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High sec Mission runners just got completely screwed by CCP

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#241 - 2014-03-21 16:59:29 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
You are upset as your current method of isk generation will require a rethink, as will many others. You're not being objective by saying "this is how it affects me, therefore this is bad".
I do not generate my isk through this method. So your conclusion is false.
So you aren't talking from experience, you are speculating on the effect on an income stream you are not actually part of?

Good job at just ignoring the rest of the points though.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#242 - 2014-03-21 17:00:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Compression is unrelated to people refining minerals from ships/modules either produced by players or brought in from wrecks.

…aside from being the same mechanic and aside from those modules being used as compression units.

Quote:
Compression means nothing to a mission/ratter/plexer when he decides whether to bring back the trash he finds or not.
It also means nothing to a non-ore/ice refiner who is buying what those players bring back in order to turn a small profit by reselling the minerals.

…and the reasons looters do or don't pick up loot are of no consequence to the absolute necessity to create a margin of compression effectiveness in favour of actual mineral compression over the use of modules. If they are upset that they earn less, they can risk being laughed at and just ask for a higher mineral content. Good luck proving anything of the kind is needed, though.

Quote:
You are again confusing two separate issues.

You are still confused by not understanding or even seeing the very obvious connection between the two.
And again, people will bring back the trash because it is still valuable (and still for the same reasons) and because it requires no additional effort to do so. If you think that people will forego extra money for zero extra work, you're being a bit silly…

The answers and justifications for why this is needed have been provided. Just because you just don't like the answer doesn't mean it's not there.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#243 - 2014-03-21 17:02:09 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
@Tippia:

Your evasive reply and refusal to address key facts and ramifications is now sufficient to concern me that there are indeed vested interests in these proposed changes and that all attempts to objectively discuss the actual issues will be deliberately stonewalled and sabotaged.

I will express my dissent by withdrawing from this discussion. Have it "your" way.

hahaha no

the amount of loot coming from refined meta mods is probably insignificant next to mining, but having the main reason to pick up loot shouldn't be to refine it. one, because the mods should have a value to the player determined by how useful they are, and two, because everyone prefers minerals come from miners, which is why gun mining has been nerfed so much in the last few years

as i said before in this thread, when module metacide comes around (after ship rebalancing) mission looters'll be laughing when the garbage they're pulling out of cans is suddenly not useless

i'm fully aware of how much of a newbie's income came from looting missions and reprocessing - i did it before the meta 0 removal
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2014-03-21 17:02:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
CCP need to make null worth fighting for first.

null-sec exists since 2003? You say players were fighting in it just for fun? And there was NEVER any reasons to fight for it at all? Shocked


Can you think of any reason to invade goon space other than because its goons?

i dunno about goons....

but in 2011-2012 pretty huge part of 0.0 sec changed owners: Rogue Drone regions, angel regions, Delve, Querious....

According to your comment these wars never happened Shocked (there was no reasons to fight for 0.0 sec space)

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Salvos Rhoska
#245 - 2014-03-21 17:04:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Lucas Kell wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
You are upset as your current method of isk generation will require a rethink, as will many others. You're not being objective by saying "this is how it affects me, therefore this is bad".
I do not generate my isk through this method. So your conclusion is false.
So you aren't talking from experience, you are speculating on the effect on an income stream you are not actually part of?

Good job at just ignoring the rest of the points though.


First you contrive that I am self-interested and therefore not objective.
Then when I inform you that I am not self-interested and trying to be objective, you accuse me of being incapable of being objective because I am not self-interested.
Then you accuse me of ignoring other points, all of which where contingent on the previous contrivances.

This is exactly the kind of deliberate stonewalling and sabotage of discussion I was talking about earlier.

Kindly allow me the dignity of withdrawing from this discussion without throwing aspersions at my back as I rescind.
I already said I am not concerned enough to invest time and effort in resisting the already decided and vested changes.

You can have it "your" way. I am walking away. Let me do so.

@Benny Ohu: I hope you are right.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#246 - 2014-03-21 17:05:27 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
@Tippia:

Your evasive reply and refusal to address key facts and ramifications is now sufficient to concern me that there are indeed vested interests in these proposed changes and that all attempts to objectively discuss the actual issues will be deliberately stonewalled and sabotaged.

I will express my dissent by withdrawing from this discussion. Have it "your" way.


Welcome to the "new" and CAOD-ized GD, where a squadron of group-thinkers holds a firm grasp on everything that moves.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#247 - 2014-03-21 17:06:27 UTC
Everyone relax and take a deep breath. Everything will be okay. Trust me.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2014-03-21 17:08:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
You mean like people who wilfully ignore the actual reasons and logic behind a change, only to shout “no-one has provided any reasoning or logic for this change"?



Wait, removing industry skill involved compression in favor of a (nearly) skilless one so that a handful of people have a incentive to train refining to high levels to use exclusively in null seems logical to you?
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#249 - 2014-03-21 17:12:26 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
@Tippia:

Your evasive reply and refusal to address key facts and ramifications is now sufficient to concern me that there are indeed vested interests in these proposed changes and that all attempts to objectively discuss the actual issues will be deliberately stonewalled and sabotaged.

I will express my dissent by withdrawing from this discussion. Have it "your" way.


Welcome to the "new" and CAOD-ized GD, where a squadron of group-thinkers holds a firm grasp on everything that moves.

not too firm a grasp, it blocks off blood flow and reduces pleasure
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#250 - 2014-03-21 17:15:43 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Tippia wrote:
You mean like people who wilfully ignore the actual reasons and logic behind a change, only to shout “no-one has provided any reasoning or logic for this change"?

Wait, removing industry skill involved compression in favor of a (nearly) skilless one so that a handful of people have a incentive to train refining to high levels to use exclusively in null seems logical to you?

Providing highsec with a mechanism to compress minerals that does not involve the use of scraps is logical, yes. Whether it should require high-SP requirements to do so (especially in relation to mobile compression) is more a matter of balance than logic.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#251 - 2014-03-21 17:17:44 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Welcome to the "new" and CAOD-ized GD, where a squadron of group-thinkers holds a firm grasp on everything that moves.


Better than a gang of know-nothings randomly gibbering 50 different lies like it used to be.

But, yeah, wheres this 100% currently?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#252 - 2014-03-21 17:18:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Lucas Kell wrote:
While I agree it's a reduction in the income from scrap, that was never really a profession anyway.


You could do billions a month with this "non profession". Call it "hobby" then Lol



Lucas Kell wrote:

Mission runners make more isk from LP rewards and mission blitzing than from the loot, and will still be the main source of salvage.


This creates "space-divide". Who has top skills and ships CAN blitz with great success, but who's newer is royally screwed. They have to slowly and painfully chew through the NPCs, their tank can't even dream affording a room agro (to blitz to the gate / objective). Some also made side ISK by mining the roids in the instances. All of this is getting nerfed.

So who starts anew has disadvantage, old-bies have all the advantags.



Lucas Kell wrote:

If you look at it from the mining point of view, miners were previously getting screwed because on-the-side income from missioners was directly affecting the mineral price. On top of that, ore compression was utterly pointless as modules existed to do that job better instead. That has now been turned into a viable tradeskill.


This stopped being true since a year of two.


Lucas Kell wrote:

Then you have the effect on industry. Previously, you could manufacture a whole heap of most items, then if the market dropped away just recycle them back to minerals and try something else. Now industrialists will be forced to commit to a product, which is a good thing.


This is correct and alright.


Lucas Kell wrote:

And speaking objectively, if you look at this from the point of view of someone brand new, so not involved in any side of the debate, they way it will work is balanced.


No, who is new will struggle taking off. The last loot changes have been mostly about making harder to start from zero and easier to make ISK for those playing since years.

Changing module names to dumber names is not going to be more newbie friendly than making like a crap and basically force newbs into mining or pay $10 to belong to the Forum Of Justs.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#253 - 2014-03-21 17:20:54 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
@Tippia:

Your evasive reply and refusal to address key facts and ramifications is now sufficient to concern me that there are indeed vested interests in these proposed changes and that all attempts to objectively discuss the actual issues will be deliberately stonewalled and sabotaged.

I will express my dissent by withdrawing from this discussion. Have it "your" way.


Welcome to the "new" and CAOD-ized GD, where a squadron of group-thinkers holds a firm grasp on everything that moves.

not too firm a grasp, it blocks off blood flow and reduces pleasure


I see you like to take matters in your hands, eh? Blink

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#254 - 2014-03-21 17:22:43 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Welcome to the "new" and CAOD-ized GD, where a squadron of group-thinkers holds a firm grasp on everything that moves.


Better than a gang of know-nothings randomly gibbering 50 different lies like it used to be.

But, yeah, wheres this 100% currently?


No, forum noise is a lesser evil compared to have only one Line Of Authorized Thought.

Anyone who lived in a country where this was enforced, knows how bad it can be.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#255 - 2014-03-21 17:24:01 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Welcome to the "new" and CAOD-ized GD, where a squadron of group-thinkers holds a firm grasp on everything that moves.



Sorry, but some of us have done literally everything, I have lived in wormholes, I own 2 miners an orca/rorq and a cloaky hauler dedicated to the task of mining (let me tell you how dusty those are) I have done t2 and t3 invention i have ran missions of all levels for just about every agent I've done incursions to the tune of knocking one fully out in 5 hours when it settled in our home system while we were attacking an enemy.

Pretty much the only thing I dont know how to do in EVE is PI and those 4 miners are currently training to max PI skills since I'm out of other things to train on them.

In short, we know what the **** we're talking about when we talk, sorry that doesn't fit your narrative but we've been around for a while and probably will be around for a while longer.

Supporting changes has nothing to do with a narrative or wanting to hurt high sec and everything with wanting to make the game better. If thats unacceptable to you that in the overall attempt to make the game better your particular playstyle has to change a bit, well, tough ****. Our playstyles change near constantly because the game gets changed for the better, welcome to the life of every other player in EVE.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#256 - 2014-03-21 17:24:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
15 pages of tears...

Well done , CCP.

Fact: with 100% refine rate, almost all mission loot is worth more as minerals than on the market, even the really good stuff like 1600mm Rolled Tungsten Plates and Large lasers.

Fact: getting 100% refine rate in hisec has been retardedly easy forever. This has not followed the risk vs reward paradigm.

Fact: Easy-mode high income hisec is getting a nerf relative to nulsec, which is as it should be. More risk, more reward.

Anoms are not good looting. Belts are much better looting. I was able to make as much isk/hr in a Noctis salvaging and looting belts in Period Basis as running anoms in a BS, and the Noctis was a lot cheaper and easier to skill into, and belts are a hell of a lot easier to run than anoms. Not to mention the possibility of regular faction spawns and sometimes even officers.

With the possibility of 60% refineries in nulsec and a huge nerf to gun mining, the demand for Compressed Veldspar of all 3 varieties should increase. Set up a hisec compression service. Drop a small POS. Anchor Compression Array. Charge 3% or whatever you think it appropriate.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#257 - 2014-03-21 17:28:13 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


No, forum noise is a lesser evil compared to have only one Line Of Authorized Thought.

Anyone who lived in a country where this was enforced, knows how bad it can be.


You are confusing dicatorships with science

I suppose that's what you like about science, that there's no one right answer?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#258 - 2014-03-21 17:29:01 UTC
Soldarius wrote:

Fact: getting 100% refine rate in hisec has been retardedly easy forever


Where/how?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#259 - 2014-03-21 17:30:45 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Tippia wrote:
You mean like people who wilfully ignore the actual reasons and logic behind a change, only to shout “no-one has provided any reasoning or logic for this change"?

Wait, removing industry skill involved compression in favor of a (nearly) skilless one so that a handful of people have a incentive to train refining to high levels to use exclusively in null seems logical to you?

Providing highsec with a mechanism to compress minerals that does not involve the use of scraps is logical, yes.


How so? Indulge me, i want to know whether you will be arguing the new status quo ("coz reprocessing will be nerfed to 55%"), a opinion ("mineral compression is stupid and unbelievable, ore compression is much better and believable") or something else.

Tippia wrote:
Whether it should require high-SP requirements to do so (especially in relation to mobile compression) is more a matter of balance than logic.


"Lets wage war on america, we will work out the details later, like where to get an army."
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#260 - 2014-03-21 17:35:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
First you contrive that I am self-interested and therefore not objective.
Then when I inform you that I am not self-interested and trying to be objective, you accuse me of being incapable of being objective because I am not self-interested.
Then you accuse me of ignoring other points, all of which where contingent on the previous contrivances.

This is exactly the kind of deliberate stonewalling and sabotage of discussion I was talking about earlier.

Kindly allow me the dignity of withdrawing from this discussion without throwing aspersions at my back as I rescind.
I already said I am not concerned enough to invest time and effort in resisting the already decided and vested changes.

You can have it "your" way. I am walking away. Let me do so.

@Benny Ohu: I hope you are right.
Actually, I stated SEVERAL reasonable points, and lastly concluded that your views were coming from that of a person who is doing the missioning, and not from any other point of view. I wrongly assumed you were the person who's shoes you were standing in and for that I apologise.

You still however refused to even acknowledge any of the other points. As you did with Tippia, you picked a single point you disagreed with and focused entirely on that, as if another further was stated.

If you want to withdraw from the conversation, that's your choice, but it's plain to see it has nothing to do with us "stonewalling and sabotaging", it's because you refuse to respond to the arguments opposing yours.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.