything. Refusing to agree is no the same as refusing to respond. If you read back to all of your responses to my posts in this thread, every single one of them has ignored that actual points made in my posts and focused on telling me how I'm "sabotaging". Seriously, you can respond to one to the points, or all of the points if you wish. Look at VV's post for an example of how to constructively respond.

But anyway... Thanks, bye!

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#265 - 2014-03-21 17:55:20 UTC
The best part of all of this is that the best income levels from missions involve no looting at all.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#266 - 2014-03-21 17:56:50 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Soldarius wrote:

Fact: getting 100% refine rate in hisec has been retardedly easy forever


Where/how?


Dude, do you even refine? Go to a station with a refinery. Train some skills. Run some missions. Voila. By the time you're done with skills, you'll have standings.








http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#267 - 2014-03-21 17:57:15 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Soldarius wrote:

Fact: getting 100% refine rate in hisec has been retardedly easy forever
Where/how?
... Everywhere?
Do you really not know how to get a 100% refine rate? You barely need SP invested to do it. You'll actually have to train refining skill while already above perfect refine just to use T2 mining crystals.


Ok then I and my friend who does it often must be missing something.

Ive never seen a 100% return of materials from any object, and the only "perfect" result Ive seen is a zero wastage and zero commission reprocess at stations where you have high standings, unless thats what you mean, rather than a 100% return on the materials used to make it?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Karen Galeo
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#268 - 2014-03-21 18:01:40 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Yeah, I was.
This is just another cut in the "death by a thousand cuts" to high sec.
CCP truly does hate the majority of its subscription base.



I would just like to take a moment out from the forum flaming to point out that CCP is a business. CCP wants players. CCP sells fun, and you don't make things fun by hating your customers.

This was an area of the game that they felt needed to be rebalanced, just like the changes to drone assist, the ship rebalancing, and so on. It means that people who *want* to make reprocessing and salvaging their Eve career can get ahead, and the mission-loot-salvage-reprocessed is a small fraction of the total income of mission running.

Author of the Karen 162 blog.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#269 - 2014-03-21 18:01:44 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

Sorry, but some of us have done literally everything, I have lived in wormholes, I own 2 miners an orca/rorq and a cloaky hauler dedicated to the task of mining (let me tell you how dusty those are) I have done t2 and t3 invention i have ran missions of all levels for just about every agent I've done incursions to the tune of knocking one fully out in 5 hours when it settled in our home system while we were attacking an enemy.

Pretty much the only thing I dont know how to do in EVE is PI and those 4 miners are currently training to max PI skills since I'm out of other things to train on them.

In short, we know what the **** we're talking about when we talk, sorry that doesn't fit your narrative but we've been around for a while and probably will be around for a while longer.


I have done all of the above plus mined in every sec plus have had 118 PI planets including factories planets.

Your (and not just yours) talk is easily proved biased by one simple consideration: WHs are riskier than sov null sec yet NOBODY of your opinion has mentioned they should get better refine than any null sec.

Why? Self interest much?
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#270 - 2014-03-21 18:06:21 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
WHs are riskier than sov null sec



lolno they really arent

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#271 - 2014-03-21 18:06:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Soldarius wrote:

Fact: getting 100% refine rate in hisec has been retardedly easy forever
Where/how?
... Everywhere?
Do you really not know how to get a 100% refine rate? You barely need SP invested to do it. You'll actually have to train refining skill while already above perfect refine just to use T2 mining crystals.


Ok then I and my friend who does it often must be missing something.

Ive never seen a 100% return of materials from any object, and the only "perfect" result Ive seen is a zero wastage and zero commission reprocess at stations where you have high standings, unless thats what you mean, rather than a 100% return on the materials used to make it?
You really must be doing it wrong, and that's not even a troll. You need to find any station with a base 50% refine (Any station in Amarr for example, and hundreds of others all over high sec). You then need 6.67 standing with the corporation that owns the station, including connections, so a bunch of missions and connections 4 takes you no time at all, can be done inside a day (connections maybe slightly longer but that applies retroactively anyway as it's a static boost to your standing). That takes care of tax.

Then you just need Refining 5, Refinery Efficiency 4, and the specific ore skill of 1. At that point you are perfect refine in any 50% station owned by that corp.

EDIT: Oh and for your final point, the 100% refine is independent of tax. I imagine the tax rules will still apply on top of the refine yield even once the changes go in. The only way to reduce tax in an NPC station is to increase standings.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#272 - 2014-03-21 18:08:53 UTC
Also, my "narrative" comes from the point of view of someone who has done everything in EvE except reactions (never found them fun or highly profitable enough) and now is sort of "pensioneer" with no active interest in EvE any more except trading.

That is, all these changes are fairly neutral to me, I don't have anything to GAIN saying A instead of B.

Where I am not neutral is, I have had terrible past MMO experiences when the developers started catering to only a portion of the player base, that is the loudest and most established. They invariably tanked over time, as new players would find themselves hit by a "wealth divide" that prevented them from growing "powerful" at a good rate like the others could.

Considering EvE has become great without wealth divides, I don't like the idea of seeing what happens when they get implemented.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#273 - 2014-03-21 18:09:00 UTC
Karen Galeo wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Yeah, I was.
This is just another cut in the "death by a thousand cuts" to high sec.
CCP truly does hate the majority of its subscription base.



I would just like to take a moment out from the forum flaming to point out that CCP is a business. CCP wants players. CCP sells fun, and you don't make things fun by hating your customers.

This was an area of the game that they felt needed to be rebalanced, just like the changes to drone assist, the ship rebalancing, and so on. It means that people who *want* to make reprocessing and salvaging their Eve career can get ahead, and the mission-loot-salvage-reprocessed is a small fraction of the total income of mission running.


You are clearly mathematically challenged.
Under optimal conditions, every salvager/ reprocessor just received a 45%, nerf to their income.
And guess what, loot is far far from a "small percentage of mission income".

Propagandists keep throwing around lies trivializing loot, but that is part of the campaign.
If you get enough people lying the same lie, repeatedly, eventually many will believe it.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#274 - 2014-03-21 18:10:47 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
WHs are riskier than sov null sec



lolno they really arent


So, let's REMOVE IMMEDIATELY local chat.

Deal? LolLolLolLolLol


* Millions of scared sov null seccers cries suddenly were heard across the whole universe *
Salvos Rhoska
#275 - 2014-03-21 18:13:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
What the **** is wrong with you? You won't let me walk away and leave you to have your way?

You keep claiming that I ignored your "good points" as an excuse to keep pulling me back into this.. I will therefore now address them under the implicit understanding that thereafter you leave me out of this, as I have already several times stated I have no wish to remain in this discussion.

Lucas Kell wrote:
While I agree it's a reduction in the income from scrap, that was never really a profession anyway. Mission runners make more isk from LP rewards and mission blitzing than from the loot, and will still be the main source of salvage.

Reprocessing wreck loot is and was a "real" profession. Whether you think so or not is not relevant to that. Nobody has disputed that the players who bring that loot to market make more ISK from blitzing. This is also true of Combat Signature runners. But the loot on the wrecks is a core component of those activities that though unremarkable uptil now, is even further reduced after the proposed change.

Lucas Kell wrote:
If you look at it from the mining point of view, miners were previously getting screwed because on-the-side income from missioners was directly affecting the mineral price. On top of that, ore compression was utterly pointless as modules existed to do that job better instead. That has now been turned into a viable tradeskill.

The "mining point of view" is ****ing months outdated. What miners had to go through then has no bearing on the current status quo. The situation is different today, and it is on todays situation that changes are to be decided. Otherwise its like saying "Look at it from the Jews perspective 50 yrs ago". Who fking cares. Its not relevant to this day and age, and the decisions at hand. If anything consideration of miners point of view back then, supports the contention that this change makes trash reprocessors an extinct species in a very similar way that mission loot threatened miners back then. Which collapses your argument and supports the opposition.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Then you have the effect on industry. Previously, you could manufacture a whole heap of most items, then if the market dropped away just recycle them back to minerals and try something else. Now industrialists will be forced to commit to a product, which is a good thing. If you mess up and you build 2 million units of something and they won't sell, you either have to take the hit or keep pushing sales. You can't just effectively undo your manufacture and try something else.


Nobody is disputing that 100% reprocessing was silly. If you think that, you are barking up the wrong tree and have completely misunderstood the nature of the contention here. Infact the primary abusers of that 100% reprocessing rate, are the null sec entities who used it to transport minerals in the form of 425mms as low volume units into null for perfect refinement into their constituent minerals. This is no longer necessary or the case in the proposed changes, again which are NOT in dispute in this thread or by myself.

Lucas Kell wrote:
And speaking objectively, if you look at this from the point of view of someone brand new, so not involved in any side of the debate, they way it will work is balanced. You are upset as your current method of isk generation will require a rethink, as will many others. You're not being objective by saying "this is how it affects me, therefore this is bad".


You contradict yourself. You speak of "speaking objectively" and then disqualify that by identifying yourself as brand new. Then you somehow try to argue that as some sort of justification for your view that "the way it will work is balanced", whereas that is no basis or proof of the "the way it will work" being balanced whatsoever. Makes no goddam sense. Following that comes the false assumption that I generate my isk from reprocessing, and the false accusation that I am therefore not objective.

I mean you had the outrageous audacity to twice claim I am not objective, first by claiming I am "generating my isk through reprocessing and am therefore self-interested and not objective" and once I said I do not, you then converted your argument to say that "you are not even involved in the generation of isk reprocessing, and therefore not self-interested and therefore not objective" and then you expect ME to believe that you are speaking objectively, based on the fact you are a new player, and that I should accept your view that "the way it will work is balanced" based on that? Circular logic. Utterly.

There. Now you have your "response to your good points". That is what you wanted.

I however, do not want your response to these.
I want you to let me walk away from this discussion without being incessantly forced back by aspersions thrown at my back.

You can have "your" way.

I do not wish to continue this discussion and would thank you kindly to not address me again.
Go ahead and discuss with someone else but leave me out of it.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#276 - 2014-03-21 18:16:02 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The best part of all of this is that the best income levels from missions involve no looting at all.


So everyone should just blitz and not even think about looting/salvaging? Not all of us who run missions are min/maxers looking for the absolute best isk per hour. I don't fly a ridiculously expensive mission ship. I don't have a specially implanted clone for PVE. I do missions as a way to make income, yes but, I also do them as a way to add a little variety to my game play.

By your logic CCP should just remove all the loot/salvage drops from missions. Oh, and remove Marauders as well since they'd serve no real purpose anymore.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#277 - 2014-03-21 18:16:03 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Sorry, but some of us have done literally everything, I have lived in wormholes, I own 2 miners an orca/rorq and a cloaky hauler dedicated to the task of mining (let me tell you how dusty those are) I have done t2 and t3 invention i have ran missions of all levels for just about every agent I've done incursions to the tune of knocking one fully out in 5 hours when it settled in our home system while we were attacking an enemy.

Pretty much the only thing I dont know how to do in EVE is PI and those 4 miners are currently training to max PI skills since I'm out of other things to train on them.

In short, we know what the **** we're talking about when we talk, sorry that doesn't fit your narrative but we've been around for a while and probably will be around for a while longer.


I have done all of the above plus mined in every sec plus have had 118 PI planets including factories planets.

Your (and not just yours) talk is easily proved biased by one simple consideration: WHs are riskier than sov null sec yet NOBODY of your opinion has mentioned they should get better refine than any null sec.

Why? Self interest much?


They don't invest 60 billion in upgrades or have to deal with taking on enemy fleets involving tens of trillions of isk in defence of said stations.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#278 - 2014-03-21 18:17:34 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Also, my "narrative" comes from the point of view of someone who has done everything in EvE except reactions (never found them fun or highly profitable enough) and now is sort of "pensioneer" with no active interest in EvE any more except trading.

That is, all these changes are fairly neutral to me, I don't have anything to GAIN saying A instead of B.

Where I am not neutral is, I have had terrible past MMO experiences when the developers started catering to only a portion of the player base, that is the loudest and most established. They invariably tanked over time, as new players would find themselves hit by a "wealth divide" that prevented them from growing "powerful" at a good rate like the others could.

Considering EvE has become great without wealth divides, I don't like the idea of seeing what happens when they get implemented.


EVE has had a wealth divide since day 2, and that divide is very stark now compared to the past. EVE succeeds IMO because it doesn't attract MMO players who care about such things and relative wealth, 'leveling' and being able to 'catch up'. It repels traditional MMO players for the most part and thank the Icelandic Gods for that.

CCP isn't catering to anyone, they are making good faith changes they believe (rightly or not) will make the game better. If they were 'catering' to people (such as null sec), the forsaken hub nerf, the ESS, the systems upgrades nerf, the NPC AI changes, the warp speed changes and the old DED plex nerfs would have never ever happened. All those nerfs heavily affected null sec which ccp didn't intend but that just how it shook out.
Notorious Fellon
#279 - 2014-03-21 18:17:35 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
WHs are riskier than sov null sec



lolno they really arent



I have flown extensively in all types of space. No place in the game is more challenging to survive in than a wormhole (assuming one is actually doing something other than sitting cloaked in a safe).

WH space is null with no local and no safe place to dock. There is no 250 man fleet of supers and support ready to cyno in to save your POS either.

Don't even try to claim null is anywhere close to WH space.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#280 - 2014-03-21 18:20:13 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The best part of all of this is that the best income levels from missions involve no looting at all.


So everyone should just blitz and not even think about looting/salvaging? Not all of us who run missions are min/maxers looking for the absolute best isk per hour. I don't fly a ridiculously expensive mission ship. I don't have a specially implanted clone for PVE. I do missions as a way to make income, yes but, I also do them as a way to add a little variety to my game play.

By your logic CCP should just remove all the loot/salvage drops from missions. Oh, and remove Marauders as well since they'd serve no real purpose anymore.


That leap of logic is too far. Baltec never said anything about taking away loot. He said that the best income come from blitzing. Since you don't care about the best isk/hr, what he said has nothing to do with you.