These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next page
 

War Decs: why I think they need a change
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Oswald Bolke
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-03-12 14:04:40 UTC
yep, that's right, they need to be fixed
why is this? Because I think the mechanic is more of a "license to gank" rather than it is combat between two corporations. As you will obviously point out "but OP is a member of that corp that must not be named and he's just complaining" that may very well be true, but being with my corp, and being deced' by everyone and their sister has given me a lot of insight to this mechanic and how it works. Here is what I would like to see (any or all of these changes)

1. No Gate Camping With Impunity
This is one of the things I think is really cheesy about how this works. War decs allow any party just to freely camp any gate they want , no questions asked. I think this is wrong. It cuts free movement drastically for the unfortunate corp who can be war deced' any time someone with deep pockets feels like. I'm okay with faction police not showing up in belts in high sec, or no lowered sec status for attacks on belts etc. But I feel that anywhere with station guns should still shoot away at you for causing a fight on a structure, and that gate camping with a War Dec is again, not I feel in the spirit of things. With no impunity on the gates, all but dedicated fleets that can survive guns and faction police in high sec will be able to block movement, so the war deced' corp is free to leave, yielding the space that the belligerent party obviously wants Roll

2.Make War Decing' Payout For The Non Belligerent Corp
Yep, that's right. How about some of that money they spend goes into the victims coffers. This levels the playing field. The narrative goes like this: "oh, so you want to mess with X group of people...okay, so were gonna take this cash, hand it to them, and let them know you are coming...good luck!" I think the disadvantage has to be to the person who starts the fight. This would also allow smaller corps to hire people to defend them or buy shiny ships etc. to throw into the mix (rather than chicken out and drop corp for a week).

3.Disadvantages Have To Go To The Belligerent Party
I say this because I think this specific game mechanic has become in many cases not about declaring war for minerals, space etc. but purely for padding killboards. In my mind, ideas like these two I threw out would make a player think more about taking this action rather than just do it to get some cheap kills for bragging rights by camping movement points.
Seliah
Red Cloud Vigil
#2 - 2014-03-12 14:31:18 UTC
Or, alternatively, you could grow a pair and defend yourself, hire someone to do it for you, or be smart enough to avoid getting caught.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#3 - 2014-03-12 15:12:51 UTC
I think the corp that shall not be named can manage to defend themselves alright, its not like they dont have the manpower.

While I dont agree with getting paid to be decced, I do agree with guns and faction police responding to hostility on stations, gates, and any similarly guarded structures. You might could bribe CONCORD to look the other way for a minute where no one can see, like mission pockets and asteroid belts, but attacking in olain sigbt of god and everybody should be something else.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#4 - 2014-03-12 16:59:33 UTC
although in many ways war decs do behave as though concord has been paid off, its not actually what happens. war decs allow corps to attack eachother without NPC repercussion. gates should not attack ppl in a war dec unless they do something criminal. wardecs themselves are not criminal.

the money it costs for war deccing would hardly buy a single shiny ship...let alone let u equip ur fleet with them. i dnt think it would work, nor do i see any reason to give the defenders any money. u also have 24 hours to know that they are coming, not sure how money is going to give an advanced warning.

players can war dec for any reason they like, and they can reach that objective through any ingame method they like, and u can resist them any way u like, its the sandbox. How do u know they havent war decced u to restrict ur movements? hence the camping of important gates. Instead, why not use alternative routes to move things? Or make sure ur always moving in a big fleet for safety.

Yes wardeccers do have disadvantages where they are paying for the war and u can bring in as many allies as u like. They area as exposed to u and ur allies as u are to them. The ultimate purpose of eve is to get u to defend urself, rather than relying on NPC mechanics to make things easy for u.

quick look at the killboard suggests to me lots of u die because ur flying alone. but when u get together the bad guys lose ships. seriously, just get together with ur corp and noob blob to hilarious result.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#5 - 2014-03-12 17:05:23 UTC
There is a point to be made about gates and stations though.

Having guns and just faction police respond would cut the station games.

I know some of the pvp folks dont like to even remember that there is such a thing as the actual game itself... But no government would allow the kind of disruption a war between corporations would cause around valuable assets like gates or stations unless there was no way to prevent it... And they would at least try.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-03-12 17:34:59 UTC
Easy solution..

QUIT JOINING CORPS RAN "for noobs by noobs", anyone CEO who has not lived for at elast 6-months each in each of the reasons has no business trying to lead people in a corp. corp eladership should be handled by longterm, experienced players, who have the knowledge to guide new players into earning their isk, learning to fit ships, and most importantly DEFEND THEMSELVES. A corp led by an older player is MUCH more likely to have organized fleets should a wardec come, rather than the "lul disband" or "lul never undock and ***** about it on the forums" that nigh every highsec corp does.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#7 - 2014-03-12 17:40:55 UTC

Your complaints aren't pragmatic.

Why does Corp A wardec Corp B:

To legally attack their assets in lowsec and highsec.
To hinder their activities in highsec.

Your suggestions prohibit this by forcing the attacker to fight away from stations and gates, which is where 90% of fights happen. You can't make these "safeish" areas without essentially nerfing wardecs into the ground.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#8 - 2014-03-12 18:12:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Mike Voidstar wrote:
There is a point to be made about gates and stations though.

Having guns and just faction police respond would cut the station games.

I know some of the pvp folks dont like to even remember that there is such a thing as the actual game itself... But no government would allow the kind of disruption a war between corporations would cause around valuable assets like gates or stations unless there was no way to prevent it... And they would at least try.


but what disruption is there in an eve war dec? there is no collateral damage significant or direct enough to be applicable to the war. no passer-bys are casualties, no NPC assets are damaged. if they were, CONCORD, faction police and station guns would very much intervene as u describe.

station games can be quite uninteresting i know. but forcing the campers away from the stations and gates that their targets can use devalues the war dec mechanic immensely. If u cannot camp stations and gates, what stops war targets moving pretty much freely through high sec? Station games will always be a thing until u can destroy the stations.

edit- well either that or start bubbling and cyno'ing war targets in hi-sec.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2014-03-12 22:53:02 UTC
But surely all of those options make wardecs essentially pointless for anyone who isn't in RvB?

Nice stealth 'remove wardecs' thread.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#10 - 2014-03-13 15:26:25 UTC
Oswald Bolke wrote:
yep, that's right, they need to be fixed
...
1. No Gate Camping With Impunity
...
2.Make War Decing' Payout For The Non Belligerent Corp
Yep, that's right. How about some of that money they spend goes into the victims coffers. This levels the playing field. The narrative goes like this: "oh, so you want to mess with X group of people...okay, so were gonna take this cash, hand it to them, and let them know you are coming...good luck!" I think the disadvantage has to be to the person who starts the fight. This would also allow smaller corps to hire people to defend them or buy shiny ships etc. to throw into the mix (rather than chicken out and drop corp for a week).

3.Disadvantages Have To Go To The Belligerent Party
I say this because I think this specific game mechanic has become in many cases not about declaring war for minerals, space etc. but purely for padding killboards. In my mind, ideas like these two I threw out would make a player think more about taking this action rather than just do it to get some cheap kills for bragging rights by camping movement points.


1: Heresy against HTFU!

2: WIth a tweak this is a good idea, provided that wardec fees paid by the aggressor go into a bucket claimable by the defender, but only based on agressor ship/asset values killed by the defender. This mechanic should incentivize a defender to come out and fight, not be a pansy or mechanism to nerf wardecs further than they already have.

3: The aggressor already has disadvantages, many recently implemented because of heretical mewling like yours. You simply know not of what you speak foul heretic.

In summary you are in violation of EvE's core HTFU doctrine and your heresy must now cause the death of innocent carebears as a result. YOU are now causing these senseless deaths Oswald, I am just the instrument of Gods will...

For each act of heresy, another dead innocent carebear. So let it be written, so let it be done.

F

Would you like to know more?
scimichar
Deep Hole Explorers of New Eden
#11 - 2014-03-13 15:29:12 UTC
You joined a PVP corp for newbies and you're complaining about PVP....OK!
Sara Careless
TRI Assault
#12 - 2014-03-13 15:55:54 UTC
ways yo pvp explained by analogy

ganking:
taking your car driving it on the sidewalk to hit someone and hope whats on there corpse covers you getting a new car.

Wardecking:
walking into a school and picking on the little guy and teasing him to fight back when you know he cant for your enjoyment.

Lowsec:
walking into the ghetto at night you asked for it

Null sec
walking into a warzone you exspect to be shot at possibly by your own guys too.

worm hole:
kinda like Louisiana after hurricane katrina every man for himself

ganking is not fighting by its very nature as the target has no time to react and generally is just some nobody whos being shot by triggerhappy idiots.

wardecking is an important but broken mechanic there should be some changes such as
-grace period should be extended to a week so a corporation has time to prepare for war.
-cost should be based per member at a ratio compared to other corp if you have a hundred people they have 10 it costs you a billion a week for the war but if they have 100 and you have 10 it costs you 10 million a week.
-gates and stations within 100km are safe areas and you cant engage there or gate guns/station guns will shoot you but concord wont respond.
-members are free to leave during a war at any time.

remember you cant force someone to go by your play style if you spend a billion to wardec a ten man corp then they all quit thats call risk vs reward.
also highsec is not null sec a decent sp pilot in some avereage null space can easily net in 30 mill per hour with low risk not including specials spawns. if people want to stay in highsec let them.
Leoric Firesword
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-03-13 16:00:34 UTC
wardecs are fine, nothing to see here
Helia Tranquilis
Confused Bunnies Inc
#14 - 2014-03-13 16:06:17 UTC
Seliah wrote:
Or, alternatively, you could grow a pair and defend yourself, hire someone to do it for you, or be smart enough to avoid getting caught.
Hilariously enough, every time one grows a pair and defends themselves, the opposing party stays docked.

Hiring someone to fight your battles for you works great on paper, but take for example a situation where you are decced by mercs. Good luck finding a merc corp that actually fights other mercs. They might actually lose ships and nobody wants that.

Avoid getting caught practically means do not undock at all. There goes the spirit of HTFU again.

9 times out of 10 deccing party is far superior to the target and will always succeed in pissing to your sandbox for as long as they see fit. That is the spirit of wardecs.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#15 - 2014-03-13 16:59:53 UTC
Helia Tranquilis wrote:
Seliah wrote:
Or, alternatively, you could grow a pair and defend yourself, hire someone to do it for you, or be smart enough to avoid getting caught.
Hilariously enough, every time one grows a pair and defends themselves, the opposing party stays docked.

Hiring someone to fight your battles for you works great on paper, but take for example a situation where you are decced by mercs. Good luck finding a merc corp that actually fights other mercs. They might actually lose ships and nobody wants that.

Avoid getting caught practically means do not undock at all. There goes the spirit of HTFU again.

9 times out of 10 deccing party is far superior to the target and will always succeed in pissing to your sandbox for as long as they see fit. That is the spirit of wardecs.

Firstly, the dichotomy of your tears being delicious while sadly having to increment my Kill-It-Forward queue by +1 for your heresy leaves me with mixed emotions...

Secondly, there are very capable mercenary corporations that routinely defend besieged carebear corps from other mercs, you are just simply out to lunch on your assertions to the contrary.

Your combined heresy and misinformation is in truly bad taste. Let the death of another innocent in your stead bring you clarity.

Insha'Allah.

Would you like to know more?
Oswald Bolke
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2014-03-13 17:10:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Oswald Bolke
Helia Tranquilis wrote:
Seliah wrote:
Or, alternatively, you could grow a pair and defend yourself, hire someone to do it for you, or be smart enough to avoid getting caught.
Hilariously enough, every time one grows a pair and defends themselves, the opposing party stays docked.

Hiring someone to fight your battles for you works great on paper, but take for example a situation where you are decced by mercs. Good luck finding a merc corp that actually fights other mercs. They might actually lose ships and nobody wants that.

Avoid getting caught practically means do not undock at all. There goes the spirit of HTFU again.

9 times out of 10 deccing party is far superior to the target and will always succeed in pissing to your sandbox for as long as they see fit. That is the spirit of wardecs.


good points and yeah, that's kinda what I'm getting at. Again all the people who say HTFU are the ones who wardec, but when faced with an actual fair fight, dock up. Seen it a million billion times.

you know:

"oh hey guys war target Tengu on undock" [forms large fleet] "oh wait no, he docked"

I suggested these things because I don't mind wardecs per say, and I know how to avoid them... I just wan't to get rid of the cheesy factor of war decs and make them actually about two parties fighting rather than 9 times out of 10 one party just trying to pick on each other for cheap kills.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#17 - 2014-03-13 17:42:42 UTC
I guess my point is that high sec should remain high sec, even under a legal wardec.

We have lots of EVE that is a free fire zone. High sec is supposed to limit that. The cost of a wardec is not negligible for some, but certainly it is for the majority for the grief minded abusers of the mechanic. A wardec should not turn high sec into lowsec without capitals.

The rules of engagement should still be limited, and keeping fights off gates and structures, or at least raising the bar significanly to do it there, seems like a good, logical limit without nerfing it to nothing.
Oswald Bolke
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2014-03-14 18:25:16 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
I guess my point is that high sec should remain high sec, even under a legal wardec.

We have lots of EVE that is a free fire zone. High sec is supposed to limit that. The cost of a wardec is not negligible for some, but certainly it is for the majority for the grief minded abusers of the mechanic. A wardec should not turn high sec into lowsec without capitals.

The rules of engagement should still be limited, and keeping fights off gates and structures, or at least raising the bar significanly to do it there, seems like a good, logical limit without nerfing it to nothing.


Yeah, I mean Obviously CCP would have to be careful about not going too far and what not, but I think it needs a re-balance to make it less easy to abuse for killboard padding
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#19 - 2014-03-14 21:59:30 UTC
why shouldnt war decs fight on gates or stations?

because they restrict ur movement? thats the point. if u need to move that badly, get in a shuttle and use insta-undocks. ur invincible.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#20 - 2014-03-15 06:45:31 UTC
Posting to confirm that I do not have a sister, and so she can not have wardecced OP.

Additionally, OP seems to not actually have any ideas and just wants generic nerfing and more benefits handed to the defenders.

What if my small corp decided it was time to take on a bigger corp with more resources? OP would have me put at even more of a disadvantage in order to "level" his Holy Playing Field. Eve, however, is not about leveling or playing fields or playing fair or playing with your attacker's sister. EVE is about advantages, disadvantages, money, industry, power and control. Not necessarily in that order.

If OP has trouble with wardecs, he should probably go to nullsec or lowsec where nobody even bothers with them.
123Next page