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The Eve Fallacy That Drives Me Nuts
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Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#61 - 2014-03-14 11:26:58 UTC
Flaved, time restricted? Restricted, but that doesn't mean its flaved. Flaved would be to not do something when the time is right or restricted.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#62 - 2014-03-14 12:03:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Bonus is the same in percentage, but the gain in days and hours is much more for lvl 5 then lvl 1 and that is what people wanted to say to him.

The problem is that it's a nonsensical thing to say.

You want to gather the 210k SP required to take a skill to V using a 27+17 remap for 2130 SP/h. You figure this is too slow and slot in a couple of +3s. Now you have 30+20 for 2400 SP/h. In percentage terms, you train 11% faster and finish 10% sooner. In absolute terms, you train 270 SP/h faster and finish 11 hours sooner.

The newbie figures that lvl V skills are for chumps and fills his queue with lvl I skills instead. It turns out, there aren't enough of them in the game, so he start filling the queue up with lvl II skills as well. And lvl III skills. All in all, he sticks 26 skills to lvl III in there for a total of 210k SP and starts training using a 27+17 remap for 2130 SP/h. He figures this is too slow and slots in a couple of +3s, making him train at 30+20 for 2400 SP/h. In percentage terms, he trains 11% faster and finishes 10% sooner. In absolute terms, he trains 270 SP/h faster and finishes 11 hours sooner.

Because implants do not “make a bigger difference at lvl V”. The gain in days and hours on his training lvl I–III skills is the same as for you training your lvl V skill. If the newbie didn't bother with implants until he started going for lvl V skills, he'd be down several million SP compared to if he had used them to speed up the training of the lower levels.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2014-03-14 12:04:47 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Bonus is the same in percentage, but the gain in days and hours is much more for lvl 5 then lvl 1 and that is what people wanted to say to him.


The gain in training time is the exact same. It simply doesn't matter if you are training skills to level 1 or to level 5, implants will always save you the same time.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#64 - 2014-03-14 12:11:42 UTC
I'll let you in on a little secret about EVE's playerbase.

Most of the them are terrible at this game.

Not today spaghetti.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#65 - 2014-03-14 12:16:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Bonus is the same in percentage, but the gain in days and hours is much more for lvl 5 then lvl 1 and that is what people wanted to say to him.


The gain in training time is the exact same. It simply doesn't matter if you are training skills to level 1 or to level 5, implants will always save you the same time.


What the "same time" do you mean? Percentage of time saved with same implant? Yes, its true. But 1 day is far from 2 days, using different implants is not the same time anytime.

Tipia is partially right, because we are talking here about vets, and new player is far from vet. Vet's perspective is far from new player perspective.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-03-14 12:23:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Sipphakta en Gravonere
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Bonus is the same in percentage, but the gain in days and hours is much more for lvl 5 then lvl 1 and that is what people wanted to say to him.


The gain in training time is the exact same. It simply doesn't matter if you are training skills to level 1 or to level 5, implants will always save you the same time.


What the "same time" do you mean?


What it says. There is no difference between training a month of lvl1-3 skills or a month of lvl5 skills - implants will have saved the same time in both cases.

Quote:
But 1 day is far from 2 days, using different implants is not the same time anytime.


It doesn't matter since people rarely train only one skill to 1 and then stop training entirely.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#67 - 2014-03-14 12:32:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Quote:
What it says. There is no difference between training a month of lvl1-3 skills or a month of lvl5 skills - implants will have saved the same time in both cases.


You can complete trenning faster with +5 implants, is that the same time for finishing later with +3 implants? Also, how long do you train lvl 5 skills, and how long do you train lvl 1 skill? When +5 implants give you the greater difference in time total/finishing faster from +1? When you have to train lvl 5 skill.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2014-03-14 12:37:06 UTC
Quote:
You can complete trenning faster with +5 implants, is that the same time for finishing later with +3 implants?


Well, that wasn't the question here. Obviously, with level 5 implants you learn faster than with level 3 implants. But it still wouldn't matter what level of skill you are training - the time saved is the same, no matter what skill and level you are training.

Quote:
Also, how long do you train lvl 5 skills, and how long do you train lvl 1 skill?


Why does that matter?

Quote:
When +5 implants give you the difference in time total/finishing faster from +1? When you have to train lvl 5 skill.


Sorry, I can't parse that.
Pew Terror
All of it
#69 - 2014-03-14 12:42:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Pew Terror
Can only confirm this.

A high percentage of long time players talk your ear of with false and repetetive statements and nonsense. This game attracts a lot of self entitled people that wanna feel smart, but simply arent.

Just find one of the smart ones and have him/her tell you how its done.

On the OPs subject: Learning Implants give you a flat increase in SP/hour, any argument besides that is useless drivel.

You earn exactly: ([Primary attribute] + [Secondary attribute /2]) SP/minute
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#70 - 2014-03-14 12:42:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
It doesn't matter since people rarely train only one skill to 1 and then stop training entirely.

I think that's the entire crux of the matter. The “advice” the OP objects to is only correct under one condition: that you stop training. The problem is that no-one does that so the advice is useless in regards to that one instance and plain false in every other case.

Bagrat Skalski wrote:
You can complete trenning faster with +5 implants, is that the same time for finishing later with +3 implants? Also, how long do you train lvl 5 skills, and how long do you train lvl 1 skill? When +5 implants give you the greater difference in time total/finishing faster from +1?
The difference between different-bonus implants was never in question. You always get the same difference between +5 and +1 implants because the difference is always the same: 4 more SP per minute on your primary and 2 more SP per minute on your secondary.
Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2014-03-14 12:44:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Balshem Rozenzweig
He's trolling. He started by defending a dumb idea and decided to bring the conversation to idiotic level just so he won't have to admit his point didn't make any sense.

He thinks that notoriously denying the math will make us believe he knows we're right, and that he was only referring to "something else entirely", which we don't, in return, get. This way he's still as super smart as he believes he is.

Implants = gain, when you look at skilling as a process that takes place for every second, every day, and every months you subscribe. Implants =/= gain when you have queued minmatar frigate level 1 and then stopped skilling up altogether.

"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#72 - 2014-03-14 12:47:28 UTC
Don't talk rubbish if you didn't train lvl 5 for all battleships. I will not give up on those better implants because they are somehow worth some "same time" you talk, and they dont give you advantages in learning at this level of gameplay, when you rarely train lvl1. Lol

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Jenna Jiggles
#73 - 2014-03-14 12:56:24 UTC
Pain Killer13 wrote:
So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.


Both the vets and yourself are right because you are using a qualifying statement that they are not. "if you're training skills with the same attributes", this is almost never the case when setting 30 days worth of skills for a new char but is the case when you have 1x 30day skill to train.

That is why implants are more useful for players that are training skills to V and less useful for newbies who are Destroyer I-IV, Small Hybrid I-IV, Afterburner I-IV, Cap junk I-V etc. attributes don't match.
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#74 - 2014-03-14 13:01:14 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Ha, if you are training lvl 5 without +5 implants, you have definitely too much time. Roll


Why is that? Do you have a set ending from when you will stop playing the game so the training needs to be finished before set time?

I hardly ever use my implants clone because I can not be bothered with it. I play this game to have fun flying and losing ships and meanwhile I train skills. The skill training is not the goal but the means in this game to have fun so it doesn't matter whether it takes one day or 15 to train a skill. When the skill is trained it just offers more options, nothing more and nothing less. How much time I have to spend is moot.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#75 - 2014-03-14 13:01:49 UTC
Greater attributes, thats why we have thois implants, are always good to have, but even better to have them at the late game, when you have run out of lvl I-IV skills.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Notorious Fellon
#76 - 2014-03-14 13:03:06 UTC
Many of you fail at either basic comprehension, or basic math. Maybe both.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#77 - 2014-03-14 13:03:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Greater attributes, thats why we have thois implants, are always good to have, but even better to have them at the late game, when you have run out of lvl I-IV skills.


Why finishing faster? Because you can fly it earlier. Why? To not wait for it any longer. Roll You finish training your skill and you go to another one lvl V. People, give me those lvl 5 implants if you don't need them for god's sake.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Balshem Rozenzweig
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2014-03-14 13:05:27 UTC
Jenna Jiggles wrote:
Pain Killer13 wrote:
So one thing that drives me nuts is vets who are quick to give advice to new guys like me but have no idea what they're talking about. It happens a lot. But the main thing that drives me up the wall is the tons of people who say "implants make a bigger difference when you start training skills to LVL V." Ugh it drives me so nuts, if you're training skills with the same attributes, the implants/remaps give the exact same bonus to lvl 1 skills as they do lvl 5. There is no difference!


Please someone correct me here and tell me I'm wrong. I've been playing for around 6 weeks and have heard this said 100 times and I can't stand it.


Both the vets and yourself are right because you are using a qualifying statement that they are not. "if you're training skills with the same attributes", this is almost never the case when setting 30 days worth of skills for a new char but is the case when you have 1x 30day skill to train.

That is why implants are more useful for players that are training skills to V and less useful for newbies who are Destroyer I-IV, Small Hybrid I-IV, Afterburner I-IV, Cap junk I-V etc. attributes don't match.


but how? If you have the implants for all stats it doesn't matter what you're skilling. Remap does, but you don't have to choose between int or wil implant. You can have them both.

Maybe older guys use jump clones to store +5 implants matching their current remap, but it's irrelevant here

"NUTS!!!" - general McAuliffe
artform fazeone
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2014-03-14 13:09:00 UTC
My suggestion to you is: focus on leveling up the vital skills.. Then return back to the implant skill.

1_1 Let's.. have an erotic.. arousing.. sensual.. journey.. through the universe.. The Star Ocean.. (^_-) artform fazeone

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#80 - 2014-03-14 13:14:32 UTC
Jenna Jiggles wrote:
Both the vets and yourself are right because you are using a qualifying statement that they are not. "if you're training skills with the same attributes", this is almost never the case when setting 30 days worth of skills for a new char but is the case when you have 1x 30day skill to train.
It's actually fairly common for new players for the simple reason that they either get a flat remap, so it doesn't matter what they train, or because they learn about EVEMon and get led towards a common multi-purpose remap such as Int/Per, which equalises the training time for all kinds of core and support skills you want to train early one.

Filing a 30 day plan with the skills that train at a flat rate across the board is actually rather easy, even for a newbie.

And of course, the remap does not alter how much any implants you have give you — it's still 60/30 SP per hour per bonus point — and the kinds of skills you train or the levels you're training for still don't alter how much the implants help you.