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Dilemma posed through BNI and EVE-UNI

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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#101 - 2014-03-13 18:00:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Gabriel Z wrote:
[EUNI's] problem at the time was simply that they had too many engagement rules and too many operational rules. They were good rules for any corp that wants to survive in EVE.

"Too many rules" sounds about right. They are not good rules for corps that want to survive in Eve. To survive in Eve you have to be flexible, knowledgeable, and take risks. EUNI does none of those things. They instead have a giant rote Code of Hammurabi dictating everything you can and can't do. It turns most of their graduates (at least, from what I've met/seen) into subservient pawns ready to lick an opportunistic CEO's/FC's boots, to be saved from having to take a chance or making an informed decision. Yes, it produces "good" Eve players -- types who know their place, be it in hisec in their level 4 mission or mining barge, or in nullsec in their anomaly or "just push F1" fleet battleship. I am yet to meet an enterprising adventurous EUNI graduate who didn't have to be re-educated or "fixed" first to not be afraid to take advantage of Eve to the fullest.

BNI is far better at that, even if (or, especially since) they don't emphasize "not dying" or "being safe" over "having fun".

Gabriel Z wrote:
I prefer BNI for lots of reasons, but EUNI had two things BNI doesn't: better information resources and better instruction.

Emphasis mine. That is actually a part of EUNI I appreciate. Whoever manages/writes their wiki knows their stuff.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2014-03-14 07:25:08 UTC
Gabriel Z wrote:
Stuff


Let me quote their CEO when we dec'd them several years ago:

"Because you dec'd us without asking first, we will field enough Blackbirds to blot out the sun."

Of course, EUNI didn't bring a fight once, and when we went to their home system, they all hid. A solid two-hundred people hid from a ten-man gang of battlecruisers because they couldn't find the "proper FC".

And when we engaged their tower in whatever-the-system was, there was an immediate petition because we were griefing them, according to one of their directors.

Then there was the time when one could use the Dec Shield mechanic, which EUNI used to great effect in order to hide from actual fights. Raise the price high enough and no one would want to fight you. Or Kelduum's infamous quote about people should only be allowed to dec EUNI if EUNI wants them to.

I could go on and on, but Kelduum's and EUNI's reputation precedes them.

Those who can, do; those who can't, teach. That is the motto of any operator in the real world, and it holds true far more than people realize. EUNI prefers fights that are scripted; BNI will go out and pull the tail of the dragon without any regard for losses.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Loko Crackhead
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2014-03-14 10:12:36 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:
Gabriel Z wrote:
Stuff


Let me quote their CEO when we dec'd them several years ago:

"Because you dec'd us without asking first, we will field enough Blackbirds to blot out the sun."

Of course, EUNI didn't bring a fight once, and when we went to their home system, they all hid. A solid two-hundred people hid from a ten-man gang of battlecruisers because they couldn't find the "proper FC".

And when we engaged their tower in whatever-the-system was, there was an immediate petition because we were griefing them, according to one of their directors.

Then there was the time when one could use the Dec Shield mechanic, which EUNI used to great effect in order to hide from actual fights. Raise the price high enough and no one would want to fight you. Or Kelduum's infamous quote about people should only be allowed to dec EUNI if EUNI wants them to.

I could go on and on, but Kelduum's and EUNI's reputation precedes them.

Those who can, do; those who can't, teach. That is the motto of any operator in the real world, and it holds true far more than people realize. EUNI prefers fights that are scripted; BNI will go out and pull the tail of the dragon without any regard for losses.


E-UNI veterans (didn't say directors) are mostly alts of people that do community service on their own game time. Trashing them that they didn't bring a fight to accommodate some high-sec war-deccers is puerile. If you check the forums you'll see that a lot of new players are complaining about high-sec gankers and scammers and ninja looters and so on. EUNI does its best to shield the noobs from such people and while that might seem restrictive one can always leave the corp and find some corporation with a more aggressive approach like BNI.
"Those who can, do; those who can't, teach." tell this cheap piece of wisdom to the BUD/s seal instructors.

Petrus , EVE to the fullest is opinion based assertion, fullest may mean different things to different people.
Dominic karin
Versatility Production Corporation' LLC
#104 - 2014-03-14 10:28:16 UTC
You are taking offense when there is no reason to.
Every new player has a use in a community, just not EVERY community. If you think that as a new player coming into the game on day one that you should be as useful or as welcome in all the same places as the likes of 6-8 year old vets it's just not the case and I challenge you to find a serious MMO (or any game for that matter) that would rank you such on walking in the door.

Eve is an especially complicated game with countless mechanics each with their own nuances and tactics to master. High level corps that specialize in a certain thing don't want to train a new player on how to do that thing a lot of the time, however a lot of the time high level specialized corps WILL train new players.

When people say 'Go join BNI, or go join Eve-Uni' they are not pushing you aside, they are directing you to the best known and well rounded sources to learn the game from. BNI specializes in PVP and Eve-Uni does just about everything which one you join if any at all just depends on your preferences.

In any case despite what you say you have already joined Against ALL Anomalies which is neither BNI or Eve-UNI and is relatively well known so I don't really get what your on about.
Gabriel Z
Krabulous
#105 - 2014-03-14 21:14:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Z
Anya Klibor wrote:
Those who can, do; those who can't, teach. That is the motto of any operator in the real world, and it holds true far more than people realize.

Professor Hawking would like a word with you.
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#106 - 2014-03-14 21:33:58 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
As a new player, there seems to be a large amount of veterans who steer us noobs towards joining these corporations.

It feels incredibly impersonal. Like your delegating the fostering of your potential community to a standardized social services department.

BNI and EVE-U being orphanages or boarding schools. You don't wish to deal with raising the little ones yourself so you have these institutions set up where you drop off new players and hope they transform into something you will want to harness later.

You want new players to stay, yet you don't want to invest the time personally when it comes to teaching and training. You just want to hand that responsibility off to BNI and EVE-U, make them do the hardwork so you can harvest the fields of their labor.

Why will the veterans of EVE argue that new players should stay, but then put forth no effort towards training up those new people, instead passing off that responsibility onto someone else? Why should new people want to take part in a community of people who as a whole demonstrate that they don't want to interact with them, instead just kicking and shuffling them to others?
Tha's so funny. Corporations, if I may instruct you, are generally involved in on-going actions and activities. They aren't TRAINING people. If you're TRAINED enough to join on-going activities without being a liability or a DRAG, join up. If you AREN'T...GET some schoolin'. EVE Uni? You should be glad it's there.

You probably don't like reading information panels either. You prefer someone to read them to you, so you can relax?

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#107 - 2014-03-14 21:36:32 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Divine Entervention wrote:
As a new player, there seems to be a large amount of veterans who steer us noobs towards joining these corporations.

It feels incredibly impersonal. Like your delegating the fostering of your potential community to a standardized social services department.

BNI and EVE-U being orphanages or boarding schools. You don't wish to deal with raising the little ones yourself so you have these institutions set up where you drop off new players and hope they transform into something you will want to harness later.

You want new players to stay, yet you don't want to invest the time personally when it comes to teaching and training. You just want to hand that responsibility off to BNI and EVE-U, make them do the hardwork so you can harvest the fields of their labor.

Why will the veterans of EVE argue that new players should stay, but then put forth no effort towards training up those new people, instead passing off that responsibility onto someone else? Why should new people want to take part in a community of people who as a whole demonstrate that they don't want to interact with them, instead just kicking and shuffling them to others?


Posting in someone's thread who obviously failed to do some research.

Otherwise OP would have seen NCQA and it's regulars

But, 6 pages so:

Trollfactor: 70%

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Vyl Vit
#108 - 2014-03-14 21:38:26 UTC
I don't think you pose a dilemma. You probably wish your criticism reaches that height. However, unfortunately, you come off as one who'd rather be catered to than to learn (OP). You do have a choice though. Thumb through the hundreds of corp info panels till you find one that specifically states "we train noobs" (or words to that effect), join just any old corp and tell them you EXPECT them to train you (and see how far that takes you), join EVE Uni (work hard, and learn your stuff), or stay in your NPC corp telling the world how unfair it is. When you find someone willing to bend over backwards to accomodate your ego, let me know. I have a bridge in San Francisco I'd like to sell him. (It's orange.)

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#109 - 2014-03-14 21:45:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
The EUNI rules are there for a couple of reasons, the keep the neutrality of the corp so people who leave can join any political entity in eve they wish, and to stop stupid things like that 60billion raven loss which leads to rage quitting. The rules are relaxed really quickly. Someone lost a bling mach in a incursion to WTs when I was then and AFAIK they were not kicked. If someone is finding the (very tame) rules too restrictive, well, it's time to move on. EUNI is not a permanent corp, you are not supposed to stay there so you can, correct that must, get bored of these rules soon and that's a good thing, it means you probably learned all EUNI will give you.

No this is not the throw in and die in a million rifters way, but someone people prefer this academic way to learn the game, some people prefer the chaotic way. It's a good thing for both ways to exist because people are different.

Blackbirds, yes, blackbirds were used. A blackbird is a ship in eve online that anyone can train and fly if they want. If you don't like fighting blackbirds then why dec someone who likes to fly blackbirds? Seems pretty silly and masochistic to me.

Not wanting to fight? lolwut. EUNI has a public killboard, so you can see the fights they have every day. Pretty stupid to lie about this when the info is right there for anyone to look up.

I've been on both ends, in Eve UNI, and deccing eve uni in Marmite, so I don't know why people make stuff up to smear EUNI. Really bizarre.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#110 - 2014-03-14 21:47:23 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:

Why will the veterans of EVE argue that new players should stay, but then put forth no effort towards training up those new people, instead passing off that responsibility onto someone else? Why should new people want to take part in a community of people who as a whole demonstrate that they don't want to interact with them, instead just kicking and shuffling them to others?


Because properly teaching people to be successful players is very hard. Most are not up to this task, to newbies are shunted to E-UNI or similar, which do "good enough" mass-teaching. That is, "good enough" by some peoples' definitions. The amount of bad lessons and habits I have had to un-teach to people who went through awful mass-teaching systems is ridiculous.

There are those of us who take the time to teach newbies in a more personal, smaller group (or even individual) setting, where the newbie is a participating, valuable member instead of just a face in the crowd. The people and corps dedicated to this simply cannot be of the size and prominence that "mass" corps like E-Uni or BNI can be. You have to look a bit harder. Start by talking to the people in the New Citizens Q&A forum. Not only do they have great advice, they know where the best places for newbies are.

Your dilemma is has a real world parallel:
- Newbie: "Where's a good place that I can get some delicious cake?"
- Bittervet: "Oh yeah, just go to Walmart, they have cake."
- Newbie: "WTF this cake is ****! I want good cake!"
Answer? Go find a smaller bakery that cares about quality over quantity. Same goes for corps and Eve tutoring.


Confirming OP does an unjustified flame and whine instead of reading stuff and finding NCQA

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BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2014-03-14 21:50:35 UTC
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:
Fun Fact #352357741-79b

I found it easier to get a alt into GSF then EVE Uni!

I totally believe that lol. Eve Uni has a nightmarish application process. I was joking with some people about the effort required to infiltrate the corp and get director roles. My estimate is 5 years of work minimum.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#112 - 2014-03-14 21:50:56 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Though I do appreciate you taking your time to explain your points of view, I'd appreciate it if you kept your statements along the lines of discussing the fact that veterans will state they want new players in game, then erect a minimum skill point wall to avoid having to interact with them.

I'm fairly certain leveraging personal insults towards me for simply stating a different point of view other than your own is against this forum's rules.


Hmz. I got in a minimum 20mil SP corp...with less then 14mil SP

When a recruiter, I have waived that SP limit mulitple times...If I deemed the recruit viable enough to join us.

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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#113 - 2014-03-14 21:55:34 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Well thanks for clarifying.

Being new you see the huge scope of the game and realize it will be hard to find a place to make the game feel meaningful through your contribution.

Then you ask people for direction and are told that you can make an impact from the beginning, get involved right away, one of the positives of the game not being level based.

But you've more than explained how a new person isn't to expect to get involved in things that would be meaningful. I guess the only initial appeal of the game is suppose to be the novelty of flying space ships, and not the fact that game is advertised as a levelless FFA sandbox. That's suppose to hold you over for the year to reach the 15mil SP corporations so you can begin experiencing impact game play has on a "single shard" with player controlled politics and territory.

EVE-U and BNI are essentially day care.


Please keep trolling...it's fun to see so many take the bait

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Coffee Rocks
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#114 - 2014-03-14 21:59:31 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
As a new player, there seems to be a large amount of veterans who steer us noobs towards joining these corporations.

It feels incredibly impersonal. Like your delegating the fostering of your potential community to a standardized social services department.

BNI and EVE-U being orphanages or boarding schools. You don't wish to deal with raising the little ones yourself so you have these institutions set up where you drop off new players and hope they transform into something you will want to harness later.

You want new players to stay, yet you don't want to invest the time personally when it comes to teaching and training. You just want to hand that responsibility off to BNI and EVE-U, make them do the hardwork so you can harvest the fields of their labor.

Why will the veterans of EVE argue that new players should stay, but then put forth no effort towards training up those new people, instead passing off that responsibility onto someone else? Why should new people want to take part in a community of people who as a whole demonstrate that they don't want to interact with them, instead just kicking and shuffling them to others?


I for one welcome our newbros, and am perfectly happy that the other Nullsec entities don't want them. As evidenced here, you are better off without their bitterness weighing you down, friend.

Come join us! These guys don't mind. Their attitude is "Seriously, what's the worst that a bunch of newbies in rifters - with no ties to the legions of Sov-Nullies and no consideration of the politics down here - what can they do to us anyways?? Hahaha...."

Oh....

Yah....

7o

You never fly alone - Broadcast 4 Reps | Twitter: @thecoffeerocks | Steam: CoffeeRocks
Storm Novah
Yada Industries
#115 - 2014-03-15 08:38:26 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I'm beginning to suspect that the OP isn't here to play Eve at all, he's here to play the forums instead. Virtually every post is designed to infuriate or inflame others.


Experts believe that is the definition of the word "troll".

Exactly the reason I didn't respond to his comment on my post... its moot because he's not here to listen to constructive answers.