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The Eve Fallacy That Drives Me Nuts
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Sturmwolke
#101 - 2014-03-14 17:08:42 UTC
The sky blue.

Oh look a cloud ..
Person A : It's frog
Person B : Nope, it's a lizard, you ninny.
Person C : Whaaat ... nooo. Wtf, haven't you seen an elephant before?
Me : Oh, it's just a cloud.

:D
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#102 - 2014-03-14 17:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Tippia wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
After you plug it in, you are doing more SP per minute, and you can get those 768 000 SP faster at lvl V. Flat bonus, but it costs you less time for lvl V with higher atributes than with lower, atributes coresponding to this skill I have to add
You are very very confused. Implants are not skills are not attributes, and the differences between different-bonused implants were still never in question.

So no. It's still a flat increase no matter what you're training and no matter what level it is.

Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:
what drives me nuts is when new guy know it alls come into Eve and think they know it all, make a statement about advice they were given, and are wrong.
So the OP manages to keep you sane, then, I take it.


Where did i said that Implants are skills are attributes? You have misunderstood me obviously. What i have said is implants give attributes and more of a certain attributes give you more SP per minute, so you have more skills in less time, and when SP amount for skill is huge, you get huge time savings, something is wrong?

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2014-03-14 17:10:33 UTC
Kristopher Rocancourt wrote:
what drives me nuts is when new guy know it alls come into Eve and think they know it all, make a statement about advice they were given, and are wrong.


Good that the OP was right then.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2014-03-14 17:12:30 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
and when SP amount for skill is huge, you get huge time savings, something is wrong?


Yes, you are wrong. The time saved will always be the same, unless you stop training altogether.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#105 - 2014-03-14 17:14:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Where did i said that Implants are skills are attributes?
Every time you start talking about lvl-V:s and +5:s that had nothing to do with the actual issue and try to argue against the simple and unavoidable fact that implants give you a flat increase in training speed, no matter what skill you're training and to what level.

Quote:
something is wrong?
None of it is germane to what the thread us actually about. Also, the skill you're training does not in any way alter how much faster implant lets you train.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#106 - 2014-03-14 17:17:24 UTC
Pain Killer13 wrote:
So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.


If you know the truth of the matter then why do you give a damn about what people are saying?
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#107 - 2014-03-14 17:21:44 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
and when SP amount for skill is huge, you get huge time savings, something is wrong?


Yes, you are wrong. The time saved will always be the same, unless you stop training altogether.


Same as what? As huge time savings compared to +1 implant? Yea right.

Quote:
None of it is germane to what the thread us actually about.


So we are not talking about the implants making difference at lvl v skill training? What implants? I think we are here to discuss just that. Because the amount of SP per minute is linked to the attributes implants give you, and the amount of SP for skill needed to get that skill finally.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2014-03-14 17:23:16 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
and when SP amount for skill is huge, you get huge time savings, something is wrong?


Yes, you are wrong. The time saved will always be the same, unless you stop training altogether.


Same as what? As huge time savings compared to +1 implant? Yea right.


Did you have a stroke recently?
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#109 - 2014-03-14 17:26:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
No i didnt, i would like to know what same time saved you are talking about. Definitely not the same as mine time savings. Lol

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#110 - 2014-03-14 17:32:22 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
So we are not talking about the implants making difference at lvl v skill training?
We are talking about implants making the same difference regardless of whether you're training for lvl V of a skill or lvl I–IV.

It has nothing to do with attributes or different-bonused implants.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#111 - 2014-03-14 17:40:16 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#112 - 2014-03-14 17:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: E-2C Hawkeye
Pain Killer13 wrote:
Trii Seo wrote:
Actually, they're right.

When you start training skills with high multipliers, you'll see more difference when having implants - a set of +4's will shave a week or so off your skill rather than few hours.



See this is what I'm saying. If you have a month worth of LVL 1's queued up or a month lvl 5, the time reduction will be the same. So they are just as beneficial for new players as they are for vets. (assuming you don't get podded which most new players don't)

10% off 48 hours vs. 10% off 10000 hours is how they are looking at it. 10% is 10% but will always be greater with longer training times.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#113 - 2014-03-14 17:59:07 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Pain Killer13 wrote:
Trii Seo wrote:
Actually, they're right.

When you start training skills with high multipliers, you'll see more difference when having implants - a set of +4's will shave a week or so off your skill rather than few hours.



See this is what I'm saying. If you have a month worth of LVL 1's queued up or a month lvl 5, the time reduction will be the same. So they are just as beneficial for new players as they are for vets. (assuming you don't get podded which most new players don't)

10% off 48 hours vs. 10% off 10000 hours is how they are looking at it. 10% is 10% but will always be greater with longer training times.


Hey, that is what everyone here tries to say.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2014-03-14 18:09:01 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
10% off 48 hours vs. 10% off 10000 hours is how they are looking at it. 10% is 10% but will always be greater with longer training times.


For individual skills, yes. But if you look at a month of training lvl1-3 skills and at a month of training lvl5 skills you will see that the amount of time saved by implants is the same in both cases.
Qalix
Long Jump.
#115 - 2014-03-14 18:09:32 UTC
Pain Killer13 wrote:
So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.

You know what drives me nuts? Players who ask for advice, are given poor, incomplete, or incorrect answers by the playerbase, and then complain about the playerbase, rather than complaining about CCP's incredibly awful new player experience and lack of useful information and tutorials. Place the blame where it's warranted, not on the people who took time to help you, regardless of the quality of that hlep. Ungrateful wretch.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#116 - 2014-03-14 18:13:22 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
10% off 48 hours vs. 10% off 10000 hours is how they are looking at it. 10% is 10% but will always be greater with longer training times.

Hey, that is what everyone here tries to say.

Then “everyone” makes the nonsensical assumption that you only ever train one skill and then stop. Of course, that's not how people ever train skills so it doesn't actually work that way.
Pain Killer13
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2014-03-14 18:15:12 UTC
I appreciate those who understood the original point of the thread and helped defend it while I went to sleep - IE Tippia.

This thread has nothing to do with the value of using +3 vs +5 Implants, or balancing if you are going to die or not when deciding what implants to use. Those points aren't relative to the discussion.

I apologize to those "vets" who I offended in topic by giving the impression I know it all. I don't, and that is why I often chat with vets in length about theory and gameplay. I also read a lot online about the game. I'm just trying to learn, so that's why it's frustrating when I find people giving bad advice. And I don't just mean in passing advice in the newb help channel of comments like "don't worry about implants right now." I'm talking about specific people who believe that implants are more beneficial to high level skills than they are to low level skills. That's the problem I have.

I think it should be evident that people do not understand the concept of how implants work and how they benefit the short trains just as much as they benefit the long trains (as long as you keep you queue full). Seems as if around 50% of the posters or more can't quite grasp it.
Pain Killer13
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2014-03-14 18:24:46 UTC
Qalix wrote:
[
You know what drives me nuts? Players who ask for advice, are given poor, incomplete, or incorrect answers by the playerbase, and then complain about the playerbase, rather than complaining about CCP's incredibly awful new player experience and lack of useful information and tutorials. Place the blame where it's warranted, not on the people who took time to help you, regardless of the quality of that hlep. Ungrateful wretch.


I am not complaining about the player base as a whole, just those who think they know better only because their join date was before mine. I am not ungrateful, and continue to seek advice. I just see this belief come up very often, and I try to explain how it works, but being 6 weeks old in game, I am waved off as wrong and am told "just wait till you train a long one, then you will see."

Also I don't see any reason to blame CCP. The game is what is. The correct info is published out there. Maybe I should blame them for not having a useful vet training tutorial?
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#119 - 2014-03-14 18:25:34 UTC
Anyone else getting flashbacks to the days of Learning Skills from this thread?

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
#120 - 2014-03-14 18:33:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarod Garamonde
Tippia wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:

You are a classic example of a noob that doesn't listen.
We haven't been playing this game for years and years just to know nothing.

He knows a hell of a lot more than those giving blatantly false advice, thats's for sure, so not listening to them is really a good thing.


I'm pretty sure that what most of the people who say things like this mean is "don't bother with implants, right away"... they're just using the wrong words to get that point across. Perhaps I should have said it like this:

"By all means, noob, plug in the "free" implants you get from the early missions.... but until you learn how to get your pod out after losing a ship, or at least be able to afford re-purchasing all those implants, it's probably a bad idea to buy them with your own ISK.
And, buying PLEX to sell for ISK is a bad idea, in the first year. It teaches you that ISK is value-less.

Learn fundamentals like opportunity cost, ISK/hour, "safety is an illusion in EVE", how to avoid losing a ship, and how to focus your skill training, before you worry about buying learning implants. THAT'S what these people are actually trying to say (at least I hope that's what they're trying to say), which is actually pretty good advice. Because you're probably going to get podded, a lot, as a noob... and that gets to be an expensive habit if you're always jacking +5's into your dome."

That make more sense, Tippia?

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]