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[Serious Discussion] This game's community leaves much to be desired

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#561 - 2014-03-16 02:15:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Mandarine wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mandarine wrote:
Because playing games is meant to have fun together, instead of at one another´s expense


If that were true, all goames would be Cooperative games. Co-op games are where you are meant to have fun together, competative games always end with one person having fun "at another's expense".

When i play poker I'm not playing for your enjoyment, I'm playing for your money.


Believe it or not, in all games devoid of super serious stakes like money or world ranking in something important like chess, there is a tacit agreement between all sane players sharing basic common sense, to play nice and making sure everybody has fun. It´s very much emotionally cooperative, even if it´s tabletop warfare.
As someone who started out with tabletop gaming back in the 80's, there are always people who moan, whine and cry when they lose, they don't tend to get invited back because playing games with them is pointless, they'll always be the first to accuse others of underhanded shenanigans when things don't go their way.

Quote:
Now, there are always some players with issues, who revel in being disruptive and who envision all games as you and Jonah do, that is, zero-sum equations in which fun is always had at your opponent´s expense, Those people, in RL games, are not reinvited, because it´s boring, tedious and irritating to play with them.
Strangely enough, despite what you assume about me, I often get asked to play RL games with other people, probably because I'm not a sore loser.

You make a lot of baseless assumptions in your post, firstly I'm not a zero sum gamer and I don't believe Jenn is either, we both do what many see as carebear stuff, neither of us indulges in ship to ship PvP unless we have to. What we are is realists, we accept that we're playing a competitive game where anybody, at anytime is free to try and stop us doing what we want to, and we plan accordingly.

Quote:
In a game such as EvE, there is no way not to play with them or collectively choose to remove them from the game. That is why all the guys some people who enjoy spaceships, mmos and being disruptive, flock come to New Eden.
And nor should there be, if they play within the rules of the game, I fixed the latter part of your post btw, you're welcome.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Marsha Mallow
#562 - 2014-03-16 02:16:50 UTC
Mandarine wrote:
Believe it or not, in all games devoid of super serious stakes like money or world ranking in something important like chess, there is a tacit agreement between all sane players sharing basic common sense, to play nice and making sure everybody has fun. It´s very much emotionally cooperative, even if it´s tabletop warfare.

What like monopoly or chess? My cousins used to throw the board across the room and storm about when they noticed us slyly stealing money or removing pieces from the board when they weren't looking. You might be right about the sane thing though.

Mandarine wrote:
Now, there are always some players with issues, who revel in being disruptive and who envision all games as you and Jonah do, that is, zero-sum equations in which fun is always had at your opponent´s expense, Those people, in RL games, are not reinvited, because it´s boring, tedious and irritating to play with them.

That's odd, because ingame the most disruptive and obnoxious people tend to either have a well developed sense of humour or they are completely hammered and thus entertaining to play with.

Mandarine wrote:
In a game such as EvE, there is no way not to play with them or collectively choose to remove them from the game. That is why all the guys who enjoy spaceships, mmos and being disruptive, flock to New Eden.

Well, what the **** are you doing here then? You are clearly in the wrong ******* game. Do you get some sort of sadistic enjoyment out of sitting there telling us how naughty we are. Are we supposed to care?

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#563 - 2014-03-16 02:18:43 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:

OK so you wish to compare the fact that life doesn't have a terms of service that explicitly states you'll be competing. Cool, as you know I enjoy bringing in real life comparisons, so this one is on you for wanting to initiate it.

Considering that according to you, life and eve are similar in not stating it is mandatory to compete, then we also have to assume that instead of competing we can exist cooperatively.

If it's not clearly stated that one has to compete or cooperate, then we get to choose.
Yes you can choose to play or work cooperatively with others, what you can't do is expect others to play or work cooperatively with you. This is as true in real life as it is in Eve.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#564 - 2014-03-16 02:25:13 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:

OK so you wish to compare the fact that life doesn't have a terms of service that explicitly states you'll be competing. Cool, as you know I enjoy bringing in real life comparisons, so this one is on you for wanting to initiate it.

Considering that according to you, life and eve are similar in not stating it is mandatory to compete, then we also have to assume that instead of competing we can exist cooperatively.

If it's not clearly stated that one has to compete or cooperate, then we get to choose.
Yes you can choose to play or work cooperatively with others, what you can't do is expect others to play or work cooperatively with you. This is as true in real life as it is in Eve.


Exactly, so since we're both making our choices, we get to choose how we react and consider those choices.

Considering there is no overarching mandate demanding that we play a certain way, we get to judge how others are based on their actions.

This is as true in EvE as it is in Real Life.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#565 - 2014-03-16 02:28:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Divine Entervention wrote:

Exactly, so since we're both making our choices, we get to choose how we react and consider those choices.

Considering there is no overarching mandate demanding that we play a certain way, we get to judge how others are based on their actions.

This is as true in EvE as it is in Real Life.
Yes we're both making choices, no you don't get to judge others in real life because of the choices they make in a computer game, because a computer game is not real life.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#566 - 2014-03-16 02:28:31 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
How could EVE ever be a cooperative game anyway without competition?
Cooperation against what? Sansha's Nation? Sure...


So you answered your own question. It's nice to see you understand.

+1
I don't think he means what you think he means

Even cooperating against Sanshas Nation in an incursion involves competition, such as who can gain the most LP, who can clear sites fastest etc.


It doesn't matter what his intention of saying it is, to insult me, by answering his own question he proves that it's possible that everyone cooperate with each other to accomplish objectives other than competition via blowing each others ships up.

No, my point was whatever cooperative gameplay you might try to do wouldn't be purely cooperative for long.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#567 - 2014-03-16 02:32:21 UTC
I'm willing to set aside our differences and work cooperatively with Divine Entervention to start a titan BPO copying operation. We can call it Titans4Everyone.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#568 - 2014-03-16 02:34:24 UTC
Erotica 1 wrote:
I'm willing to set aside our differences and work cooperatively with Divine Entervention to start a titan BPO copying operation. We can call it Titans4Everyone.
Bad Bobby is that you?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#569 - 2014-03-16 02:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Jonah EasyToBeatstein wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:

Exactly, so since we're both making our choices, we get to choose how we react and consider those choices.

Considering there is no overarching mandate demanding that we play a certain way, we get to judge how others are based on their actions.

This is as true in EvE as it is in Real Life.
Yes we're both making choices, no you don't get to judge others in real life because of the choices they make in a computer game, because a computer game is not real life.


Yes I do. You've already stated that EvE is similar to real life in the regards that they're both governed by the choices of how we wish to play. Because we're the individuals choosing to perform the action within the game within real life, we get to judge the person who makes those choices by the overarching morality of real life context because of the stated similarity you've already established exists.

Where is it stated in the EULA or on any official website that I cannot consider someone who acts like a bad person as a bad person?

You have your opinion, and you're allowed to have it. But just like you're allowed to consider my opinion wrong, I'm allowed to consider yours wrong and judge you just like you judge me.
Taal Khurin
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#570 - 2014-03-16 02:40:22 UTC
I agree that some peeps take things too far, but i personally haven't really ever encountered any true malevolence since i have been playing, lots of complete tools yes, but nothing serious.
Mandarine
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#571 - 2014-03-16 02:42:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mandarine
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Yes we're both making choices, no you don't get to judge others in real life because of the choices they make in a computer game, because a computer game is not real life.


But those people are not playing a computer game. They don´t play pretend being a pod pilot, they just use meta and ingame cheese in a way to cause emotional harm to people. They enjoy the RL rage of their victims much more than anything. They develop glee by witnessing their own selves (i:e. not their character) being the cause of the RL distress of some unknown Joe, which they have created by using a video game as a platform.


Marsha Mallow wrote:

Well, what the **** are you doing here then? You are clearly in the wrong ******* game. Do you get some sort of sadistic enjoyment out of sitting there telling us how naughty we are. Are we supposed to care?


Why do you answer me continuously, if you don´t care?

Moreover, I´m supposed to be on some kind of self-proclaimed moral high ground, while you are a moral pragmatist and think that ethics depend on context. So, why does my delusional moral self-aggrandizement annoy you, if you postulate that morals are irrelevant?

Oh I see, you think that ingame actions and RL behavior are de-coupled. To which I´ll just ask you to read my answer to Jonah above.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#572 - 2014-03-16 02:44:15 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
How did a wimpering little **** like OP get over 60 likes on his post within 48 hours?
So the assholes are the reason more happy special snowflakes who want to carefully control every single aspect of their gameplay experience don't play EVE?

GOOD.
Go play another game.

Kalrus, Jenn and Trippia decided to post.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#573 - 2014-03-16 02:45:27 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:

Yes I do. You've already stated that EvE is similar to real life in the regards that they're both governed by the choices of how we wish to play. Because we're the individuals choosing to perform the action within the game within real life,
No, there is a very real distinction between actions within a game and actions in real life. Shooting people in a game where the norm is to shoot people is not the same as shooting people in real life where doing so is considered, with notable exceptions, as a crime.

Quote:
we get to judge the person who makes those choices by the overarching morality of real life context because of the stated similarity you've already established exists.
You really do believe in some utter bollocks, the over reaching morality of real life does not apply in a game where that overreaching morality is not the norm.

Quote:
Where is it stated in the EULA or on any official website that I cannot consider someone who acts like a bad person as a bad person?
You can, as long as you keep it in the context of the game, the problem is that you're not keeping it in that context, you're taking your judgement and allowing it to colour your real life view of people.

Quote:
You have your opinion, and you're allowed to have it. But just like you're allowed to consider my opinion wrong, I'm allowed to consider yours wrong and judge you just like you judge me.
My opinion doesn't involve painting people as "bad" because of their actions in a game, which very specifically is not real life.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

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Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#574 - 2014-03-16 02:46:23 UTC
I don't know about you guys, but I'm going to login to the actual game in a few minutes after a quick smoke and see what interesting things happen tonight.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.

Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#575 - 2014-03-16 02:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:

Yes I do. You've already stated that EvE is similar to real life in the regards that they're both governed by the choices of how we wish to play. Because we're the individuals choosing to perform the action within the game within real life,
No, there is a very real distinction between actions within a game and actions in real life. Shooting people in a game where the norm is to shoot people is not the same as shooting people in real life where doing so is considered, with notable exceptions, as a crime.

Quote:
we get to judge the person who makes those choices by the overarching morality of real life context because of the stated similarity you've already established exists.
You really do believe in some utter bollocks, the over reaching morality of real life does not apply in a game where that overreaching morality is not the norm.

Quote:
Where is it stated in the EULA or on any official website that I cannot consider someone who acts like a bad person as a bad person?
You can, as long as you keep it in the context of the game, the problem is that you're not keeping it in that context, you're taking your judgement and allowing it to colour your real life view of people.

Quote:
You have your opinion, and you're allowed to have it. But just like you're allowed to consider my opinion wrong, I'm allowed to consider yours wrong and judge you just like you judge me.
My opinion doesn't involve painting people as "bad" because of their actions in a game, which very specifically is not real life.


The very real connection between the actions taking place in game is they're being enacted based on the choices of the person in real life. The person in real life making the choices is the connection. If you were not in game making those choices, then they wouldn't be existing within with world of EvE. You are making it happen of your own volition.

Right now, you are typing to me on the forums. Is it not you typing to me? Who is it then, that is conversing with me right now? Based on your actions within the confines of these forums, I'm able to label and judge you how I see fit according to my belief system which is rooted in reality. Because I know in reality, there's a human being choosing to sit at his computer and perform the action of conversing with me.

You are disconnected from yourself and your own actions if you fail to see that you are the cause of your own actions, in real life, in a game, on forums, driving in your car, watching tv, whatever. Within reality, which you are sitting pretending you're imaginary, you are you.

Nowhere in EvE's EULA does it state I'm not allowed to think of anyone how I wish. Though I do not, I'm allowed to think every CCP employee is stupid( I do not!!!!!!), but do they try to prevent me from doing so? No, only you are.

You state the result of my conclusion is that it emerges into my opinion of defining who is and who isn't a bad person. But the same side of that same coin is you've reached a conclusion that I believe in some "utter bollocks". Yet your arrival at your conclusion is some how more justified than mine and should hold more validity? Nope, because you fail to understand the connection between you and reality.

You're trying to oppress my ability to have an opinion different than yours.
And when you try to tell me you're not trying to oppress my ability to have an opinion, just my ability to speak it, I'll respond with, Why do you feel you get to judge who is allowed to speak their opinion and who can? Let me guess, whoever agrees with you can keep talking, but everyone who disagrees needs to shut up. . . Which would result in you being a controlling, delusional, narcissistic, psychopath. . . . Only if that's how you feel though.

So tell me again about my choice of having an opinion and speaking it?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#576 - 2014-03-16 02:52:58 UTC
Mandarine wrote:

But those people are not playing a computer game. They don´t play pretend being a pod pilot,
In what way is actively playing a computer game not playing a computer game?
Quote:
they just use meta and ingame cheese in a way to cause emotional harm to people. They enjoy the RL rage of their victims much more than anything. They develop glee by witnessing their own selves (i:e. not their character) being the cause of the RL distress of some unknown Joe, which they have created by using a video game as a platform.
Maybe if the unknown Joe didn't throw a childish tantrum every time something doesn't go his way, in a computer game, then people wouldn't try to harvest his anger and anguish.

It takes 2 to tango.

Quote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:

Well, what the **** are you doing here then? You are clearly in the wrong ******* game. Do you get some sort of sadistic enjoyment out of sitting there telling us how naughty we are. Are we supposed to care?


Why do you answer me continuously, if you don´t care?

Moreover, I´m supposed to be on some kind of self-proclaimed moral high ground, while you are a moral pragmatist and think that ethics depend on context. So, why does my delusional moral self-aggrandizement annoy you, if you postulate that morals are irrelevant?

Oh I see, you think that ingame actions and RL behavior are de-coupled. To which I´ll just ask you to read my answer to Jonah above.
Ummm in a healthy individual ingame and RL behaviour are decoupled. If they weren't I'd be wanting a selection of clones, a supercarrier sat in the garage next to my corpse collection and lasers that go pewpewpew.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Malrikk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#577 - 2014-03-16 02:56:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Malrikk
I have two friends that prefer an online MMO if the ability to PK or harass another player at will is present.

This got me thinking; why?
Questioning these two people I found various similarities in how they grew up, their beliefs, etc. Interestingly enough they were both weak kids that were picked on in their younger years, never had girlfriends, bullied, etc. Of course it goes even deeper than that, but I'm not here to give a lesson in psychiatry.

My only conclusion on my two friends is much like my take on your atypical law enforcement agent who desires control and power because of their childhood. That type of control and power is definitely allowable in Eve, so it really shouldn't be a shock that these types of players are the dominating population in the game.
Unfortunately it's a great reason to unsubscribe, as the old adage goes; if you hang around **** long enough you'll start to smell like **** yourself.
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#578 - 2014-03-16 02:58:52 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Lots of words


*puff, puff, pass

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#579 - 2014-03-16 03:00:56 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
How did a wimpering little **** like OP get over 60 likes on his post within 48 hours?
So the assholes are the reason more happy special snowflakes who want to carefully control every single aspect of their gameplay experience don't play EVE?

GOOD.
Go play another game.

Kalrus, Jenn and Trippia decided to post.


If you're going to give two of us nicknames, it's rather impolite to not give Jenn one also. Get with the program.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

ButtFungus
SOONWAFFE
#580 - 2014-03-16 03:05:23 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Trophies for participation, that's how.

Is this what you have in mind? Feel free to award as needed
Trophy