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Breaking News - Ishukone meets with Gallente Senate on Caldari Prime

Author
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#121 - 2014-03-22 21:56:12 UTC
There's a difference between including the other members of the CEP - therefore representing every Caldari - and between making public statements.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#122 - 2014-03-22 22:16:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Stitcher wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Ishukone is probably our best chance to finish the war on endurable terms, but Ishukone cannot end the war themselves. They need the CEP to ratify any deal they make for it to be binding on the rest of the Okusaiken - unless they're negotiating for a unilateral end to hostilities which only applies to themselves which, I believe, would actually dance pretty close to the legal definition of treason.


Or they could just be erecting a memorial monument to mark the anniversary of Operation Highlander.

Which from my perspective makes all of the mistrust and criticism and formal complaints to the CEP seem both amusing and troubling.

I'd express my hope that maybe the grumblers might learn from the egg on their collective face and show a little more respect and trust in future, if I were hopelessly naive.


There seems to have been a Federation political representative there and a State political representative there. And a Federal Navy representative. No Caldari Navy representative though.

But I was speaking in terms of a wider conclusion to hostilities and not about this one incident.

Certainly I have no problems with the inclusion of Federal dead on the memorial. Everyone there that day was fighting for what they believed in and that includes those on the OpFor. Only right that both sides should be remembered.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#123 - 2014-03-22 22:18:01 UTC
Scuse me while I go laugh my ass off over this. And let me know the next time we can all go nuts over nothing, will you? Great fun after all... Yeah... *sarcasm*
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#124 - 2014-03-22 23:03:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
I dunno, funny though it may be there are some serious political data to take home from this.

KK and Lai Dai have just revealed something of their opinion about Ishukone, and their beliefs about Ishukone's agenda and character. If intermegacorporate politics were a game, then that's the equivalent of telling another player what you think their "tell" is when bluffing before the cards have been flipped, only to run your two pair into the teeth of a full house. Yes, funny. But also valuable information for the others at the table, and especially for the target of the accusation.

All the points about trust, solidarity and respect remain valid. More so, now.

In any case, we should remember that Ishukone hold the administrative contract for Caldari Prime. It is, legally speaking, their demesnes. Under no other circumstances would a megacorporation raising a monument inside its jurisdiction produce demands that everybody else should have been included.

I realise that this is Home and the usual rules don't quite apply, but as things stand, every Caldari who is known to have died during Operation Highlander is honoured, regardless of corporate affiliation. What more is needed? What input might the other Okusaiken have usefully had into this event?

This was an event about remembering good and loyal people who died in the line of duty. It wasn't an event about megacorporations and governments, but two of the megas tried to turn it into one without knowing what was happening. Not only is that kind of vanity unbecoming of them, but such hasty-off-the-mark false starts aren't the kind of thing that a serious player can afford to be doing.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#125 - 2014-03-23 00:14:29 UTC
Note the literal *sarcasm* in that comment, Hakatain-haan. I stand by everything I've said until the reality of it changes and uninformed whine-gasms cease to be the first response to everything Ishukone does.

I am glad to see it's something worthwhile, though. The dead on both sides deserve to be remembered.
Ollie Rundle
#126 - 2014-03-23 01:04:35 UTC
If nothing else, the emotionally charged exchanges made in such a public forum have certainly been informative.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#127 - 2014-03-23 16:01:29 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
That's the best you got, Ms. Gesakaarin? Ishukone may not be your corp, but I'm not sure belittling their position is going to help yours.


What position exactly do you believe I hold? Before you make any assumptions otherwise the only positions I represent are those of an independent freelance capsuleer operating under CONCORD/DED regulations prosecuting the requirements of corporate governance in a State-registered independent SCC company. Currently, I neither represent nor am I a member or employee of any other corporation or registered organization aside from that of Pyre Falcon Defence and Security and its associated shell entity.

I consider myself nothing more than a neutral and moderate representing no other parties, open to a wide range of thoughts when communicating here on the IGS.

That said, I think I should make it clearer that my sentiments in question to which you referred was not towards Ishukone proper but rather those that profess their loyalty and support towards Ishukone in one form or another. As for belittling I believe the only one belittled in retrospect is myself: The belief that IGS is any place for discussion or rational discourse with basis in reality has done nothing but belittled my own intelligence and dignity. Especially in Caldari affairs where it appears the vocal majority take form either in Provism or Liberalism.

It might be believed that they are diametrically opposed, and perhaps they are politically but not in the practice of actually articulating themselves in public. It's rather evident that in taking two opposing positions generally: the Provists promoting war with the Gallente at all costs and the Liberals promoting peace with the Gallente at all costs, they in fact resort to the exact same sort of tactics and thinking in their rhetoric. Emotive appeals; angry, barely cogniscant ranting; appeals to representing the majority; and if called upon their thoughts that lie thin upon the ice then what occurs? Unfounded personal accusations, slander, fake outrage, and if all else fails then there's always allegations of, "Treason", which is laughable because as capsuleers we are if anything the citizens of the stars that operate under CONCORD so what state or nation indeed can we betray under the law?

Those attempts at making allegations of treason without basis in fact or reality, let alone actually having the authority to prosecute or enforce any laws under any criminal code, by both Provist or Liberal that reminds me of the saying: "Patriotism is often the last haven of craven, the coward, and the liar". For it is often the craven, the coward, and the liar that seeks to hide behind the veneer of false nobility. It becomes nothing short of venal to me when both Provist or Liberal conjures the justifications of, "For the State" to be wielded as the blunt instrument to try and beat others with the accusations of treason or disloyalty when their thoughts and arguments cannot stand upon their own merits or anyone presenting a legitimate criticism or contrary opinion to their own.

The situation becomes only more surreal to the point of actual absurdity when in reality neither a Provist nor a Liberal represents an actual majority in domestic State politics at present. The CPD has been dissolved months ago, the Office of the Executor no longer exists, and Tibus Heth is whereabouts unknown presumed dead. In comparison, Ishukone as a Megacorporation has by some estimates has an employee population of approximately one hundred billion in a Caldari State of approximately eight trillion citizens -- that's barely one percent of Caldari citizens. How does either represent any significance to Caldari as regards a majority in thought, opinion, or politics as their proponents will often assert at length at public on the IGS? The domestic political and economic agendas of the Caldari State at present have absolutely nothing to do with either Provists or Ishukone because they are set as they always have been by the Patriots and Practicals.

In truth I think neither Provist nor Liberal are actually interested in any real discussion, too busy are they promoting their own asinine narratives in The Empyrean Age they live in for either pro or contra for the continuation of war, that there cannot exist any middle ground for moderate consideration of anything in Caldari politics or thought that does not exist in the polarized opinions they hold. Presenting anything contrary to either, or persisting in asking for anything beyond what is essentially, "Because of reasons," in any position they hold will, as aforementioned receive only recriminations, condemnation and some variation on the accusation of being a, "Traitor", conducted in the style and fashion of a creche-child throwing their toys around in a tantrum because of the bruise to their self-esteem that there might exist something in the cluster as another opinion than their own.

So perhaps the only position I would say I hold at the moment is the disinclination to bother overmuch with those such as a Diana Kim or Katrina Oniseki who I see as nothing more than one and the same, or a variation upon a theme, because frankly I've already raised two children with the caveat that they at least were more aware of the world they actually lived in.

And that really is quite fine because at present I can simply exeunt stage right so to speak and spare myself the disgust and inducement of nausea caused by the vocal minorities of both Provist and Liberal forever seeking their own forms of public validation.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#128 - 2014-03-23 16:23:11 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I must admit that I am concerned about the lack of transparency in Ishukone's actions lately. They should remember that Home is for ALL Caldari and not just citizens of Ishukone. Only when all factions have an interest in the success of the peace will the peace endure.


Maybe Ishukune seeks to do in the boardroom what Heth could not do through war and claim Caldari Prime for itself. That would push them to the forefront of State leadership, after all. The only question is that to do this who will get backstabbed in the end: The State, when Ishukune sells out to the Federation completely just so they can stick their own little flag on Caldari Prime, or the Federation when Ishukune cashes in all that goodwill into seducing the Federation into giving them defacto control of the planet (and from there back into the hands of the State, again as merit claim straight to the top of the power block)?

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2014-03-23 17:13:11 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:

And that really is quite fine because at present I can simply exeunt stage right so to speak and spare myself the disgust and inducement of nausea caused by the vocal minorities of both Provist and Liberal forever seeking their own forms of public validation.

That sounds like something you should have done eight paragraphs ago.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#130 - 2014-03-23 17:49:06 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I must admit that I am concerned about the lack of transparency in Ishukone's actions lately. They should remember that Home is for ALL Caldari and not just citizens of Ishukone. Only when all factions have an interest in the success of the peace will the peace endure.


Maybe Ishukune seeks to do in the boardroom what Heth could not do through war and claim Caldari Prime for itself. That would push them to the forefront of State leadership, after all. The only question is that to do this who will get backstabbed in the end: The State, when Ishukune sells out to the Federation completely just so they can stick their own little flag on Caldari Prime, or the Federation when Ishukune cashes in all that goodwill into seducing the Federation into giving them defacto control of the planet (and from there back into the hands of the State, again as merit claim straight to the top of the power block)?


No, that would be a political miscalculation that I do not think that Mens Reppola would be capable of. To even seem to maneuver to deny the rest of the State access to Caldari Prime would cause such a backlash of rage that I tremble to think where it would end.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#131 - 2014-03-23 19:14:12 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


No, that would be a political miscalculation that I do not think that Mens Reppola would be capable of. To even seem to maneuver to deny the rest of the State access to Caldari Prime would cause such a backlash of rage that I tremble to think where it would end.

And yet....

I can barely make sense of Federal politics so forgive me for even hazarding a guess as to the machinations of our State cousins.

But knowing something about the art of the deal, should Ishukone and the Federation come to some accommodation would that constitute a “denial” of access to others?
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#132 - 2014-03-23 19:52:39 UTC
It goes something like as follows: right now, Jurisdiction of Caldari Prime on the civilian and executive level is split between the Federation government (who assume those responsibilities in Gallentean districts) and the Ishukone Corporation (Who assume them in Caldari districts)

Military, policing, security and peacekeeping is handled by Mordu's Legion.

What this technically means is that the Caldari districts of the homeworld are Ishukone property, exactly like their holdings on any other planet.

What makes it different is, of course, that this is Home. There's a lot of emotion attached to it, lots of charged feeling. So unlike every other Ishukone holding across the State, in the Empire and elsewhere, it is politically expedient for Ishukone to ensure that their borders on the homeworld remain open and that they offer no significant obstacles to any reasonable request for access.

This is why the late Commander Okuuda was able to gain access to Tovil. Those districts aren't closed and controlled like regular megacorporate demesnes. access to them is effectively unlimited to anybody who's not a member of any known terrorist group.

So, access is not being denied now, nor would it be in Ishukone's political best interest to deny it in future.

That said, these territories ARE still within the civilian jurisdiction of Ishukone, which means that they're legally perfectly entitled to develop and administer them as they see fit without needing to consult the rest of the CEP. Hence the unilateral action on the monument.

So there's a balancing act involved. The freedom of corporations to act as they see fit within their territory is having to be weighed against the knowledge that this is still the homeworld of ALL Caldari, and so while any action or development is not REQUIRED to conform to standards that would be acceptable to the rest of the State, it would still be a good idea to attempt to conform to those standards wherever reasonably practicable.

Politics and diplomacy are being juggled in other words. Whether any hypothetical deal between Ishukone and the Senate squeezed out the rest of the State would depend entirely on the terms of that deal. I doubt that Ishukone are that unwise that they would go down that road.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#133 - 2014-03-23 20:14:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


No, that would be a political miscalculation that I do not think that Mens Reppola would be capable of. To even seem to maneuver to deny the rest of the State access to Caldari Prime would cause such a backlash of rage that I tremble to think where it would end.

And yet....

I can barely make sense of Federal politics so forgive me for even hazarding a guess as to the machinations of our State cousins.

But knowing something about the art of the deal, should Ishukone and the Federation come to some accommodation would that constitute a “denial” of access to others?


Only if Ishukone is truly tired of life.

Which is not brag and bluster and threatening - it is the only logical outcome to such a move.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#134 - 2014-03-23 23:48:31 UTC
Quote:
What this technically means is that the Caldari districts of the homeworld are Ishukone property, exactly like their holdings on any other planet.


I dont know if this is correct or not. To me homeworld should belong to all the megacorporations. I know Ishukone are managing the caldari district, i see it that, they are doing it for all of us.

If they truly are Ishukone property it leaves sour taste in the mouth. That they who would object to the liberation of the homeworld by force, now own Caldari 50%. Homeworld was liberated by force 4 years ago, if it is the case that it is your property, rather than shared between all, you surely do not deserve to own it.

I dont know if Stitcher is correct on his assumption.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2014-03-24 01:23:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
TomHorn wrote:
I dont know if this is correct or not. To me homeworld should belong to all the megacorporations. I know Ishukone are managing the caldari district, i see it that, they are doing it for all of us.

If they truly are Ishukone property it leaves sour taste in the mouth. That they who would object to the liberation of the homeworld by force, now own Caldari 50%. Homeworld was liberated by force 4 years ago, if it is the case that it is your property, rather than shared between all, you surely do not deserve to own it.

Hey, guess what, "TomHorn."

I am quite literally drunk as hell. I've become this way after having a night watching holos with a dear friend of mine.

I'm going to be completely honest: for the past five, going on six years now, Ishukone have - with a truly depressing level of consistency, if I can be quite honest - been the only corporation who's actually sat down at the table with us. Ishukone have been the only people willing to clarify their position as regards the frankly blasphemous so-called "development rights" Heth auctioned to the Okusaiken and then subsequently retracted when he felt it no longer suited his purposes. Ishukone has been the only corporation that was willing to tell the State that the military occupation of Caldari Prime - and I'm sorry, whether or not the Caldari are entitled to ownership of the planet, that's what it was - was costing it far, far more than it was actually gaining them. Ishukone has been the only corporation that was actually willing to put the lives of suffering civilians ahead of its own priggish, selfish personal pride. In short, Ishukone has been the only corporation who's seen fit to treat with the Federation as if it were a group of human beings rather than a rabid animal.

If there's any Caldari who I'd say is most entitled to administrate Caldari Prime, it's ******* sure as hell not anyone other than Ishukone.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#136 - 2014-03-24 02:00:56 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


No, that would be a political miscalculation that I do not think that Mens Reppola would be capable of. To even seem to maneuver to deny the rest of the State access to Caldari Prime would cause such a backlash of rage that I tremble to think where it would end.

And yet....

I can barely make sense of Federal politics so forgive me for even hazarding a guess as to the machinations of our State cousins.

But knowing something about the art of the deal, should Ishukone and the Federation come to some accommodation would that constitute a “denial” of access to others?


Only if Ishukone is truly tired of life.

Which is not brag and bluster and threatening - it is the only logical outcome to such a move.

Bingo. Yet another reason denial of access won't happen.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#137 - 2014-03-24 03:55:51 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
I'm sure some will question the inclusion of Federation military servicemen and women on the memorial, perhaps suggesting that only the Caldari lives lost should be remembered. I think the focus on Caldari traditions places enough respectful emphasis on the defeated State forces.

It's made from Titanium Diborite, the choice and traditional material of Caldari military shipbuilding, a plate from the Shiigeru itself even. It's set on a bedrock stone from the sacred Kaalakiota Mountains themselves, in an area that was the home and birthplace of the honored Admiral Yanala herself. On top of all that, the final script is written in Raata, in the words of a Caldari Chief Executive himself.

If anything, it seems to be a Caldari memorial that happens to honor the Federation lives lost as well. It seems very much the opposite of a Federation victory monument to me.

I think... I may be almost comfortable with this. I'm hesitant, but I think I can accept this.


Oniseki-haani.

Honoring those, who caused this massacre, who occupied our planet, and who are guilty in all civilian death that day, isn't a honorable thing. If Reppola wishes to honor Federation lives in this, he should ask Roden to honor as well lives of Dragonaurs, who blew up Nouvelle Rouvenor.

If Reppola can't do this, then he is just a spineless coward, traitor and gallentean bootlicker.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#138 - 2014-03-24 04:51:37 UTC
I'll kill a Republic Navy crewmen if he starts a fight, or if he looks like starting a fight, or if he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm getting paid. Mostly if I'm getting paid. But blaming them for doing their job strikes me as downright mean, if you know what I mean?

Why not put 'em on the monument? They died in the same battle that everyone else did.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#139 - 2014-03-24 05:55:25 UTC
They died, trying to kill our civilians.

I don't mind if they put their names there, but only after gallenteans will honor Templis Dragonaurs, who died in Nouvelle Rouvenour, after they blown it up.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#140 - 2014-03-24 06:14:11 UTC
Nope, they died engaging a Caldari Navy taskforce. I repeat, I have no reason to love the Gallente but even I know that saying anything more than that they acted with reckless disregard of civilian casualties on both sides is overdoing it.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.