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Crime & Punishment

 
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Ganking is PVP

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loyalanon
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#61 - 2014-03-12 00:15:31 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
loyalanon wrote:


this was hilarious. all i read was - lets drag out the time it takes to gank someone so that they can form a fleet asap and come and fight off the gankers, and also removal of sec status in high sec so gankers can live if they fail.

Also dont compare your corps killboard to your own when you are on less then 2% of the killmails.

gg easy.


i really thought most of you would want to revamp the boringness of high sec pvp. thanks for letting me know that you're really just out to make people cry


Thanks for stopping by and thanks for your tears
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#62 - 2014-03-12 02:06:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Starfox
Berasus wrote:


I wouldn't mind a small tweaking of the response. Tho if i had to pick something about concord to nerf it'd be the god like ewar they apply when they arrive. I think you should be able to keep shooting untill they've actually destroyed your ship. Maybe make them apply ewar more comparable in strength to that used by players, make the gankers fit eccm if they want an extra few seconds unjammed.

I.e: concord cruiser arrives relatively early, applies some standard jamming / trackign disruption / neut etc - but not the kind they use now, have them apply ewar that can potentially be mitigated by gankers fitting for it.
Then 5'ish seconds later at the normal response time the battleship shows up and starts popping ships with its usual instant death damage.

I also wouldn't mind the cruiser doing a minor-moderate amount of damage (tankable) but the battleship which shows up a touch latter does its usual instant death damage.

Make fitting for suicide ganking more than just "How much DPS can i squeeze in for a minimum of isk". Make them have to think about whether a little eccm to buy them an extra 5 seconds of shooting time would be worth it. Or whether that destroyer needs to fit a dcu so it can survive the cruiser damage and keep shooting until the battleship shows up


What I'm getting out of this is essentially a buff to Concord. Have Concord cruisers arrive first (so before the standard Concord response times, so a decrease in Concord response times), ECM, nuet, apply damage, but is "tankable" or otherwise able to fight off through the use of ECCM, tank, etc. How about this, instead of decreasing Concord response times to allow the Concord Cruisers to arrive first, let's have it remain the same. Let's have the Concord Cruisers show up first at it's current response time and apply what you're talking about, then 5 or so seconds later have the Concord Battleships warp in bringing the death. Thus, increasing Concord response times, but also compromising for your idea as well.

Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:



Also, I'm not sure who taught you (BeBopAReBOP) math, but half your DPS and double the time = same damage. So if you could kill it before, you still can kill it now. I'd even want to increase Concord response times by a greater margin because of the impact friendly forces can have against the miner. I'm trying to reduce Concord impact and leave greater choices in the hands of the players. Ganking someone in Jita compared to Villore shouldn't just be tied to Concord response times, but also player response times. So in effect, you should have a longer time to kill a target if nobody shows up to help him, but in heavily traveled systems, that won't happen, so you have to take into account the playerbase.


"but half your DPS and double the time = same damage"

Your idea does technically make it slightly more difficult to gank. Also people will simple continue to complain regardless.

But let's look at some maths.. ugh.. Target X has 13k EHP. X is in 0.5 security space. We have 700 dps. That would take 18.5 seconds to take down said target with a Concord response time of 18 seconds. This is what we call a 50/50. There might be some slight lag that might work in our favor, it might not. It comes down to variables that are otherwise outside of our control.

Now. Let's apply your idea. 13k EHP, 0.5 sys, 350 dps. it would now take 37.1 seconds to take down the target with a Concord response time of 36 seconds. We have a difference of 1.1 seconds in the time it would take to destroy the target between the two equations; 0.5 seconds for the first. Thus, not even having this target able to be considered a 50/50 chance anymore.

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#63 - 2014-03-12 02:44:04 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
Ganking is PVP - but what you did, killing that miner, is a form of PVP called griefing, which is a bannable offence. Unfortunately CCP chooses not to enforce their own rules in this regard. You had nothing to gain from destroying that miners ship except for the pleasure of causing him headache and lost time, which is griefing.



It is not griefing...

There are many, many legitimate reasons to blow up a miner:
1.) To loot his ship.
2.) To scare away other miners from the system.
3.) To teach miners that they need to tank their ships.
4.) As part of an extortion / protection racket.
5.) To drive up the price of mining ships.
6.) To drive up the price of minerals.
7.) Because someone paid you to do it.
8.) To participate in Hulkageddon like events.

and on and on... Griefing would require him to follow the same character around, system to system, and continually attack the same player. Generally attacking mining barges, perhaps because they are easy prey, is not griefing.



You forgot enforcing the Code.
Robbie Robot
Exiled Kings
Pain And Compliance
#64 - 2014-03-12 03:30:06 UTC
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
It is senseless at best... I agree that the high-sec environment should not be considered 'safe'. But what they are doing is griefing. They may not be targeting a particular person, but they are targeting a particular group of people that try to play this game.

The difference in high-sec and low/null is that you expect to be engaged, and you're more prepared for it. Also, you don't see these types of low life people in low/null because they're too weak, and scared to be in a place that puts them on a level playing field.

The consequences for attacking in high-sec should be a lot greater, making the griefer carefully consider the value of attacking a random newb.

This thread is too long.

Anyway, I can personally say that loyalanon comes to low sec to PvP, and that he is competent and can cut it there. Low sec skirmish PvP is divine.

Also, people do loot the wrecks, they just don't loot them on the same character that ganked. If you were to return to the belt immediately, you might notice someone else loots the wrecks. It can be profitable. A meta 0 fit catalyst with rigs costs about 1.2M. Guess how much strip miners and other modules will drop? I'm guessing the average is about 1.5M. How many catalysts does it take to kill a retriever? 2. So, if the miner drops 1M in rocks, it is profit, not counting the odd expensive module.

The other point is to scare off miners. I might know someone that wants to mine in a .5 system close to a low sec system, and I might be willing to gank miners for them so my friend can get the good rocks. Sure, I could just hand isk to my friend, but EVE is about earning what you have.

So, if you want to mine, you need to join a corp that isn't industrial. True industrial corps are just wardec/gank targets.
Jared Lennox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2014-03-12 04:38:08 UTC
We love mackinaw peeveepee
Oh and freighter peeveepee loyal :)

http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html
Sarah xCalibre
Pod Liberation Authority
#66 - 2014-03-12 06:38:03 UTC
Alyth Nerun wrote:

My guess is you have never tried to actualy move around in highsec in a -10 char. Let's just say you have to know what you are doing, otherwise the faction police will kill your ship within seconds. It needs a lot of preparations and knowledge about the game mechanics in order to work.

If you would like to play eve in isolation without other players ruining your day I suggest you play on singularity if you don't care about the sandbox anyway. But you can't have it both ways and sell your stuff on a market that is driven by PvP including suicide ganking while opting out of it. EVE would simply not work that way.


Couldnt help laugh about this, "It needs a lot of preparation and knowledge about game mechanics", if you think that you are clueless. Move alt, find a miner, jump into your small ganking destroyer, warp gate to gate, warp to your alt, target press F1, how is this a lot of preparation and knowledge of game mechanics? Cause really thats all it takes. Dont come here thinking you are some leet pvper cause you can gank a few miners cause its really really easy to do and anyone can do it.
  • Sarah xCalibre
Brylan Grey
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2014-03-12 06:43:05 UTC
Ganking is only pvp because it is player versus player. That's it. Beyond that, it is simply a briefer using game merchant a to kill and benefit from multi account or having a pal nearby to loot.

Gankers are a part of eve like rats are a part of grain.
Alyth Nerun
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#68 - 2014-03-12 09:07:50 UTC
Sarah xCalibre wrote:
Couldnt help laugh about this, "It needs a lot of preparation and knowledge about game mechanics", if you think that you are clueless. Move alt, find a miner, jump into your small ganking destroyer, warp gate to gate, warp to your alt, target press F1, how is this a lot of preparation and knowledge of game mechanics? Cause really thats all it takes. Dont come here thinking you are some leet pvper cause you can gank a few miners cause its really really easy to do and anyone can do it.

Since the ganking alt is usually -10 it is a bit more complicated to move around in highsec. You also completely forgot the scout and damage calculation parts. You also need to prepare the system to maximize the time you have.

Lets compare this to a typical nullsec 1337-PvP scenario:

  1. assign drones
  2. fap

Does not look very complicated to me.
Sarah xCalibre
Pod Liberation Authority
#69 - 2014-03-12 09:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarah xCalibre
Alyth Nerun wrote:
Sarah xCalibre wrote:
Couldnt help laugh about this, "It needs a lot of preparation and knowledge about game mechanics", if you think that you are clueless. Move alt, find a miner, jump into your small ganking destroyer, warp gate to gate, warp to your alt, target press F1, how is this a lot of preparation and knowledge of game mechanics? Cause really thats all it takes. Dont come here thinking you are some leet pvper cause you can gank a few miners cause its really really easy to do and anyone can do it.

Since the ganking alt is usually -10 it is a bit more complicated to move around in highsec. You also completely forgot the scout and damage calculation parts. You also need to prepare the system to maximize the time you have.

Lets compare this to a typical nullsec 1337-PvP scenario:

  1. assign drones
  2. fap

Does not look very complicated to me.


Ive moved around highsec plenty as -10 thankyouverymuch, but dont come here and tell everyone that ganking a miner takes vast knowledge about game mechanics when it just doesnt, there is a reason over 50% of the eve poluation has ganked a mining vessel sometime during their pvp experience, most of us just find it fun to do now and then and move on. Sitting on forums like you guys do bragging about how many people you scared away from the game is just, well pathetic.

Before you say "noone is bragging about making people quit the game"

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


"does not profit from it in any way".

I profit from it like crazy.

Besides, if your misreading of the definition were in any way true, I'd have been perma banned by now. I've personally driven enough people into quitting the game that I've lost count.

Nyah, nyah.
  • Sarah xCalibre
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley
New Eden Tech Support
#70 - 2014-03-12 10:58:04 UTC
I would say High Sec is more dangerous, in some ways, than Low or Null. Game mechanics are important wherever you go in New Eden... The illusion of safety in High Sec breeds complacency and that's where people step in sh*t. Throw some wardecs in there for good measure, count on people not expecting a fight because they're clueless or unprepared and BOOM ... all of a sudden we get some emergent gameplay. Fight back - we like it rough.

Thank me later :D
Maximillian Bonaparte
Interstellar Booty Hunters
#71 - 2014-03-12 13:32:05 UTC
It is PvP of course.

Is it really a 'good fight;? NO!

Is it all that profitable? NO!

Does in make you good at PvP? NO!

You are only risking a cheap catalyst or thrasher; you know exactly what you will loose and where, with a very small hit to sec status.
It also makes your kill board look deceptively excellent since concord kill mails do not show on the major killboard sites.

That being said, eve is a predatory sort of ecology, and other than tanking your ship, you have a LOT of options.

Remember that regular gankers in high have a lot of killrights stacked against them. Either yourself or some friendly bounty hunter can stalk them, kill them, and at the very least slow down their activities wherever they operate.

They'll think twice about it if you kill them a couple of times; especially if you can do it more than once and catch them in a larger ship. It will also disrupt their falsely perfect kill boards.

There is no real challenge or profit in ganking miners. Ganking haulers or missioners with expensive cargo; now THAT takes some planning and skill, and it can yield great profits.

Interstellar Booty Hunters - Pirate Small Gang PvP Forever!
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#72 - 2014-03-12 14:08:09 UTC
Sarah xCalibre wrote:
Move alt, find a miner, jump into your small ganking destroyer, warp gate to gate, warp to your alt, target press F1, how is this a lot of preparation and knowledge of game mechanics?

There are also people who are unable to hammer a nail into a wall. I hope this answers your question.

We should be glad hat these people found an activity that matches their abilities.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Lakotnik
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#73 - 2014-03-12 14:30:36 UTC
loyalanon wrote:
Good Morning esteemed community of C & P,

Yesterday I had an interesting conversation with a 2 month old high sec miner regarding myself and my corp ganking miners in high sec.

As is customary in local, after I fought a mackinaw with my catalyst I exclaimed "Good Fight" in local, and proceeded to express my love of PVP, by saying " I love to pvp"

A miner who was in the ice belt at the time proceeded to respond that it is not pvp due to it not being a fitted combat ship that could kill me. Killing defenceless ships is not pvp due to them not being able to fight you.

I proceeded to explain that as I was versing a player, and the person I killed was a player, therefore I was "versing" another player which qualifies to fall under player versus player.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but every ship in the game, besides concord, npc rats, faction police, customs officials etc is another player, and therefor ganking another player, defenceless or not is PVP.

Miners/carebears that read this need to be well aware that Ganking is PVP and always will be, defenceless or not.

Thankyou in advance,

loyalanon
The Conference Elite
Enforcer of the Code. and champions of high sec.


Blobing is PvP too.

Best regards,

Proviblob member.
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2014-03-12 15:07:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Buck Futz
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:

What I am suggesting does not make high sec 'safer' in any way other than actually to let more people in on the fighting. It's still just as dangerous for the lone miner/hauler. But give him a busy system, and there's bound to be people willing to help out against those nasty pirates.



There would be a very easy way to do this without changing with concord timers and 'special reduced damage in highsec' which would be an absolute mess to balance and would never happen.

-Remove NPC 'faction police' from automatically attacking outlaw characters.
-Keep Concord as is.

Outlaw chars would be allowed to enter highsec.
Those outlaws could be freely engaged by any player.
Outlaws can fight back if aggressed - however if outlaws pre-emptively attack an unflagged player - Concord arrives as usual.

Currently -10 players are allowed in highsec, but due to NPC faction police - there isn't really a chance for a 'real' battle to occur between vigilantes and pirates in highsec.

Right now, NPCs artificially force the pirates to stay in fast disposable ships. Any 'slugging match' between larger pirate ships and willing vigilantes is always one-sided and cut short due to successive waves of NPC jamming and DPS. Because pirates aren't stupid they never put themselves in those positions. Thus, opportunities to 'attack the gankers' are limited to the very short, unsatisfying windows we have today. (during a gank, or a WTZ pod)

Allow pirate ships greater range of motion in highsec and I guarantee that there will be more fights between larger pirate ships and eager vigilantes who would prefer the favorable 'high sec rules of engagement' to getting bootstomped in lowsec.

TLDR; NPC faction police are an artificial barrier to consensual highsec combat. Remove them for security sec purposes, and leave CONCORD as is. Watch PVP increase as bored pirates risk entering highsec for good fights, while leaving one-sided ganking mostly unchanged.
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#75 - 2014-03-12 16:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Xolve
Jamwara DelCalicoe Ashley wrote:
I would say High Sec is more dangerous, in some ways, than Low or Null. Game mechanics are important wherever you go in New Eden... The illusion of safety in High Sec breeds complacency and that's where people step in sh*t. Throw some wardecs in there for good measure, count on people not expecting a fight because they're clueless or unprepared and BOOM ... all of a sudden we get some emergent gameplay. Fight back - we like it rough.


You actually believe High Sec is more dangerous than LowSec or 0.0 because of complacency of all things?

Surely, there aren't hundreds of pilots, right this very moment fluttering about their alliances space in nullsec without a care in the world running their anomalies, praying for a big payday and completely ignoring that neutral character in local.

Surely, there aren't any number of pilots running level 5 missions in their lowsec system of choice, in their super pimped out Marauder or aligned carriers ignoring the single neutral pilot in local waiting to cash in on their relative ignorace; can't light a cyno in my deadspace mission complex.

Most of the players in this game often don't pay attention to small details, and those small details are the ones that spawn ALOD articles, hilarious killboard flame wars and all sorts of other pedantic flaming. Making blanket comparisons between killing a mission runner, a miner, or someones transports ship to taking out a fleet roaming through space are two completely separate things. Bragging about killing relatively defenseless ship, and feeling that joyous overwhelming smug feeling because you just engaged a fleet outnumbered and won, but not only won but absolutely crushed your opponents is completely different on all accounts.

You say Highsec is different from Low-sec and 0.0? Well, I agree with you, nobody in 0.0 or low-sec gives a single iota of **** about anything that happens in highsec, saying it takes more 'skill' because of game mechanics is the most ludicrous thing I've ever seen posted on these hallowed forums.

"Prove it" you say- sure, no problem.

If you kill a dude multi-boxing 50 mackinaws in an ice belt, sure, some people will take notice- a week later your vicious slaughter in the name of CODE. will be forgotten, and nobody will care.

Kill (or lose) 50 Titans however, and CCP will have to reinforce the newbie starter areas for the influx of new players.
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
#76 - 2014-03-12 16:38:50 UTC
loyalanon wrote:
Good Morning esteemed community of C & P,

Yesterday I had an interesting conversation with a 2 month old high sec miner regarding myself and my corp ganking miners in high sec.

As is customary in local, after I fought a mackinaw with my catalyst I exclaimed "Good Fight" in local, and proceeded to express my love of PVP, by saying " I love to pvp"

A miner who was in the ice belt at the time proceeded to respond that it is not pvp due to it not being a fitted combat ship that could kill me. Killing defenceless ships is not pvp due to them not being able to fight you.

I proceeded to explain that as I was versing a player, and the person I killed was a player, therefore I was "versing" another player which qualifies to fall under player versus player.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but every ship in the game, besides concord, npc rats, faction police, customs officials etc is another player, and therefor ganking another player, defenceless or not is PVP.

Miners/carebears that read this need to be well aware that Ganking is PVP and always will be, defenceless or not.

Thankyou in advance,

loyalanon
The Conference Elite
Enforcer of the Code. and champions of high sec.







ganking in nulles is pvp

wardecing highsec miners and shooting them is pvp...

however suicide ganking is not... it's DVP, douchebag vs. player

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Alyth Nerun
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#77 - 2014-03-12 16:46:13 UTC
Sarah Flynt wrote:
Sarah xCalibre wrote:
Move alt, find a miner, jump into your small ganking destroyer, warp gate to gate, warp to your alt, target press F1, how is this a lot of preparation and knowledge of game mechanics?

There are also people who are unable to hammer a nail into a wall. I hope this answers your question.

We should be glad hat these people found an activity that matches their abilities.

I sense some bitterness in this post. I invite you to share your story with us or to contribute something non-toxic and constructive to this brilliant thread.
Buck Futz
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2014-03-12 16:53:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Buck Futz
Xolve wrote:


"Prove it" you say- sure, no problem.

If you kill a dude multi-boxing 50 mackinaws in an ice belt, sure, some people will take notice- a week later your vicious slaughter in the name of CODE. will be forgotten, and nobody will care.

Kill (or lose) 50 Titans however, and CCP will have to reinforce the newbie starter areas for the influx of new players.


Because nobody ever heard about Burn Jita.
Or the Ice Interdiction.
Or Hulkaggeddon.

Naturally, CCP did its best to milk those activities for press as well.
The difference? Nulsec PL whining only brings ridicule.
Carebear whining brings out the heavy-duty CCP nerf cannon.

*cough*Technerf/BargeBuff/Crimewatch
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#79 - 2014-03-12 17:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Xolve
Buck Futz wrote:
Because nobody ever heard about Burn Jita.
Or the Ice Interdiction.
Or Hulkaggeddon.


Tell me more about Helicity Boson's Hulk-a-geddon or it's reincarnation under GoonSwarm sponsorship- Or the Ice Interdiction/Burn Jita events largely orchestrated by the Ministry of Love and how these events mysteriously correlate to High Sec (aside from that being the designated killing floor for the events).

All three events were brought to you by Null/Low sec players


Buck Futz wrote:
Naturally, CCP did its best to milk those activities for press as well.
The difference? Nulsec PL whining only brings ridicule.
Carebear whining brings out the heavy-duty CCP nerf cannon.

*cough*Technerf/BargeBuff/Crimewatch


The Tech nerf was long overdue, as was the bargebuff and the crimewatch revamp; which aside from killing can flipping as a viable source of PvP in highsec, were all very well implemented and needed changes.

Nobody was whining about the aftermath of B-R, it was the fight many of us wanted for months (regardless of outcome); and even though we ended up on the short stick, we still killed more titans than had been previously killed in any capital battle. It was literally a win/win for all parties involved.

What have carebears ever whined about that brought any actual change to the game (aside from the Marauder buff, which given the price-tag and relative uselessness of pre-buff marauders was probably a change for the better)?
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2014-03-12 17:26:35 UTC
Arguments about what is and isn't "pvp" are exactly the same as who is and isn't a "pirate." They are all futile arguments where parties vie to exclude or be included in the group.

The best option, in my opinion, is to not give a **** what other people think. I blow up miners. I blow them up in wormholes and I blow them up in hisec. If I ever saw one in lowsec or nullsec I'd blow them up too. I'm a legend in my own mind and since I'm the one paying the bills, that will be good enough.

The only thing that matters is what a man can do and what a man can't do. Take all you can, give nothing back.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."