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Rifter changes, Viable solo PvP ship again?

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Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#41 - 2014-03-13 17:12:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Hrett wrote:
Some good points



Try this fit;

[Atron, PVP Kite]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script

150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S
[empty high slot]

Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-03-13 17:22:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
Gregor Parud wrote:
Hrett wrote:
Some good points



Try this fit;

[Atron, PVP Kite]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script

150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S
[empty high slot]

Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I


That is actually exactly my fit. Sometimes I use a DCU instead of magstab. Edit: I think I might use a damage rig instead of the polycarbon. Dont have it handy. If you see a ship named "Atronishing" flying around, thats me. ;)

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
The Lobsters
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2014-03-13 17:33:01 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
your Rifter will lose each and every time to a well flown kite/TD Atron.


Assuming the rifter pilot doesn't know what he's doing, I agree.Big smile

That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#44 - 2014-03-13 18:59:59 UTC
The Lobsters wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
your Rifter will lose each and every time to a well flown kite/TD Atron.


Assuming the rifter pilot doesn't know what he's doing, I agree.Big smile


You have twice the HP, less than 1/3rd of the dps at those range and lack the speed/agility to control the fight. So no, given equal situations in regards to piloting, SP, implants and links you won't win.
The Lobsters
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2014-03-13 19:14:48 UTC  |  Edited by: The Lobsters
Gregor Parud wrote:
The Lobsters wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
your Rifter will lose each and every time to a well flown kite/TD Atron.


Assuming the rifter pilot doesn't know what he's doing, I agree.Big smile


You have twice the HP, less than 1/3rd of the dps at those range and lack the speed/agility to control the fight. So no, given equal situations in regards to piloting, SP, implants and links you won't win.


PWYM or STFU


As it happens I'd have twice the ehp, 2/3rds the dps with titanium, track better and only be 850m/s slower, which in a kitey dog fight is enough to pilot close or break tackle. If you know what you're doing. I'd also be shooting kinetic and explosive into the atron's untanked resist holes. I'm not saying it would be an easy fight, it would in fact be a good fight.

Put the eft down mate.

Ed. BTW on that Atron fit posted, if you drop down to meta 4 guns, swap one of the overclocks for a locus and shoot uranium you get the same range and dps with an extra 25 seconds overheat. Spring for a couple of genolutions and you can ditch the other overclock and add a collision for another 10 dps. I too have flown the Railtron. I too have played eft.


Anyway

Taoist Dragon wrote:
Actually I can't be bothered to forum scrap with an EFT warrior alt any more.

Have fun o7


Bye thread, see you on battleclinic bro

o7

That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#46 - 2014-03-13 20:08:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
The Lobsters wrote:
As it happens I'd have twice the ehp, 2/3rds the dps with titanium, track better and only be 850m/s slower, which in a kitey dog fight is enough to pilot close or break tackle. If you know what you're doing. I'd also be shooting kinetic and explosive into the atron's untanked resist holes. I'm not saying it would be an easy fight, it would in fact be a good fight.

Put the eft down mate.


I'm using your fit from your last Rifter loss.

There is no resist hole on that Atron as it's not tanked, has just about equal shield and armor while the rest is hull. Damage type wise you'd be better off using EMP or PP, not fusion or Titanium. Atron EHP towards Titanium is 1636, your EHP towards Thorium is 3557. so you have 2.17 the amount.

Now we look at the dps and apply the Atron's TD with range script to your Rifter and given that you need to get closer in we'll assume 90dps from the Atron so you need to average 90/2.17=41 dps. This happens at 16.4km so you have to AVERAGE that range, if you can't then you lose. Every second you spend outside that range you have to make up for within that range and since the Atron is more agile and faster than you this simply won't happen.

Given same skills, implants, links and piloting you won't win.




On the Atron fit, that actually makes really good sense. It doesn't change the outcome of this encounter (because dps numbers are so similar) but the overheating is a very good point.
IP Freeely
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-03-14 02:06:20 UTC
I'm putting this in EFT (all skills to 5) and coming up a bit over on power and not quite that fast. Is this with implants? I'm curious as I'm new and this is an intriguing fit.

Cheers.

Dato Koppla wrote:


He said without links, and for reference:

[Slasher, PvP Anti-Inty]

Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 50

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Small Projectile Burst Aerator I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I

6.1km/s overheated
This fit can easily run down all the other T1 long point kiters and demolish them before they can kill you, especially things like the Executioner and Atron because they will usually be using beams/rails so you can get under their guns easily, Condors not so much but those tend to be paper tanked.

but yeah, the Rifter is definitely in a sad spot and personally I haven't flown one for ages so I don't really know how it performs, but I was just confirming that the Slasher is pretty amazing.
Ayeshah Volfield
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2014-03-14 02:22:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayeshah Volfield
IP Freeely wrote:
I'm putting this in EFT (all skills to 5) and coming up a bit over on power and not quite that fast. Is this with implants? I'm curious as I'm new and this is an intriguing fit.

Cheers.


Overheat the MWD, should read 6117 m/s. It does go a bit over the PG so either buy a cheap 3% PG implant or use 125mm guns instead.

EVE is what happens when the rule of law does not apply and Darwinism is allowed to run freely.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#49 - 2014-03-14 02:55:54 UTC
Ayeshah Volfield wrote:
IP Freeely wrote:
I'm putting this in EFT (all skills to 5) and coming up a bit over on power and not quite that fast. Is this with implants? I'm curious as I'm new and this is an intriguing fit.

Cheers.


Overheat the MWD, should read 6117 m/s. It does go a bit over the PG so either buy a cheap 3% PG implant or use 125mm guns instead.


Yeah it's a little over on PG, I didn't notice at first because I had genolution implants in which are cheap and really useful. It's definitely a good little ship though, with some good use of the neut and close orbiting you can also win against brawlers but it's quite iffy especially if the brawler is AB fit cause they'd likely break your tank before you can kill them.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#50 - 2014-03-14 04:31:52 UTC
Atron and Condor fits are so well known at this point in time I don't know why people fight them if they are not in a specific counter. (A Kestrel can overheat to 136 DPS with a 781 alpha all the way out to 63 km. It can also fit an MSE at the same time and does hilarious things to most kiters)

Armor Rifters are the way to go. You can fit 200s and a rocket launcher, AB or MWD, SAAR or 200mm plate. It works well in packs with the plate and some logi support. 150ish DPS. The shield fits run into both power problems and CPU issues and as a result don't bring that much more range or DPS to the table.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#51 - 2014-03-14 11:50:02 UTC
Of course, but that has no place in a ship balancing discussion.
The Lobsters
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2014-03-14 11:57:25 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Of course, but that has no place in a ship balancing discussion.



Say's the form alt who's too embarrassed about his killboard to post with his main. The irony.

That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim.
The Lobsters
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2014-03-14 12:16:19 UTC
Roll

Whatever luv, the thread's all yours. x imma gonna shoot me some crake.

That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#54 - 2014-03-14 12:19:53 UTC
I don't know what's the point of this discussion. The meta is pretty straightforward now :
kiting > AB scram kite > MWD brawling > kiting

The Rifter make a very good MWD brawling frigate because of its speed and utility high. It should make a good kiter,because it's fast enough and arties have the alpha to compensate for their lower dps (it's more of the opposite IMO, low dps compensate for alpha).

And the change will push its scram kiting ability to a rather good level I think. The falloff will noticeably increase its range in all fit, and hence its dps.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#55 - 2014-03-14 13:05:15 UTC
There is nothing wrong with the Rifter's bonuses, slot layout, or speed and agility. The problem with the ship lies with it's fitting grid. It base PG of 38 is only superior to the Breacher and Kestrel which each have a 35 PG (and use missiles) and the Tristan at 30 (drone boat and only 9 slots). It's CPU at 125 is the lowest of any attack or combat frigate. What that means is that when you try to shield tank the Rifter - or heaven forbid fit it with arties, you usually have both PG and CPU issues.
Charlie Firpol
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2014-03-14 13:31:33 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:

If you remove player quality from the equation an attack frig doesn't really do too well in the first place and the Rifter in particular was below par and still is below par.


I see where you are coming from, but for ship balancing you shouldn´t try to talk about "perfectly flown ship" against "perfectly flown ship". In a frig fight, the winndows of opportunity for things like slingshotting, breaking disruptor range and getting out, etc are sooooooo small, most of the time slower than the 1 sec server ticks, that you will basically never get a perfect fight.

So, if you try to argue against people that don´t do much else than pvping solo or in small gangs and that have a ton of hands-on experience, then you better bring some better arguments than "but my EFT sais so".

The Butcher of Black Rise - eve-radio.com
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#57 - 2014-03-14 13:54:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Charlie Firpol wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

If you remove player quality from the equation an attack frig doesn't really do too well in the first place and the Rifter in particular was below par and still is below par.


I see where you are coming from, but for ship balancing you shouldn´t try to talk about "perfectly flown ship" against "perfectly flown ship". In a frig fight, the winndows of opportunity for things like slingshotting, breaking disruptor range and getting out, etc are sooooooo small, most of the time slower than the 1 sec server ticks, that you will basically never get a perfect fight.

So, if you try to argue against people that don´t do much else than pvping solo or in small gangs and that have a ton of hands-on experience, then you better bring some better arguments than "but my EFT sais so".


You're assuming that because I stick to theory and stats I, thus, don't know how it works "in reality". I do, I just choose to remove any such variables from the equation when we're talking about ship balancing because allowing such variables is a slippery slope possibly ending in personal bias, kinda like the "I like Rifters, they're awesome so stfu" responses.

Would the thread be about "how to fly this Rifter" or "how to make it work" then yes, we'll be talking about little tricks, how to optimise your sling shotting etc but we're not; we're talking about if ship A is on par with ship B and as such you have to look at them as "clean" as possible, focussing on stats and numbers.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#58 - 2014-03-14 13:57:06 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the Rifter's bonuses, slot layout, or speed and agility. The problem with the ship lies with it's fitting grid. It base PG of 38 is only superior to the Breacher and Kestrel which each have a 35 PG (and use missiles) and the Tristan at 30 (drone boat and only 9 slots). It's CPU at 125 is the lowest of any attack or combat frigate. What that means is that when you try to shield tank the Rifter - or heaven forbid fit it with arties, you usually have both PG and CPU issues.


I still think it would be solved if arty as a whole would get like 10% more dps (but removing some alpha to keep it in check), becaus it would not only solve the Rifter's problems but also the slasher's and other ships.
Charlie Firpol
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2014-03-14 14:13:27 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:

Would the thread be about "how to fly this Rifter" or "how to make it work" then yes, we'll be talking about little tricks, how to optimise your sling shotting etc but we're not; we're talking about if ship A is on par with ship B and as such you have to look at them as "clean" as possible, focussing on stats and numbers.


If you would have to balance for a clean environment, you would be right. Fights in this game are everything but clean though.

The Butcher of Black Rise - eve-radio.com
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#60 - 2014-03-14 14:15:33 UTC
In this thread:

People complaining about a T1 frigate not being a solo-pwn-mobile in every scenario.

Rifter was fine back then, Rifter was still fine after Frigate Rebalance, and i'll just say the new Rifter is also fine.
It certainly has strengths, and in every fit it certainly has weaknesses.
Key to success is knowing your own strengths and weaknesses, aswell as those of your enemy.
One of the Rifter's big strenghtes is that almost everybody thinks it's **** nowadays.
Every damn Slasher will happily engage you in it's standard Web/Scram/TD setup, and every damn Slasher that is fit that way can be beaten up by a Rifter with relative ease, or at least could back then. Not sure how it's now with the tracking bonus gone, but that changes it's flavor, opens new targets.

The Rifter can, like a Firetail for example, basically do anything.
Use this strength.
Same guy, same ship, different fits, and the Condor that just saw you running away is suddenly getting stomped by it.

It's like with everything else: Know what you can take, kill it, stay away from everything else.