EVE General Discussion

That sad face is for you. There is no room for perspective, and there is no room for opinion on the matter. It is simply math. There is right, and there is wrong. It's just a concept I guess that's out of reach.


(Arguing but you die, how much it costs, doingremaps, jump clones, etc etc are just tangents that have nothing to do with the matter. I however am grateful to Nevyn Auscent and tippia. Thanks for letting me know someone else out there gets it)

Yes all true, but aside from new players keen to get shiney ships, does anyone really care what SP you have and how quickly it builds up ?

You can give me all the sad faces you like.

That won't change the fact that for a new player there is a difference because more skills = more flexibility and if you train implants and skills to level 5 that will equal fewer skills relevant to what you want to do.

I am even willing to put my money where my fingers type on this.

I will happily roll a new character and plex it to train it over a 7 day period and if you do the same and train your implants and then skills through to level 5, we'll see which character has more options at the end of that week.

So if you are happy to accept that, we can work on the details and run the test.

New players don't need to be training many skills to level 5; and I think that's where this whole thing starts.

It's a difference of perspective on what is important for a new player. Skills at level 5 or more skills.

The advice I have received from veteran players in my own Corp on this rolls that apsect of it into the advice, without explicitly saying it.

It is quite possible to hold a different perspective on the one statement, because the intent of the statement is more complex that a one-dimensional interpretation.

Just in the same way that one person can claim the sequence 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 is a sequence of random numbers and others can be gob smacked by such a statement. Two perspectives that may both be right, but one group has a difficult time seeing the others interpretation.

But that's a completely separate topic that has nothing to do with what the OP is pointing to.

He's pointing to the fact that he keeps hearing the claim that implants don't help as much when training lower skill levels as when going for the higher ones. This is clearly completely nuts — the speed increase is the same no matter what levels you train; the time saved going through a given slog of SP is the same regardless of whether it consists of high or low levels.

The whole “lower levels are better targets for newbies” is a separate matter altogether and if anything further reinforces that the implants are just as helpful even for short skills. Hell, arguably more so if you look at the bang for your buck…

The first may be true, but new players generally quickly get their hands on implants as part of the initial “what do I do now” confusion (read: lots and lots of L1 missions).

The second is at best half-true. It takes next to no time or money to open up all the implants a newbie needs. It's 75k ISK and 15 minutes. I'd actually argue that it should be one of the first skills they train when considering the immense improvement it offers the character.

The third point is iffy and makes all kinds of assumptions about what they do in those early days, and it doesn't alter the incorrectness of the “guidance” offered to those players.

The fourth point is somewhat besides the point, but I suppose it fits neatly with the overall pattern of “helpful” people in the newbie chat channels giving horribly misinformed advice. Anyway, that's why my signature exists…

In percentage terms yes. In absolute terms no.

Just the same as I said before.

Implants do not provide the same absolute time benefit in going from 0 - 1 as they do to go from 4 - 5.

Before you are training to level 5, they have less value and the time taken to train cybernetics is potentially better spent elsewhere.

There is even a new player skill plan that somewhere says:


I totally agree with that, as I have throughout this thread. Later on, they can be applied optimally.

We clearly have different interpretations of the same statement which is fine, but going round and round the same round about is pointless.

You are quite simply wrong on this one and seem to be unable to admit it.

Here a simple example:

You train a skill in spaceship command to level 5 taking a total of 30 days without implants. If you put in implants you will safe x days.
Compared to that you train multiple skills at lower levels in the same catergory for a total of 30 days without implants. If you put in implants you will safe x days.

I really should not need to point this out but: x in case one equals x in case two -> no matter if you look at relative numbers or absolute numbers the gain from implants in both cases is exactly the same. And that is what the topic is about.

Uma, it's not a case of being unable to admit when I am wrong.

This is simply a case of having a different perspective on whether a new player should be training skills to level 5 at all.

Spaceship Command isn't a skill I believe a new player needs to train to level 5 until later on.

As a skill, it provides 2% improvement in agility (it could be 5% per level, but my memory is a bit shot right now), so there is no reason for a new player to train it beyond 4 and really 3.

Level 5 opens up a few more skills like advanced spaceship command, industrial command ships and perhaps some others. They aren't in any way relevant to a new player. Level 5 in that skill is not important until you have a specific need to open up the skills it makes available.

So my position, all the way along but perhaps worded differently here is, forget training for implants so you can get to level 5 a bit faster. Just don't train many skills to level 5 at all early on and focus on training other skills instead. Then for a new player, don't put time into cybernetics training or even remaps. Just train the skills you need to do what you want to do.

Worry about the rest later on and even the remaps can be better used when you know why you need them.

That has been my consistent interpretation of the underlying message that was referenced in the OP. Vet players advising new players that they don't need to worry about implants until they start training skills to level 5.

Now you can go and train cybernetics and throw in a set of implants and then every level of every skill you train gains benefit from that. As a new player, I believe that time is better just spent training skills other than cybernetics.

But also as indicated earlier, if the OP doesn't like the advice he is given from others around him, ignore it and train for his implants. In the longer term, they help anyway, but he has to sacrifice training for something more relevant to a new player if he choses to train cybernetics instead.

…but that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing the benefits implants provide when training different levels of skill.

…and that advice is pure bunk since they get massive benefits from implants right out of the gate. After all, they speed up your training time no matter what — in absolute as well as relative terms.