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Mineral Reprocession Changes and Capital Production

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Blakow
Doomheim
#21 - 2014-03-20 19:15:41 UTC
350125GO wrote:
Blakow wrote:


Maybe. I can see this bumping up the value to Null space next to hi/low, especially for renters. But for those deep null regions? Not so sure. The logistics is a nightmare and fuel costs suck as you go deeper.


So HED-GP becomes the new Jita, or do you see this as a boon for NPC null space?


NPC does not get the same upgrades as Sov Null so it is exactly the same as low sec.
joyous the
Slippery Penguin
#22 - 2014-03-20 19:19:10 UTC
Plug in Baby wrote:


joyous the wrote:

So people risking more are going to gain better rewards? Why I never..

Adapt or die


I don't think you understand this discussion. People in null aren't exactly flying JFs gate to gate, they are jumping to a docking ring and docking, no risk just like low.


No, I don't think you understand. The risk is that these organizations are in positions where they have relative safety, because countless time and isk has gone into making that space safe enough for them to even have this opportunity to reap a reward. You on the other hand decided one day to jump into lowsec and cry on the forums.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#23 - 2014-03-20 19:24:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
[post deleted]

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#24 - 2014-03-20 22:52:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Steve Ronuken wrote:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rztizv7FJOTyS1KqTorge0YtRpY60Lp_bzSnWhmaRDo/edit?usp=sharing may be of interest to people.


your compression ratio numbers are too high by a factor of 100, because minerals have a volume of 0.01.

Also, your compression numbers don't take into account the efficiency of the refinery.
The rough estimate is to multiply those compression ratios by the refinery efficiency too.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#25 - 2014-03-20 23:20:36 UTC
Plug in Baby wrote:
Quote:
A character having perfect skills and standings, reprocessing anything that’s not ores and ices at a 50% station will get 55% reprocessing outcome (The Scrapmetal Processing skill is applied on the same fashion than ore specialization skills on the formula above).


With everything maxed it seems capitals will be wasting ~27% of the minerals in NPC stations compared to around 13% in outposts, I dont see how low sec will be able to compete with null.

Thoughts?



1.) Scrapmetal reprocessing becomes irrelevant. Mineral compression will not occur using Mineral Ore, not 425 Railguns. With max skills and the implant, you will get 72.358% refining efficiency. With the ore skill at 4 (which will be normal and quick to get), and the implant, you are looking at a 71.0% efficiency. This will be the exact same efficiency your nullsec competition gets unless they operate out of an upgraded Station.

2.) Most outposts are not fully upgraded. To my knowledge, tier 2 upgrades are rare, and tier 3 are very rare. Assuming same skills, if they are using a tier 1 or Tier 2 Minmatar Outpost, they will have a 6% and 14% better refining yield than you, respectively.

3.) You can use a POS in lowsec to get better-than-highsec yields using the intensive refinery. These will provide better refine rates than a Tier 1 upgraded Outpost! This would allow you to perhaps compete with nullsec even moreso, although it puts more of your assets at risk.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I might have missed it, but do starbase refining arrays now take skills into consideration?


Not for now, but they have been changed in such a way they give you 52 / 54% yield reprocess as if you had perfect skills, so that is a huge incentive to use them if you don't have all skills / implants trained. Ice will also be affected by it (no more 100% reprocess for ice in Starbase Reprocessing Arrays).
This may change later on though.


CCP Ytterbium wrote:
As mentioned before, we have authored the Starbase Reprocessing Array as if you had perfect skills; so in reality they give you a 75.3% and 78.1% reprocesing rate.


4.) Not all minerals will be optimally shipped as compressed ores. For example: Compressed Arkonor doesn't compress the Zydrine and Megacyte mineral components, but instead only compresses the Trit component. I honestly don't know how this will impact the mineral market.

To sum this up, lowsec cap production might be overshadowed by nullsec production facilities, but I'm not convinced. I honestly think there are more changes coming, and it will be interesting to see the final result.
Plug in Baby
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-03-21 00:00:26 UTC
Batelle wrote:

Not the mention, being completely off on the whole 100m-300m thing.


Sorry what is 15% of 2bn, I am clearly way off, so can you please help me out?

This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#27 - 2014-03-21 02:36:38 UTC
BeetleChribba, BeetleChribba, BeetleChribba ....

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#28 - 2014-03-21 02:53:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rztizv7FJOTyS1KqTorge0YtRpY60Lp_bzSnWhmaRDo/edit?usp=sharing may be of interest to people.


your compression ratio numbers are too high by a factor of 100, because minerals have a volume of 0.01.

Also, your compression numbers don't take into account the efficiency of the refinery.
The rough estimate is to multiply those compression ratios by the refinery efficiency too.



I've always expressed it in units of minerals per M3.

https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/compression/index-old.php?typeid=34

for example.

Of course, that's specific to a single mineral type.

The gaze survey probe has 3200 units per m3 of you look at all of them.
425mm Rail Is have 2807 units per m3. So they're all comparable.




You're entirely right about the refining, of course. you'll be losing around 20-30% or so. Which drops the rates to around the 20-1 ratio. (I've updated the sheet with that in a new column)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#29 - 2014-03-21 04:32:10 UTC
Plug in Baby wrote:
Batelle wrote:

Not the mention, being completely off on the whole 100m-300m thing.


Sorry what is 15% of 2bn, I am clearly way off, so can you please help me out?


Sorry, I've read some more of the main thread and see that you are in fact correct.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Setsune Rin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2014-03-21 09:13:22 UTC
Plug in Baby wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Well it is CCPs stated intention to move more industry to 0.0, this would appear to be part of that.

If you do find the competition from 0.0 producers to be too great for you, then you may have to consider renting an outpost.


I don't see how you could compete in low if you wanted to, the margins on caps are around 100-150m (roughly) if null build 150-300m cheaper that leaves you making a loss in low, even with a perfect set up. Sure they have to jump them to low to sell, but that still leaves a pretty big margin.

Renting an outpost is an alternative, but there are plenty of issues attached to that, as I'm sure you're aware.

I think more likely I'll end up cashing up and looking for an alternative investment, but we'll see.

.



does nullsec get extra minerals over the 100% refine with these changes?

since from what i'm reading a maxed out character can get 100% or at least north of 99% in lowsec.

or am i missing something here?
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#31 - 2014-03-21 10:41:04 UTC
Setsune Rin wrote:
does nullsec get extra minerals over the 100% refine with these changes?

since from what i'm reading a maxed out character can get 100% or at least north of 99% in lowsec.

or am i missing something here?

As I understand it, nobody anywhere will be getting a 100% refine no matter what equipment, skills or implants they have.

The confusion, I think, comes from the increase in mineral content of the ores and the comparisons being made between refining at 100% efficiency with todays mineral content versus refining at lower efficiency with summer's higher mineral content.
Setsune Rin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2014-03-21 11:06:21 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Setsune Rin wrote:
does nullsec get extra minerals over the 100% refine with these changes?

since from what i'm reading a maxed out character can get 100% or at least north of 99% in lowsec.

or am i missing something here?

As I understand it, nobody anywhere will be getting a 100% refine no matter what equipment, skills or implants they have.

The confusion, I think, comes from the increase in mineral content of the ores and the comparisons being made between refining at 100% efficiency with todays mineral content versus refining at lower efficiency with summer's higher mineral content.


i see my mistake now and actually ran the numbers

i'm coming up with a (assuming perfect everything) 11.0998% advantage for perfect minmatar stations vs maximum attainable refine in low/highsec.

for t1 production that might be off-set by the cost of moving it back to highsec

but capital producers are ******
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#33 - 2014-03-21 11:13:51 UTC
Setsune Rin wrote:

but capital producers are ******


Don't you mean purchasers? :) Also I hope I don't have many 425mm BPOs laying around...

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Setsune Rin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2014-03-21 11:20:27 UTC
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
Setsune Rin wrote:

but capital producers are ******


Don't you mean purchasers? :) Also I hope I don't have many 425mm BPOs laying around...


let me rephrase:

Quote:
But Lowsec capital producers are ******
Kendra Coldera
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#35 - 2014-03-21 12:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Kendra Coldera
Plug in Baby wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Plug in Baby wrote:
Fine if you built in Sov Null.

If you build in Lowsec like me you are dealing with a 27.6% loss when you reprocess with max skills + standings + implants


Lowsec people can use compressed ore too.


This isn't about compression, its about refining ores. No matter if the ore comes in compressed or not null sec has massive reductions in waste. I just can't see low sec competing.

I'd love to be wrong as this is my entire income, but the numbers don't lie.


This is true. Thank you CCP for completely ******* this up. If at least the arrays were on par...

Also how ******** is it to claim you want to change the situation so these reprocessing skills are not useless and THEN introduce the POS arrays that do not require any skills. Roll
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#36 - 2014-03-21 13:27:30 UTC
Kendra Coldera wrote:
Also how ******** is it to claim you want to change the situation so these reprocessing skills are not useless and THEN introduce the POS arrays that do not require any skills. Roll

I get the impression that they want to change the POS arrays so that they do take skills into account but because it involves changing the scary legacy POS code they've pushed that back to when they deal with POS in general. What they are giving us now is a temporary hack to tide us over until they can deal with it properly.
flakeys
Doomheim
#37 - 2014-03-21 13:43:13 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Kendra Coldera wrote:
Also how ******** is it to claim you want to change the situation so these reprocessing skills are not useless and THEN introduce the POS arrays that do not require any skills. Roll

I get the impression that they want to change the POS arrays so that they do take skills into account but because it involves changing the scary legacy POS code they've pushed that back to when they deal with POS in general. What they are giving us now is a temporary hack to tide us over until they can deal with it properly.



That'll be around 2021 ? Lol

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
350125GO
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2014-03-21 13:48:31 UTC
Am I completely missing something?

Unless a null-sec station is upgraded (unlikely) a POS will provide better reprocessing yield than an outpost. The same POS can be anchored in low-sec. Doesn't this just mean the low-sec cap producers will have to shift reprocessing to POS? Yes this will increase risk, but will still allow them to compete with null-sec cap producers.

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#39 - 2014-03-21 15:14:41 UTC
350125GO wrote:
Doesn't this just mean the low-sec cap producers will have to shift reprocessing to POS?

That would involve several times more work that the current approach to low-sec cap producing. As a means of making isk, it will still be viable. As a means of making isk without significant effort, it will no longer be viable.
350125GO
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2014-03-21 15:45:18 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
350125GO wrote:
Doesn't this just mean the low-sec cap producers will have to shift reprocessing to POS?

That would involve several times more work that the current approach to low-sec cap producing. As a means of making isk, it will still be viable. As a means of making isk without significant effort, it will no longer be viable.


Well, boo hoo then. As much as I hate the politics and sov grinding, null sec is empty; if this moves corps to null then it's good and could possibly end up shifting the dynamics of null sec as well.

I also understand that capital construction is complex and tedious to begin with, but if you don't want to change your methods to continue doing it in low sec then tough. Everyone in the game constantly has to re-shift the way they do things due to changes.

Though on other sub-forums the fear is that this will further enrich the goons, but I'm not so sure about that.

You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.