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Senate Subcommittee claims "Culture of Secrecy at the Black Eagles"

Author
Anslo
Scope Works
#21 - 2014-03-18 18:22:20 UTC
Don't you disrespect the fair and balanced news source that is the Gutter Press.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#22 - 2014-03-18 18:39:28 UTC
Muck Raker wrote:
1. It is not a specific investigation committee examining the SDII, the subcommittee's role is scrutinising value for money for a number of programmes.

2. As a media corporation that is not beholden to any one nation state government, Gutter Press Interstellar Media Corporation has a great deal more editorial flexibility in reporting news, compared to other news agencies, who are often restricted by political concerns. Our journalism colleagues at Amarr Certified News would find it hard to cover news stories such as finding the Bottomless Pit, due to theological concerns.

3. I see you dismiss the opinions of 3 Federal citizens, due to their profession, while not dismissing the views of a 4th citizen, a drone whisperer. Perhaps you consider some professions beneath contempt, hmmm?

4. On the subject of secret intelligence services being secret. The SDII operate a number of starships, purchased at taxpayers expense. Who are the contractors that supply those ships? What is the cost of the SDII specific modifications? How does the average Federal Citizen know that their tax money is being spent appropriately? How does the average citizen know that these ships are not simply a means to siphon taxpayers money into the contractors wallets? If the SDII pay 2Bn isk for a modified Megathron, where is the evidence that the money was well spent ? And not something like 2Bn ISK for a 1.5Bn Megathron and 500M ISK into the contractors slush fund?


1. Noted.

2. After reviewing the story on The Bottomless Pit, I would say... "Gutter Press - Sensationalism at its Best!!!"

3. I overlooked the "drone whisperer", however no contempt intended.

4. The identity of contractors supplying ships, and equipment should remain undisclosed to the public eye due to security reasons, as should budgeting specifics.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

Steffanie Saissore
Tyrathlion Interstellar
Rote Kapelle
#23 - 2014-03-18 18:41:21 UTC
Apollo Lyserius wrote:
Steffanie Saissore wrote:

I think you fail to understand the nature of grey and black operations. If FIO felt the need to spy upon your friends and organization, they are not going to approach you and ask your permission or even inform you of the fact as it would compromise their informant/agent.

I personally have a great dislike for the organization known as Black Eagles as they are not actually under the umbrella of the FIO. We do not need the Eagles.

We do need a security/intelligence agency and that agency does need to have the flexibility to operate within the fringes. There does need to be oversight and accountability, but their operations and scope of power need not be made publicly known.


I do not fail to understand the nature of such operations. I actually know them quite well.

Intelligence organizations can't simply spy on someone when they feel they need to. They need a judicial order. They need to go to a judge and present the adequate reasons for spying someone: e.g., he/she has a history of felony or is under high suspicions. That's the kind of accountability I'm talking about.

If civilians are being monitored without respect to the due process, because Intelligence agencies can act in total secrecy, then I'd like to know, so I can do my part against it. That's my entire point here.


I think you missed the point where I said there needs to be oversight and accountability...

Also, why should we be privy to judicial warrants issued in such cases? Wouldn't that also compromise ongoing operations if the public had access to judicial warrants issued to allow tapping and other surveillance measures or even other types of operations?

The problem with security and secrecy is that they do not fit well inside our comfortable sphere of personal freedom. They do not get along. We want freedom and have everything out in the open whereas the Intelligence community is based upon secrets and being able to operate outside the normal constraints of society.

And this is why I dislike the Black Eagles, they are a private organization not subject to the same oversight as the FIO. But that is another matter.

We travel in the dark of the new moon,

A starry highway traced on the map of the sky

Arista Shahni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2014-03-18 18:56:01 UTC
Leaves me pleased that I am a Capsuleer. Our ship economy is quite open and transparent to the observing bodies involved.

"I say that even as the holy and the righteous cannot rise beyond the highest which is in each one of you - so the wicked and the weak cannot fall lower than the lowest which is in you also.  And as a single leaf turns not yellow but with the silent knowledge of the whole tree, so the wrong-doer cannot do wrong without the hidden will of you all."

TomHorn
Berserkers.
#25 - 2014-03-18 19:10:13 UTC
[/quote]Noden Vorpalstar
Quote:
4. The identity of contractors supplying ships, and equipment should remain undisclosed to the public eye due to security reasons, as should budgeting specifics.


You obviously have alot of trust and confidence in your goverment Noden
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#26 - 2014-03-18 19:53:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Noden Vorpalstar
TomHorn wrote:
You obviously have alot of trust and confidence in your goverment Noden


In this case I certainly do. As I stated earlier...

Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
Hearsay, presuppositions, and unfounded accusations are not evident of any wrong doings or breaches of public trust by intelligence operatives or officials.

Those agencies who work within the sphere of intelligence operations are entrusted by those elected by the people, with the safe guarding of information and activities which are of vital importance to The Federation and its allies.

Unimpeded vigilant intelligence operations are crucial to ensuring that The Federation stays ready to respond to a wide range of threats.


I have seen no verifiable evidence that persuades me individual freedom of Federation citizens has been violated or is endanger.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#27 - 2014-03-18 21:40:51 UTC
Why are we taking a GP story so seriously? O.o

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Straton Technos
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-03-18 21:56:58 UTC
The Black Eagles protect the interest of the Gallente people and our sovereignty. Sure they operate in a shroud of secrecy but that's what makes them effective, and also plants fear in enemies of the Federation.

I understand that we are a progressive society and fully support that. However, the Gallente Federation can not continue to stand without the work and dedication of the Military Forces, and the work of our Intelligence agencies including the Black Eagles.

Our way of life, and in order to continue to be Champions Of Freedom and Democracy depend on these types of organizations.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-03-18 22:12:03 UTC
Straton Technos wrote:

Our way of life, and in order to continue to be Champions Of Freedom and Democracy depend on these types of organizations.



Because nothing says freedom like an organization that can spy on you, arrest you, kidnap you, or even murder you for literally any reason they see fit. Because nothing says Democracy like an organization who's leader was appointed essentially for life, and can disregard any laws that have been voted on for literally any reason they see fit.

All they need is the suspicion (let alone actual proof) that you are a threat to national security (which can be as petty as jaywalking or supporting radical political groups) in order to justify ruining or even ending your life.

If we are truly dependent on the Black Eagles, then the Federation is dead. Luckily, we aren't. At least not yet.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Straton Technos
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-03-18 22:20:06 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Straton Technos wrote:

Our way of life, and in order to continue to be Champions Of Freedom and Democracy depend on these types of organizations.



Because nothing says freedom like an organization that can spy on you, arrest you, kidnap you, or even murder you for literally any reason they see fit. Because nothing says Democracy like an organization who's leader was appointed essentially for life, and can disregard any laws that have been voted on for literally any reason they see fit.

All they need is the suspicion (let alone actual proof) that you are a threat to national security (which can be as petty as jaywalking or supporting radical political groups) in order to justify ruining or even ending your life.

If we are truly dependent on the Black Eagles, then the Federation is dead. Luckily, we aren't. At least not yet.


We depend on them amongst many other organizations within the government, not solely. Which is why they were created in the first place. let us not forget the Defeat of Luminaire which spurred the creation of the Black Eagles to create an "Emergency Integrity Commission" which would ensure that the nation's military leadership not only had the aptitude to lead their forces to victory, but that they met the high moral standards of the Gallente Federation while doing so.

Apollo Lyserius
Minerva Technologies
#31 - 2014-03-19 01:12:05 UTC
Straton Technos wrote:


Our way of life, and in order to continue to be Champions Of Freedom and Democracy depend on these types of organizations.



No, dude, it doesn't.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-03-19 01:45:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Straton Technos wrote:

We depend on them amongst many other organizations within the government, not solely. Which is why they were created in the first place. let us not forget the Defeat of Luminaire which spurred the creation of the Black Eagles to create an "Emergency Integrity Commission" which would ensure that the nation's military leadership not only had the aptitude to lead their forces to victory, but that they met the high moral standards of the Gallente Federation while doing so.



The Black Eagles was not created to ensure the competence and morality of our commanders. They were created to hunt down anyone they could consider a "traitor". I will be the first to say that such an organization is necessary. However, there should be clear definitions as to what this organization is, and what it can and cannot do because at the moment there aren't any.

This is what worries me a lot, because several Black Eagles defectors such as Agent Mornay mention that there are innocent (that's right not even guilty) Federal citizens being killed or taken away never to be seen again. But of course, what makes the Black Eagles scary is not that they are an omnipotent and omniscient, organization that can do literally whatever it wants to you. No, it's far worse than that.

What makes the Black Eagles absolutely horrifying is that they are an omnipotent and omniscient organization that can do literally whatever it wants to you and Federal Citizens are okay with it.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-03-19 01:48:21 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Why are we taking a GP story so seriously? O.o


Gutter Press, while comedic and satirical in nature, does bring up topics worthy of serious discussion.

Well...most of the time...

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#34 - 2014-03-19 02:19:08 UTC
Straton Technos wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Straton Technos wrote:

Our way of life, and in order to continue to be Champions Of Freedom and Democracy depend on these types of organizations.



Because nothing says freedom like an organization that can spy on you, arrest you, kidnap you, or even murder you for literally any reason they see fit. Because nothing says Democracy like an organization who's leader was appointed essentially for life, and can disregard any laws that have been voted on for literally any reason they see fit.

All they need is the suspicion (let alone actual proof) that you are a threat to national security (which can be as petty as jaywalking or supporting radical political groups) in order to justify ruining or even ending your life.

If we are truly dependent on the Black Eagles, then the Federation is dead. Luckily, we aren't. At least not yet.


We depend on them amongst many other organizations within the government, not solely. Which is why they were created in the first place. let us not forget the Defeat of Luminaire which spurred the creation of the Black Eagles to create an "Emergency Integrity Commission" which would ensure that the nation's military leadership not only had the aptitude to lead their forces to victory, but that they met the high moral standards of the Gallente Federation while doing so.


High moral standards? You don't have any idea how morbidly hilarious that is.

If you could see some of the reports documenting their actions, your opinion of them would change for the worse. Unfortunately, not only are those reports either classified or declassified but censored to the point of uselessness, they're also from some of the agencies diametrically opposed to the Black Eagles. So that's even less reason for you to believe the validity of them.

What I can do is suggest you watch the news more closely in the coming months. It's only a matter of time, really.
Straton Technos
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2014-03-19 03:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Straton Technos
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
[quote=Straton Technos]
We depend on them amongst many other organizations within the government, not solely. Which is why they were created in the first place. let us not forget the Defeat of Luminaire which spurred the creation of the Black Eagles to create an "Emergency Integrity Commission" which would ensure that the nation's military leadership not only had the aptitude to lead their forces to victory, but that they met the high moral standards of the Gallente Federation while doing so.



The Black Eagles was not created to ensure the competence and morality of our commanders. They were created to hunt down anyone they could consider a "traitor". I will be the first to say that such an organization is necessary. However, there should be clear definitions as to what this organization is, and what it can and cannot do because at the moment there aren't any.

I believe you are mistaken on this, yes the organization was created in response to traitors but it was an integrity commission. That is clearly defined in the history books.

There is clear definition to what the organization is and why it was founded.

In fact where you say my description is wrong, was pulled directly from the same source your provided for the ALLEGED defector. Thats selective sourcing. https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Black_Eagles
Straton Technos
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-03-19 03:08:34 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
Straton Technos wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Straton Technos wrote:

Our way of life, and in order to continue to be Champions Of Freedom and Democracy depend on these types of organizations.



Because nothing says freedom like an organization that can spy on you, arrest you, kidnap you, or even murder you for literally any reason they see fit. Because nothing says Democracy like an organization who's leader was appointed essentially for life, and can disregard any laws that have been voted on for literally any reason they see fit.

All they need is the suspicion (let alone actual proof) that you are a threat to national security (which can be as petty as jaywalking or supporting radical political groups) in order to justify ruining or even ending your life.

If we are truly dependent on the Black Eagles, then the Federation is dead. Luckily, we aren't. At least not yet.


We depend on them amongst many other organizations within the government, not solely. Which is why they were created in the first place. let us not forget the Defeat of Luminaire which spurred the creation of the Black Eagles to create an "Emergency Integrity Commission" which would ensure that the nation's military leadership not only had the aptitude to lead their forces to victory, but that they met the high moral standards of the Gallente Federation while doing so.


High moral standards? You don't have any idea how morbidly hilarious that is.

If you could see some of the reports documenting their actions, your opinion of them would change for the worse. Unfortunately, not only are those reports either classified or declassified but censored to the point of uselessness, they're also from some of the agencies diametrically opposed to the Black Eagles. So that's even less reason for you to believe the validity of them.

What I can do is suggest you watch the news more closely in the coming months. It's only a matter of time, really.


Clearly News stations have no propaganda behind them. That is always FACTUAL information. Ill be sure to tune into the gutter press. I can appreciate your opinion on this matter, however are you relying on the news to get your facts?
Cuci Cairi
#37 - 2014-03-19 03:45:49 UTC
All of the folks listing actions taken by the Black Eagles are completely wasting their time. The fact is, rumors are simply rumors, hearsay is simply hearsay. Those such as Mornay were nothing but unknown individuals interviewed by journalists. Nothing they have said has ever been verified in any way. He told a story, people listened. There's no way of knowing if it was true.

The simple fact of the matter is that intelligence agencies cannot properly function with public oversight and the actions of the Black Eagles, whatever they may or may not be, do not have noticeable detriment on the lives of Federation citizens. Our daily lives continue on as normal with the SDII currently functioning as it is - and if that functioning helps preserve that daily life, it surely could no longer do so if it was open to public scrutiny. Uncomfortable truths and unsettling actions are handled by every government so their average citizen doesn't have to. Freedom is attained through security.
Anslo
Scope Works
#38 - 2014-03-19 06:00:40 UTC
Straton Technos wrote:
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
Straton Technos wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Straton Technos wrote:

Our way of life, and in order to continue to be Champions Of Freedom and Democracy depend on these types of organizations.



Because nothing says freedom like an organization that can spy on you, arrest you, kidnap you, or even murder you for literally any reason they see fit. Because nothing says Democracy like an organization who's leader was appointed essentially for life, and can disregard any laws that have been voted on for literally any reason they see fit.

All they need is the suspicion (let alone actual proof) that you are a threat to national security (which can be as petty as jaywalking or supporting radical political groups) in order to justify ruining or even ending your life.

If we are truly dependent on the Black Eagles, then the Federation is dead. Luckily, we aren't. At least not yet.


We depend on them amongst many other organizations within the government, not solely. Which is why they were created in the first place. let us not forget the Defeat of Luminaire which spurred the creation of the Black Eagles to create an "Emergency Integrity Commission" which would ensure that the nation's military leadership not only had the aptitude to lead their forces to victory, but that they met the high moral standards of the Gallente Federation while doing so.


High moral standards? You don't have any idea how morbidly hilarious that is.

If you could see some of the reports documenting their actions, your opinion of them would change for the worse. Unfortunately, not only are those reports either classified or declassified but censored to the point of uselessness, they're also from some of the agencies diametrically opposed to the Black Eagles. So that's even less reason for you to believe the validity of them.

What I can do is suggest you watch the news more closely in the coming months. It's only a matter of time, really.


Clearly News stations have no propaganda behind them. That is always FACTUAL information. Ill be sure to tune into the gutter press. I can appreciate your opinion on this matter, however are you relying on the news to get your facts?

MUH FREEDUMZ

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Muck Raker
Gutter Press
#39 - 2014-03-19 06:40:44 UTC
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:

The identity of contractors supplying ships, and equipment should remain undisclosed to the public eye due to security reasons, as should budgeting specifics.


There is a considerable difference between the public knowing something such as that FIO ships are fitted out at Auvergne V - Moon 5 - Federal Intelligence Office Assembly Plant, and the Senate knowing classified information not intended for the public eye, such as that ships are purchased from Planet Q - Roden Shipyards Factory.

When information is classified such that the Senate is not allowed to know the information, then that means that the SDII do not trust Senators ability to follow official secrets policies relating to keeping classified information secure. Which means that the SDII believe the Senate to be infiltrated by enemies of the Federation. Or at least by people that the SDII believe to be "enemies of the Federation", that is, people the SDII have authority to eliminate.

So, when there's a Secret Service that is not answerable to the Senate, and that has authority to eliminate Senators as "enemies of the Federation", then... isn't that something that Federation citizens should at least be concerned about ?

Rumours, Wars, Rumours of Wars, Wars of Rumours!

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-03-19 11:55:05 UTC
Straton Technos wrote:

I believe you are mistaken on this, yes the organization was created in response to traitors but it was an integrity commission. That is clearly defined in the history books.

There is clear definition to what the organization is and why it was founded.

In fact where you say my description is wrong, was pulled directly from the same source your provided for the ALLEGED defector. Thats selective sourcing. https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Black_Eagles


If they truly are an integrity commission, then they certainly have moved onto other things. That is not their main goal and you really shouldn't be deluding yourself to think differently.

Cuci Cairi wrote:
All of the folks listing actions taken by the Black Eagles are completely wasting their time. The fact is, rumors are simply rumors, hearsay is simply hearsay. Those such as Mornay were nothing but unknown individuals interviewed by journalists. Nothing they have said has ever been verified in any way. He told a story, people listened. There's no way of knowing if it was true.


Yes rumors are rumors and hearsay is hearsay but they start from somewhere. Agent Mornay is just one of many alleged defectors. Many people coming out of an organization, all saying similar stories about it has to have some degree of truth to it. One or two people might be blatant liars, but when more and more people start saying the same thing, you have to listen. Agent Mornay is just one of them.

And you have to ask, why would these people start rumors in the first place? They're identities are hidden. Agent Mornay is just a pseudonym and most defectors don't even give a false name. Clearly they are not trying to gain popularity or money from these stories. So the only other reason they would start talking is because their stories might have some merit.
Cuci Cairi wrote:

The simple fact of the matter is that intelligence agencies cannot properly function with public oversight and the actions of the Black Eagles, whatever they may or may not be, do not have noticeable detriment on the lives of Federation citizens. Our daily lives continue on as normal with the SDII currently functioning as it is - and if that functioning helps preserve that daily life, it surely could no longer do so if it was open to public scrutiny. Uncomfortable truths and unsettling actions are handled by every government so their average citizen doesn't have to. Freedom is attained through security.


Are you not a little concerned that their power could be abused? How long will it take before being "a threat to the Federation" moves into supporting differing political parties? Saying "seditious" things? Hell it's probably started already. I used to be a staunch supporter of the Black Eagles, but then I started to think about an old and ancient totem.

"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither"

What's the point of defending ourselves from an enemy, if we become our own enemy?

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!