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Solo PVP among larger class ships?

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#21 - 2014-03-17 00:13:14 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
What can we do as a community to foster an environment where people aren't afraid to take risks and are willing to man up and fly those battleships solo looking for other solo battleships to fight?

Should we promote honor? Should CCP offer some kind of incentive for taking risks, like spotlighting the aftermath of their adventures with EvE news reports, leading to some sort of notoriety for those who prove they are willing to take on daunting challenges that the majority of the player base proves it's unwilling to do?

What do we, as a community need to do to increase the frequency of solo battleship pilots flying without help in hostile space looking for a fight to prove they're better and braver than everyone else?


It's not about people being afraid to take risks. It's not even really classifiable as a risk, it's more of a guarantee that you'll lose your ship.

Some types of ships just are not viable for solo, that's fine, there are plenty of ships that aren't viable in fleets, either.

So there isn't anything "the community" has to do, or can do about this. As long as battleships are slow (they always will be, CCP has taken steps to make them slower recently, in fact) and as long as frigates can get under their guns (which must always be the case, because otherwise there is no point in flying them), battleships will remain fundamentally unviable for solo gameplay.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#22 - 2014-03-17 00:15:46 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Great post


+1. Worth more than a like.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#23 - 2014-03-17 00:35:47 UTC
The thing no one has mentioned yet is the importance of tackling, and the range limit of warp zappers, which is only about 24km tops unless you're flying a ship tweaked out just for that one purpose.

Your typical frigate/destroyer engagement is often at 15km or less and a cruiser fight might get to the outer edges of 24km. But battleships? Most are designed to fight at long range - they're artillery pieces, basically, meant to sit and shoot, not go places. Which means that most battleship fights are, under normal circumstances, aimed at ranges outside warp zapper range. So as soon as someone starts to lose, they just warp off.

Which is why "hero tacklers" exist - to prevent exactly this from happening.

Now if CCP were to make a type of warp zapper that could reach out to 150km... I think the amount of 1vs1 battleship fights might go up a little. Not a lot, but a little, as at least this one issue would be solved.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#24 - 2014-03-17 01:12:37 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
The thing no one has mentioned yet is the importance of tackling, and the range limit of warp zappers, which is only about 24km tops unless you're flying a ship tweaked out just for that one purpose.

Your typical frigate/destroyer engagement is often at 15km or less and a cruiser fight might get to the outer edges of 24km. But battleships? Most are designed to fight at long range - they're artillery pieces, basically, meant to sit and shoot, not go places. Which means that most battleship fights are, under normal circumstances, aimed at ranges outside warp zapper range. So as soon as someone starts to lose, they just warp off.

Which is why "hero tacklers" exist - to prevent exactly this from happening.

Now if CCP were to make a type of warp zapper that could reach out to 150km... I think the amount of 1vs1 battleship fights might go up a little. Not a lot, but a little, as at least this one issue would be solved.


It would be an interesting dynamic, certainly. However I can see such a thing becoming absurdly abusable. Even if you made it cost absurd amounts of cap, or hideously hard fittings, given the nature of remote cap transfer, logistics and remote sebos it wouldn't be that hard to keep it alive and crazy effective.

Slap it on, for example, a ewar ship with their massive targeting range, and damn near anything that you can point with it, would be unable to attack back.

That's really the balancing point of warp disruption modules, that if you are within range to use it, you are likely within range to be attacked back.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Pew Terror
All of it
#25 - 2014-03-17 01:13:26 UTC
In theory , yes
In practice, killboard stats
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#26 - 2014-03-17 01:21:42 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
What can we do as a community to foster an environment where people aren't afraid to take risks and are willing to man up and fly those battleships solo looking for other solo battleships to fight?

Should we promote honor? Should CCP offer some kind of incentive for taking risks, like spotlighting the aftermath of their adventures with EvE news reports, leading to some sort of notoriety for those who prove they are willing to take on daunting challenges that the majority of the player base proves it's unwilling to do?

What do we, as a community need to do to increase the frequency of solo battleship pilots flying without help in hostile space looking for a fight to prove they're better and braver than everyone else?


It's not about people being afraid to take risks. It's not even really classifiable as a risk, it's more of a guarantee that you'll lose your ship.



Because of the EvE culture. The culture that is, but doesn't have to be.
Cheng Musana
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2014-03-17 01:36:07 UTC
Battleships are just too slow to do that. If you come as neut with a BS into nullsec you attract alot of attention. Most of the time you willl get zerged by interceptors if you use a BS. common rule for BS in nullsec when its flying solo:

-its a bait ship with cyno or at least 30 friends next door
-he is crazy and wants to throw away ISK
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#28 - 2014-03-17 01:43:50 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
What can we do as a community to foster an environment where people aren't afraid to take risks and are willing to man up and fly those battleships solo looking for other solo battleships to fight?

Should we promote honor? Should CCP offer some kind of incentive for taking risks, like spotlighting the aftermath of their adventures with EvE news reports, leading to some sort of notoriety for those who prove they are willing to take on daunting challenges that the majority of the player base proves it's unwilling to do?

What do we, as a community need to do to increase the frequency of solo battleship pilots flying without help in hostile space looking for a fight to prove they're better and braver than everyone else?


It's not about people being afraid to take risks. It's not even really classifiable as a risk, it's more of a guarantee that you'll lose your ship.



Because of the EvE culture. The culture that is, but doesn't have to be.


There's no "EVE culture" that makes frigates the best thing to fly solo. It's not "culture", it's the way the game works. Unless you call not playing the game wrong "EVE culture".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jeoph
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-03-17 01:51:02 UTC
Correct me if I'm mistaken...but isnt it fairly standard naval doctrine that battleships rarely, if ever, roam around un-escorted by Cruisers, Destroyers and Frigates? At least not in a time of war or while operating in hostile territory?
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2014-03-17 02:05:35 UTC
Jeoph wrote:
Correct me if I'm mistaken...but isnt it fairly standard naval doctrine that battleships rarely, if ever, roam around un-escorted by Cruisers, Destroyers and Frigates? At least not in a time of war or while operating in hostile territory?


Well there was the Bismarck, though technically not solo as she did have a heavy cruiser and three destroyers as support :D

Not sure that worked out all that well for the Kriegsmarine though.



The truth of it is the EVE game mechanics do not really suit "I want to strut around in pimped up shiney overpowered stuff" for PvP. Shiney battleships have their place in incursion fleets but cruisers, T3s and high alpha battle-cruisers tend to be the limit for unsupported PvP roaming. Similarly with caps, you might get the odd carrier soloing level Vs but they do not survive long if someone spots them. A lot of newer players get upset by this, but its just how the game is.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#31 - 2014-03-17 02:12:09 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
What can we do as a community to foster an environment where people aren't afraid to take risks and are willing to man up and fly those battleships solo looking for other solo battleships to fight?

Should we promote honor? Should CCP offer some kind of incentive for taking risks, like spotlighting the aftermath of their adventures with EvE news reports, leading to some sort of notoriety for those who prove they are willing to take on daunting challenges that the majority of the player base proves it's unwilling to do?

What do we, as a community need to do to increase the frequency of solo battleship pilots flying without help in hostile space looking for a fight to prove they're better and braver than everyone else?


It's not about people being afraid to take risks. It's not even really classifiable as a risk, it's more of a guarantee that you'll lose your ship.



Because of the EvE culture. The culture that is, but doesn't have to be.


There's no "EVE culture" that makes frigates the best thing to fly solo. It's not "culture", it's the way the game works. Unless you call not playing the game wrong "EVE culture".


Nah, more referring to people seeing a battle ship solo and instead of hopping into their own battle ship to fight him solo, they tell their friends to dishonorably blob that solo battleship pilot down instead of having a proper fight.

You know, the whole eve culture of avoiding all risk to yourself while capitalizing on the risks of others.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#32 - 2014-03-17 02:12:57 UTC
Jeoph wrote:
Correct me if I'm mistaken...but isnt it fairly standard naval doctrine that battleships rarely, if ever, roam around un-escorted by Cruisers, Destroyers and Frigates? At least not in a time of war or while operating in hostile territory?


Are we delving into real world comparisons with EvE?

Only say the words
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#33 - 2014-03-17 02:46:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Divine Entervention wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
What can we do as a community to foster an environment where people aren't afraid to take risks and are willing to man up and fly those battleships solo looking for other solo battleships to fight?

Should we promote honor? Should CCP offer some kind of incentive for taking risks, like spotlighting the aftermath of their adventures with EvE news reports, leading to some sort of notoriety for those who prove they are willing to take on daunting challenges that the majority of the player base proves it's unwilling to do?

What do we, as a community need to do to increase the frequency of solo battleship pilots flying without help in hostile space looking for a fight to prove they're better and braver than everyone else?


It's not about people being afraid to take risks. It's not even really classifiable as a risk, it's more of a guarantee that you'll lose your ship.



Because of the EvE culture. The culture that is, but doesn't have to be.


There's no "EVE culture" that makes frigates the best thing to fly solo. It's not "culture", it's the way the game works. Unless you call not playing the game wrong "EVE culture".


Nah, more referring to people seeing a battle ship solo and instead of hopping into their own battle ship to fight him solo, they tell their friends to dishonorably blob that solo battleship pilot down instead of having a proper fight.

You know, the whole eve culture of avoiding all risk to yourself while capitalizing on the risks of others.



You mean seeing someone behave in a stupid fashion, then behave just as stupidly.... because gudfites?

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-03-17 03:01:38 UTC
Lets be clear.

Battleships are not cool, or impressive nor are they expensive to replace.

Despite a complete obsession with "battleships" by new players they are a relatively ineffectual class of ships that fulfill a specific role in PvE missioning and in bluesec SOV battles.

They cost a minimal amount (just a few hundred million fitted for a T1) and you see them everywhere in missioning systems like Lanngisi. Even the pirate ones are not that pricey, i just picked up a batch of Rattlesnake BPC for $250 million which will work out at roughly $400 mill per hull constructed.

You simply do not get people posting in chat going "oh wow i just saw an Abaddon how cool". You definitely do get that if a remnant Nyx/Hel/Wyvern pokes its head out in hisec.

I seriously think CCP should rename the current battleships "Heavy Battlecruisers" and call the current Dreadnaughts battleships. it will save a lot of confusion for new players and cure the ridiculous and detrimental Battleship obsession many suffer from.

Why do people not solo PvP in battleships?
1. They suck at it
2. This in essence is a naval FLEET game not some sort of space jousting
3. They are not seen by most people as a particularly "cool" or impressive class of ship anyway
Kaerf Arkanghel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2014-03-17 03:20:06 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
What can we do as a community to foster an environment where people aren't afraid to take risks and are willing to man up and fly those battleships solo looking for other solo battleships to fight?

Should we promote honor? Should CCP offer some kind of incentive for taking risks, like spotlighting the aftermath of their adventures with EvE news reports, leading to some sort of notoriety for those who prove they are willing to take on daunting challenges that the majority of the player base proves it's unwilling to do?

What do we, as a community need to do to increase the frequency of solo battleship pilots flying without help in hostile space looking for a fight to prove they're better and braver than everyone else?


It's not about people being afraid to take risks. It's not even really classifiable as a risk, it's more of a guarantee that you'll lose your ship.



Because of the EvE culture. The culture that is, but doesn't have to be.


nit picking...didn't you read the next pharagraphs he wrote? here let me qoute him for you:

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Some types of ships just are not viable for solo, that's fine, there are plenty of ships that aren't viable in fleets, either.

So there isn't anything "the community" has to do, or can do about this. As long as battleships are slow (they always will be, CCP has taken steps to make them slower recently, in fact) and as long as frigates can get under their guns (which must always be the case, because otherwise there is no point in flying them), battleships will remain fundamentally unviable for solo gameplay.


BCs are slow and can't hit frigates therefore not viable to fly it solo, it needs supports.

Just Add Water
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-03-17 03:26:07 UTC
Kaerf Arkanghel wrote:


BCs are slow and can't hit frigates therefore not viable to fly it solo, it needs supports.



That is incorrect. I have solo'd in battlecruisers myself many times, particularly the Gnosis and the Brutix, and have not had trouble with frigates. Additionally, there are many I know within the game who solo with battlecruisers in lowsec, particularly the Talos, and do just fine as well, including in fights against frigates. To say they "can't hit frigates" is an absolute that is untrue. What you actually mean is, you can't hit frigates with them, which just means you still have something to learn.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#37 - 2014-03-17 03:27:48 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Kaerf Arkanghel wrote:


BCs are slow and can't hit frigates therefore not viable to fly it solo, it needs supports.



That is incorrect. I have solo'd in battlecruisers myself many times, particularly the Gnosis and the Brutix, and have not had trouble with frigates. Additionally, there are many I know within the game who solo with battlecruisers in lowsec, particularly the Talos, and do just fine as well, including in fights against frigates. To say they "can't hit frigates" is an absolute that is untrue. What you actually mean is, you can't hit frigates with them, which just means you still have something to learn.


That, and I was mostly talking about battleships as a general rule.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-03-17 03:31:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
*Snip* Removed quote of a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.

If you're in a battleship, expect a blob. I've been blobbed plenty. I have been solo'ing in a Nightmare lately, and I expect to lose it as soon as someone catches wind of where I'm using it. I'm not afraid, I look forward to fights against the odds. If I win, it's a great victory. If I lose, I can thank my opponent for the challenge, and for the honour they do me by feeling I am dangerous enough to bring so many ships. It's a no-brainer, really, it all comes back to what you're prepared to lose.

*Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kaerf Arkanghel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2014-03-17 03:49:40 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:


That is incorrect. I have solo'd in battlecruisers myself many times, particularly the Gnosis and the Brutix, and have not had trouble with frigates. Additionally, there are many I know within the game who solo with battlecruisers in lowsec, particularly the Talos, and do just fine as well, including in fights against frigates. To say they "can't hit frigates" is an absolute that is untrue. What you actually mean is, you can't hit frigates with them, which just means you still have something to learn.


BCs, aw sorry i mean BS as in battleships, i mean i qouted Kaarous after all, my bad. P

Just Add Water
Jill Chastot
WE FORM BL0B Inc.
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2014-03-17 03:51:34 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
*Snip* Removed quoting of an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.

The problem isn't solo PvP in a battleship, it's that you'll almost never get a 1:1 fight. More often than not you'll instead be tackled by an interceptor then dogpiled. Which is why you'll almost never see battleships outside of fleets or missioning in high-sec.


So since everyone is afraid all the time because they think everyone else is going to cheat by bringing in others, no one is willing to take a risk as a 1v1 pilot in an expensive battleship.

Which means that when it does happen, it becomes a spectacle. So it comes down to since everyone is weak and afraid, none of them are willing to stand on their own and man up.

EvE has turned into an excuse factory where instead of coming up with reasons why you should do something, you spend all day coming up with reasons why you should not do something.

Man up. Or are you afraid of losing some pixels?


Learn to bring friends.

BR- Happened because people were willing to dogpile into fights. Being "weak and afraid" has nothing to do with winning fights,

Go up to a 6"7 body builder and sock him one, then complain it wasn't a fair fight because he didnt hold back on you.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."