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Station Trading 101
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Tor Norman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-03-27 23:30:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Norman
Lucas Kell wrote:
So this could effectively be cut down to, 0.01ing is not what you do personally.

This isn't a matter of mere preference. It's a matter of chasing the highest income/hour. I don't pick up trades based on current competition because neither method that we're discussing, 0.01ing nor aggression would yield an acceptable return for my investment. 0.01ing would fail because the income/hour is always lower than my other options and aggressive trading would fail in these instances because I would have to wait too long for the investment to yield a profit.

Quote:
That in no way invalidates it as a valid method. Not everyone has to trade in the exact way you do.

You're right. My opinion on the matter has no bearing on what is best. My arguments are based on a logical breakdown of the various situations I will encounter as a trader and simply running with the option that will yield best results. If my logic is flawed, please point it out. If there's a situation I'm not considering, please let me know.

Please don't take my stance on this matter as some pig-headed defence of an opinion I'm excessively defending. I'm only human, and I can admit when I'm wrong. However, I'm yet to see a situation where 0.01ing would yield a better result than aggressive trading.

Quote:
That example was simply an example to a situation a trader could find themselves in, simplified down for ease. Maybe it was a good trade and they collided with another trade, it doesn't really matter, but dismissing it as "I'd not get there to begin with" misses the point entirely. That's like saying "how would you survive if you found yourself stuck on a desert island?" "Well I'd not get stuck on a desert island.".

Indeed. There are definitely times when I'll find myself forced to deal with competition, no matter what I do to avoid it. In those situations, it's not about clearing the competition, it's about damage control.

I talk about EVE trading and general space violence in my blog.

For the ISK and the yarr!
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#42 - 2014-03-28 14:10:21 UTC
Tor Norman wrote:
You're right. My opinion on the matter has no bearing on what is best. My arguments are based on a logical breakdown of the various situations I will encounter as a trader and simply running with the option that will yield best results. If my logic is flawed, please point it out. If there's a situation I'm not considering, please let me know.

Please don't take my stance on this matter as some pig-headed defence of an opinion I'm excessively defending. I'm only human, and I can admit when I'm wrong. However, I'm yet to see a situation where 0.01ing would yield a better result than aggressive trading.
And those have been stated numerous times, one of which being bulk trading against a competitive market. For you that's not worth it, for others, they can make a lot of isk doing it. You are stating your opinion as if you have studied every single possible conceivable variation in market, item and individual circumstance and concluded that in no situation is 0.01ing a better option. That is a pretty arrogant thing to assume.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#43 - 2014-03-28 18:44:52 UTC
I find that when most of your goods are stolen or looted none of this matters. I usually use regional averages to determine a 5-10% below average selling price and go from there = profit.

Thank me later :D
Tor Norman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2014-03-28 19:56:23 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
And those have been stated numerous times, one of which being bulk trading against a competitive market. For you that's not worth it, for others, they can make a lot of isk doing it.

As I've said. It's not a matter of opinion. "Trading is more satisfying than mission running" is an opinion. "1 billion ISK/hour is greater than 100 million ISK/hour" is an observable fact.

Running the thoery isn't sufficient to really make a conclusive claim on the matter. Maybe I'll return to this thread once I have some hard evidence.

Quote:
You are stating your opinion as if you have studied every single possible conceivable variation in market, item and individual circumstance and concluded that in no situation is 0.01ing a better option. That is a pretty arrogant thing to assume.

" My opinion on the matter has no bearing on what is best."
"If my logic is flawed, please point it out. If there's a situation I'm not considering, please let me know."
"I'm only human, and I can admit when I'm wrong."

I sense some confusion.

I talk about EVE trading and general space violence in my blog.

For the ISK and the yarr!
Percival Rose
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-04-09 11:23:53 UTC
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
I find that when most of your goods are stolen or looted none of this matters. I usually use regional averages to determine a 5-10% below average selling price and go from there = profit.

I can imagine. If you're busy pirating, you don't want to be bothered with managing your sell orders. Missing to catch that freighter may cost you more than 10% of your last score. Do you ever bulk sell the loot via contracts?

Do you know who's going to inherit New Eden? Arms dealers. Because everyone else is too busy killing each other.
Aadris
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-04-10 05:04:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Aadris
Tor Norman wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
And those have been stated numerous times, one of which being bulk trading against a competitive market. For you that's not worth it, for others, they can make a lot of isk doing it.

As I've said. It's not a matter of opinion. "Trading is more satisfying than mission running" is an opinion. "1 billion ISK/hour is greater than 100 million ISK/hour" is an observable fact.

Running the thoery isn't sufficient to really make a conclusive claim on the matter. Maybe I'll return to this thread once I have some hard evidence.

Quote:
You are stating your opinion as if you have studied every single possible conceivable variation in market, item and individual circumstance and concluded that in no situation is 0.01ing a better option. That is a pretty arrogant thing to assume.

" My opinion on the matter has no bearing on what is best."
"If my logic is flawed, please point it out. If there's a situation I'm not considering, please let me know."
"I'm only human, and I can admit when I'm wrong."

I sense some confusion.


You make some interesting points Tor. Just out of curiosity what sort of profit margins do you normally go for on items you trade? I normally shoot for at least 10% or above, preferably more like 15 or 20, i'm guessing you're after more like 5%? Part of me is wondering if I should lower the margins I go for and go for more volume. I tend to trade in very low throughput items, (3-5 a day in Jita often) and I find people are less likely to crash the margins of those items because there isn't enough capacity / demand / supply of those items for volume to be increased meaningfully by lowering prices, so people tend to stick with the margin that's there.

I only log on to adjust prices 2-3 times a day max and have assumed it's better to do low volume high margin items but your ideas about aggressively pushing down the margin to drive people and not come back out after they've sold their current stock is something I've never though of. I normally spread my risk/capital over about 50-60 orders at a time. Are you using hundreds of orders or sticking to a small number of items and focusing on them?
Tor Norman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-04-12 00:11:02 UTC
Aadris wrote:
Just out of curiosity what sort of profit margins do you normally go for on items you trade? I normally shoot for at least 10% or above, preferably more like 15 or 20, i'm guessing you're after more like 5%?

If I were station trading, I'd be shooting for around 5%, yeah. I might go as high as 10%, but I'd settle for as low as 2%.

That said, I'm not currently station trading. I'm moving goods bewteen major high-sec trade hubs as that gives me a much better return on my investment. Minimum markup is 20%, though low value items I'll try and grab >100% markup if the market allows it.

Quote:
Part of me is wondering if I should lower the margins I go for and go for more volume.

It really varies from item to item. In Dodixie, I typically target approx 1million ISK per day per market order for the low value items. If I shoot higher, I'll probably attract competition, if I shoot lower, I can probably make more money pursuing other trades.

Quote:
I only log on to adjust prices 2-3 times a day max

Personally, I only check the market once every one or two days.

Quote:
I normally spread my risk/capital over about 50-60 orders at a time. Are you using hundreds of orders or sticking to a small number of items and focusing on them?

I spread as far as skills (max orders) and my investment capital allows. That said, research for new items to trade takes time and I don't like spending much more than 30 minutes in any given trade session. As I find new items to trade, I make a note of how much I want to invest, if I run out of time, I typically use any left over cash in buying additional stock. That's not without its risks, so I try to keep these "overinvestments" to items that will still clear rather quickly.

I talk about EVE trading and general space violence in my blog.

For the ISK and the yarr!
Far Wanderer
ACGM Acquisitions
#48 - 2014-04-12 00:42:24 UTC
Always nice to read how someone else does it.

Thanks for sharing, Tor. Big smile

I really am wasting my breath though, when you can avoid questions from Hexxx and RAW23 like that you must have some seriously devoted investors. --Elizabeth Norn
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#49 - 2014-04-13 14:42:01 UTC
Tor Norman wrote:
If I were station trading, I'd be shooting for around 5%, yeah. I might go as high as 10%, but I'd settle for as low as 2%.

I'm moving goods between major high-sec trade hubs as that gives me a much better return on my investment. Minimum markup is 20%, though low value items I'll try and grab >100% markup if the market allows it.
What is your strategy for standings and skills to reduce taxes and fees?


p.s. Respect for your thoughtful posts in this thread (and the lively discussion from all parties).
Tor Norman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2014-04-13 17:17:05 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
What is your strategy for standings and skills to reduce taxes and fees?

When station trading, getting accounting, broker relations and margin trading to IV are a must. Your profits are much smaller than other types of trading offer and taxes/fees constitute a significant portion of those margins. Level V's are highly recommended, as is grinding/paying for faction standings.

Margin trading is important as buy orders will consume a significant chunk of your investment capital.

When trading pretty much any other way, broker relations and accounting are less important, but still desirable, thanks to much larger profit margins. The margin trading skill is only important if you buy a lot of goods through your own buy orders, rather than filling other people's sell orders.

As I'm trading exclusively between major trade hubs, enjoying 20-200% markups, I haven't really bothered with working on those skills just yet. I've got much more important skills to train before they become a priority for me.

I talk about EVE trading and general space violence in my blog.

For the ISK and the yarr!
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