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Senate Subcommittee claims "Culture of Secrecy at the Black Eagles"

Author
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2014-03-19 22:10:29 UTC
Cuci Cairi wrote:


And again, as I have stated several times, we do not know if they have accountability or oversight from the FIO or president. We do not know what accountability measures they do or do not have in place. There is no reason to assume they have none whatsoever. We merely know that they do not have public accountability. As it should be.


Why? What could possibly prevent the Black Eagles from saying "yes, it was us who raided John Doe's house last night." How does that compromise their secrecy? Knowing what they're up to doesn't tell me anything about their tactics, equipment, leadership, members, planned missions, or any other information that we wouldn't want falling into enemy hands.

The goal of our nation's military is to protect the nation, and a nation is nothing without it's citizens. We shouldn't know who works for the Black Eagles, we shouldn't to know their tactics, and we shouldn't know their missions. What we should know is what they are allowed to do, and what they are forbidden from doing. I highly doubt Blaque signing a statement that says "No, we won't kidnap you in the middle of the night for no reason" will compromise security.

Put it this way, I spend a great deal of my personal wealth on taxes. I should at the very least be allowed to know that my taxes won't be spent on a corrupt group.

Apollo Lyserius wrote:
Yeah, let's just allow these institutions that are already flawed from the point of view of our democracy and legal system's base principles, besides being potentially abusive, continue working until there is some kind of abuse and violation of such principles that's so evident that it can't be denied or covered up, despite circumstantial evidence that such abuses are already occurring, for us to do something about it.

Seems like a good idea.


That's unfortunately what some people seriously believe. The Black Eagles are good at what they do. Even when Operation: Highlander was leaked, there was absolutely nothing about the Black Eagles. That just shows how off the record these guys are. They could be disbanded tomorrow and the government could insist they never actually existed. But I digress.

You're not going to start hearing irrefutable stories of Black Eagles abuses until it's too late.

Noden Vorpalstar wrote:


Freedom is not Free. It comes at a great cost, and can only be maintained through eternal vigilance.



This great cost to protect our freedom, is our freedom.

James Syagrius wrote:
Why am I reminded of the old maxim “In war the law falls silent”.

A greater and wiser man that I once said. “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.”

I cannot disagree with his sentiment, It is often necessary to break the letter of the law to defend the spirit of it.


The spirit of our laws is to ensure freedom, equality, and justice for all. If we break laws that uphold those values, then what's the point of having them in the first place? How could you possibly protect the spirit of the law by trampling on it?

That's like claiming you're going to make a child sad so that he feels happier. It's completely self contradictory!

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

James Syagrius
Chatelain Auxiliary Response
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#62 - 2014-03-20 01:35:33 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
How could you possibly protect the spirit of the law by trampling on it?

If I have to explain the concept to you it would most likely be a waste of time.
Apollo Lyserius
Minerva Technologies
#63 - 2014-03-20 02:03:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Apollo Lyserius
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:


Freedom is not Free. It comes at a great cost, and can only be maintained through eternal vigilance.

We should be thankful for those in our Armed Forces and Intelligence Services who choose to serve our Federation and defend her interests.



Exactly, the cost of freedom is not having an all mighty security system allowed to violate civilian's rights even in the name of greater good.

James Syagrius wrote:
Why am I reminded of the old maxim “In war the law falls silent”.

A greater and wiser man that I once said. “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice.”

I cannot disagree with his sentiment, It is often necessary to break the letter of the law to defend the spirit of it.


I believe the ones defending liberty in an extreme point of view are me and Mr. Fred, since we're not willing to sacrifice liberty even in the name of overall security.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-03-20 02:08:00 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
How could you possibly protect the spirit of the law by trampling on it?

If I have to explain the concept to you it would most likely be a waste of time.


Probably because it's impossible to explain something that contradicts itself. What you're saying is similar to the non-existent logic behind burning your money to make sure that nobody can steal it. You're making the loss of that money a certainty to avoid the possibility it would be lost. It's just completely self defeating. Same goes for the Black Eagles. Destroying freedom to protect freedom just doesn't fit in any realm of reason.

All laws are created with Gallentean values. Break those laws, you break those values. It's really that simple.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Cuci Cairi
#65 - 2014-03-20 02:08:29 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
....we shouldn't to know their tactics...

What we should know is what they are allowed to do, and what they are forbidden from doing.


Those are mutually exclusive.

And beyond that, actions must be judged within a context. In order to hold someone's actions publicly accountable, the context also must be made public. The amount of information released in trials or committee hearings is extensive. It is not the appropriate place for accountability of intelligence agencies. Non-public committees? Non-public investigations? Feasible, and for all we know might already exist. We simply do not know.

The lack of public information is not unique to the SDII. This is common sense for how intelligence agencies function. A significant portion of their job is information; you cause that information to be public, you have removed their effectiveness. It is vital for others to not know what they do or what they know. It is simply the fundamental nature of intelligence work. What you are demanding is for the Federation to not have a team of intelligence agencies as effective as other states.

As for your attempts at political theory, James Syagrius responded sufficiently.
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#66 - 2014-03-20 02:10:43 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
They're in the Republic and Empire also; every hole in security they find they'll slither into and try to exploit.

To be fair, any intelligence agency in any empire (or corporation for that matter) that isn't doing this is bad at their job.

I was falling asleep in my chair while I composed that, so I admit it didn't quite get across the point I intended it to.

What I meant to say is that they're running operations counter to both the Republic's and Empire's interests. Naturally that's not surprising on the Amarr side. But when it comes to the Republic, you'd expect a least a little restraint, considering the two factions are supposed to be in bed together.

Back in the Navy, during my final year serving before my Capsuleer training, we caught a badly damaged FIO Thorax one day while patrolling the boarder between Caldari and Minmatar space. The emergency signal they were broadcasting was using a relatively new encryption method which the Gallente evidently thought we hadn't cracked yet. Looked like it fell victim to a pirate attack. After dealing with what remained of the security forces on board and taking what was left of the crew into custody, we began salvaging what we could from the wreck. From what we pieced together, the first two casualties were the ship AI and the Engineering sector. After that, it was pretty much a massacre. Few guns shown signs of recent firing, and all the drones were still in their bays.

As we were making sweeps of the ship, we caught one of the officers rigging the main computer banks to explode. We neutralized him before he could blow it, and began downloading the data. To make a long story short, we came across some interesting reports. Much of what we found was scrambled beyond recovery and heavily encrypted, hidden deep within the computer's data banks. But it looks like the security measures meant to destroy it were disrupted before they could complete their job.

From what we could piece together back in the Rokh's labs, it was a data package meant for some office of the Black Eagles back at wherever the ship was heading. Like I said, it was heavily damaged, but we were able to pull and piece together documents, reports and videos from it. The things inside spoke of interrogation, abductions, sabotage, and industrial and economic espionage.

Not only was it directed at Caldari and Amarr corporations operating within the Republic, but also against Federation citizens and "disruptive elements" of the Republic. People that had seemingly no solid evidence behind their supposed transgressions were being targeted for a variety of operations against them. Naturally that's part and parcel for our kind of work, but I saw reports of actions taken against diplomats and companies that, from our own investigations, were deep within the pockets of the Federation's different agencies. At times, it didn't make a whole lot of sense what the FIO and Black Eagles were doing. Sometimes they seemed to operate counter to eachother's interests.

Naturally it could have been fake. It's not unknown to plant false leads like that in ships computers as a contingency that, if they do somehow fall into enemy hands, then the supposed "information leak" could work to a benefit. But as an author to a few of those types of tactics, this didn't seem like one.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2014-03-20 02:22:54 UTC
Cuci Cairi wrote:

Those are mutually exclusive.


No, they're not. Being informed that they say, require authorization from the President in order to conduct a raid isn't going to tell me that when they storm the building, they will simultaneously enter from the roof and from the ground floor, while using drones to cover windows. It's not going to tell me all agents are trained in bayonet usage. It's not going to tell me the type of guns they use. It's not going to tell me the identities of their agents. It's not going to tell me anything that could possibly endanger a mission.

Cuci Cairi wrote:
And beyond that, actions must be judged within a context. In order to hold someone's actions publicly accountable, the context also must be made public. The amount of information released in trials or committee hearings is extensive. It is not the appropriate place for accountability of intelligence agencies. Non-public committees? Non-public investigations? Feasible, and for all we know might already exist. We simply do not know.


It's not the unknown that worries me. It's that people like you are content with the unknown. All it takes is a man in a suit with an Eagle pin to convince you that everything is fine.

Cuci Cairi wrote:
The lack of public information is not unique to the SDII. This is common sense for how intelligence agencies function. A significant portion of their job is information; you cause that information to be public, you have removed their effectiveness. It is vital for others to not know what they do or what they know. It is simply the fundamental nature of intelligence work. What you are demanding is for the Federation to not have a team of intelligence agencies as effective as other states.


You still fail to realize nothing of what I or any other inquisitive Federal citizen is asking for will make the Black Eagles any less effective at their job. Does knowing the grounds that a police officer can arrest you for make them less effective? No. Does knowing how our military is trained make them any less deadly? No.

If the Black Eagles completely fall apart just from people knowing what they're allowed and not allowed to do then they are the worse intelligence agency in the cluster.

Cuci Cairi wrote:

As for your attempts at political theory, James Syagrius responded sufficiently.


You mean refusing to answer a question? Yeah, a sheep like you probably likes that.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2014-03-20 02:30:48 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:

Naturally it could have been fake. It's not unknown to plant false leads like that in ships computers as a contingency that, if they do somehow fall into enemy hands, then the supposed "information leak" could work to a benefit. But as an author to a few of those types of tactics, this didn't seem like one.


You have to wonder Ms. Maxwell, what would the Black Eagles have to gain from vilifying themselves? Such information could only work against them. Even if they say "Oh! That was just a false lead obviously!" nobody with a mind would believe it. Especially if this leak came from a credible source.

Same goes for these alleged defectors telling their grim stories. They are trying to keep their identities very secret. Wouldn't someone trying to fabricate a story for fame and fortune make themselves very well known? People need to ask why someone would do something when trying to determine if someone would do something.

That said, it worries me that people in the State are more likely to share my concerns about the Black Eagles than my own fellow Gallente. It sort of shows how far we have fallen from what the Federation stands for.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Cuci Cairi
#69 - 2014-03-20 03:46:59 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

You mean refusing to answer a question? Yeah, a sheep like you probably likes that.


Obviously this conversation has long since reached its limitations. In the future, you would do well to remember that disagreeing on a single issue does not require the people involved to sling insults at each other or begin to view the other as some form of enemy, especially when they are ostensibly on the same side in the grand scheme of things. And considering how underrepresented the Federation is in public forums such as this, it is even more relevant.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#70 - 2014-03-20 03:54:20 UTC
Next week: Muck Raker disappears. Black Eagles deny any involvement.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2014-03-20 04:41:11 UTC
Cuci Cairi wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

You mean refusing to answer a question? Yeah, a sheep like you probably likes that.


Obviously this conversation has long since reached its limitations. In the future, you would do well to remember that disagreeing on a single issue does not require the people involved to sling insults at each other or begin to view the other as some form of enemy, especially when they are ostensibly on the same side in the grand scheme of things. And considering how underrepresented the Federation is in public forums such as this, it is even more relevant.


James started getting passive agressive with me and you supported him. In response, I called you a sheep. Quit pretending you have the moral high ground.

I don't view you as an enemy, stop being melodramatic. The only people that I consider my enemies are those who at any point in time posed a real threat to me or someone I cared about.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Cuci Cairi
#72 - 2014-03-20 04:51:54 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

James started getting passive agressive with me and you supported him. In response, I called you a sheep. Quit pretending you have the moral high ground.

I don't view you as an enemy, stop being melodramatic. The only people that I consider my enemies are those who at any point in time posed a real threat to me or someone I cared about.


He merely realized the pointlessness of continuing the conversation earlier than I did. Also, I hardly think I am being melodramatic. You were the one beginning to wax philosophical about the foundations of the Federation being thwarted.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2014-03-20 08:34:25 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
But when it comes to the Republic, you'd expect a least a little restraint, considering the two factions are supposed to be in bed together.

The Federation and the Republic are allies, not friends. It's an important (and unfortunate) distinction. Particularly for a nation surrounded by peoples (such as the State and the Republic) more concerned with immediate desires and less concerned with prior obligations and agreements.

It's not savory, or flattering, or particularly nice, but the fact remains that the Federation (nor any other empire) can expect to survive long without having a dedicated underhand to keep its fingers on the pulse (or jugular) of outside threats.

Fredfredbug4 wrote:

That said, it worries me that people in the State are more likely to share my concerns about the Black Eagles than my own fellow Gallente. It sort of shows how far we have fallen from what the Federation stands for.

To clarify my own position on the issue: I haven't directly spoken about the Black Eagle's alleged crimes against and within the Federation simply because I find it frankly a given that such things should be investigated and prosecuted with extreme prejudice wherever they are believed to exist.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2014-03-20 11:13:11 UTC
Cuci Cairi wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

James started getting passive agressive with me and you supported him. In response, I called you a sheep. Quit pretending you have the moral high ground.

I don't view you as an enemy, stop being melodramatic. The only people that I consider my enemies are those who at any point in time posed a real threat to me or someone I cared about.


He merely realized the pointlessness of continuing the conversation earlier than I did. Also, I hardly think I am being melodramatic. You were the one beginning to wax philosophical about the foundations of the Federation being thwarted.


He said it wasn't worth explaining to me, as if I was unworthy of having something answered. You used that to jab at my political views. Again, stop pretending. All I did was call you a sheep, something Anslo did earlier and you didnt bat an eye at, so why now?

So being concerned about our values is melodramatic now? Worrying if the values that make the Federation different and special are being protected is unwarranted? Being upset when the very foundations that caused trillions of people to flock to us are broken is now silly?

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#75 - 2014-03-20 14:07:25 UTC
Setting aside our differences of opinion regarding the best way to secure liberty and defend freedom. Has this report been verified by any other source, other than Gutter Press? If a Senate subcommittee investigation into the value of budget programs, paid for with Federal tax money exists, why is it only being reported on by one news agency? Such actions by our elected officials would be much more suspicious than assumptions about the operations conducted by FIO, SDII or other intelligence agencies.

I think this begs the question of the integrity of The Gutter Press, and only exposes their intent to either smear the intelligence community through unwarranted fear-mongering , or to garner attention through sensationalist articles.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2014-03-20 14:08:50 UTC
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
Setting aside our differences of opinion regarding the best way to secure liberty and defend freedom. Has this report been verified by any other source, other than Gutter Press? If a Senate subcommittee investigation into the value of budget programs, paid for with Federal tax money exists, why is it only being reported on by one news agency? Such actions by our elected officials would be much more suspicious than assumptions about the operations conducted by FIO, SDII or other intelligence agencies.

I think this begs the question of the integrity of The Gutter Press, and only exposes their intent to either smear the intelligence community through unwarranted fear-mongering , or to garner attention through sensationalist articles.


It's a satire/parody of real news.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Cuci Cairi
#77 - 2014-03-20 14:30:15 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

He said it wasn't worth explaining to me, as if I was unworthy of having something answered. You used that to jab at my political views. Again, stop pretending. All I did was call you a sheep, something Anslo did earlier and you didnt bat an eye at, so why now?


I don't have much respect for Anslo, and rarely read anything he posts.

Fredfredbug4 wrote:

So being concerned about our values is melodramatic now? Worrying if the values that make the Federation different and special are being protected is unwarranted? Being upset when the very foundations that caused trillions of people to flock to us are broken is now silly?


Arguing that one issue is somehow breaking "the very foundations" is melodramatic, yes. The Federation is far more resilient than that.
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#78 - 2014-03-20 14:35:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Noden Vorpalstar
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
Setting aside our differences of opinion regarding the best way to secure liberty and defend freedom. Has this report been verified by any other source, other than Gutter Press? If a Senate subcommittee investigation into the value of budget programs, paid for with Federal tax money exists, why is it only being reported on by one news agency? Such actions by our elected officials would be much more suspicious than assumptions about the operations conducted by FIO, SDII or other intelligence agencies.

I think this begs the question of the integrity of The Gutter Press, and only exposes their intent to either smear the intelligence community through unwarranted fear-mongering , or to garner attention through sensationalist articles.


It's a satire/parody of real news.


I believe my point may have been lost or misunderstood, so in that case allow me to ask a different way.

Where is the real news?

Answer: There is none, this is a fake controversy.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2014-03-20 14:52:22 UTC
Cuci Cairi wrote:

Arguing that one issue is somehow breaking "the very foundations" is melodramatic, yes. The Federation is far more resilient than that.


You, James, and Noden are all supporting the notion that there are sacrifices to be made. You are in favor of giving away freedom for security. The Federation is certainly very resilient, and it has withstood far greater threats than the Black Eagles. However, the Federation is not invincible. All it takes is the right people with the right actions to do great harm to our nation. All it took was one traitorous man to let the Caldari into Luminaire. If the Black Eagles in their current state really wanted to do something nefarious, they easily could.

Norden Voralstar wrote:

I believe my point may have been lost or misunderstood, so in that case allow me to ask a different way.

Where is the real news?

Answer: There is none, this is a fake controversy.


Gee, I never would of guessed.

Gutter Press has never tried to pass themselves off as a news source. All their reports are greatly exaggerated or completely false. However, just because the actual story might be false, doesn't mean the issue it's trying to address is false as well.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Cuci Cairi
#80 - 2014-03-20 15:06:39 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

You, James, and Noden are all supporting the notion that there are sacrifices to be made. You are in favor of giving away freedom for security. The Federation is certainly very resilient, and it has withstood far greater threats than the Black Eagles. However, the Federation is not invincible. All it takes is the right people with the right actions to do great harm to our nation. All it took was one traitorous man to let the Caldari into Luminaire. If the Black Eagles in their current state really wanted to do something nefarious, they easily could.


I have yet to make many qualitative or explicitly political statements in this discussion because I didn't think it was relevant. I was merely stating the obvious about intelligence agencies, then became surprised when others apparently did not know how their very concept functioned. I did not defend rumored SDII actions, nor did I at any point argue they were beyond reproach. I have argued for nothing but their activity and orchestration to remain out of the public eye.

I do not see the point in throwing about platitudes about freedom and security. There is, and always has been, a continuum between freedom and security that can't be aptly discussed or described by merely decrying others as taking away the former.