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Ganking is PVP

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loyalanon
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1 - 2014-03-10 22:44:54 UTC  |  Edited by: loyalanon
Good Morning esteemed community of C & P,

Yesterday I had an interesting conversation with a 2 month old high sec miner regarding myself and my corp ganking miners in high sec.

As is customary in local, after I fought a mackinaw with my catalyst I exclaimed "Good Fight" in local, and proceeded to express my love of PVP, by saying " I love to pvp"

A miner who was in the ice belt at the time proceeded to respond that it is not pvp due to it not being a fitted combat ship that could kill me. Killing defenceless ships is not pvp due to them not being able to fight you.

I proceeded to explain that as I was versing a player, and the person I killed was a player, therefore I was "versing" another player which qualifies to fall under player versus player.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but every ship in the game, besides concord, npc rats, faction police, customs officials etc is another player, and therefor ganking another player, defenceless or not is PVP.

Miners/carebears that read this need to be well aware that Ganking is PVP and always will be, defenceless or not.

Thankyou in advance,

loyalanon
The Conference Elite
Enforcer of the Code. and a true Champion of high sec.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#2 - 2014-03-10 23:00:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Ganking is PvP, just like competing on the market is a form of PvP.

It is also a sport, kind of like hunting. Where you venture out, find your prey, and kill it.

However, there are many types of hunters in this world: Some hunt dear with a rifle, some hunt hogs with a bow and arrow, some hunt tigers with a spear. I would rank miner ganking next to clubbing baby seals or drowning puppies.

*edit* Don't get me wrong, this is doing a much needed service to the community, perhaps helping these players evolve and adapt. Especially since death isn't final here, and your targets can learn from your attacks.
Kazumi Amaterasu
Banteki
#3 - 2014-03-10 23:26:15 UTC
Ganking is PVP - but what you did, killing that miner, is a form of PVP called griefing, which is a bannable offence. Unfortunately CCP chooses not to enforce their own rules in this regard. You had nothing to gain from destroying that miners ship except for the pleasure of causing him headache and lost time, which is griefing.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#4 - 2014-03-10 23:31:53 UTC
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
Ganking is PVP - but what you did, killing that miner, is a form of PVP called griefing, which is a bannable offence. Unfortunately CCP chooses not to enforce their own rules in this regard. You had nothing to gain from destroying that miners ship except for the pleasure of causing him headache and lost time, which is griefing.



It is not griefing...

There are many, many legitimate reasons to blow up a miner:
1.) To loot his ship.
2.) To scare away other miners from the system.
3.) To teach miners that they need to tank their ships.
4.) As part of an extortion / protection racket.
5.) To drive up the price of mining ships.
6.) To drive up the price of minerals.
7.) Because someone paid you to do it.
8.) To participate in Hulkageddon like events.

and on and on... Griefing would require him to follow the same character around, system to system, and continually attack the same player. Generally attacking mining barges, perhaps because they are easy prey, is not griefing.

Kazumi Amaterasu
Banteki
#5 - 2014-03-10 23:41:08 UTC
It is griefing.

He had no reason to single out that person and attack him. Did he loot the wreck, I highly doubt it. Did he scare other miners away, no. Are other miners "learning" anything? No.

It's funny, when you go to places in space where PVP is expected, the community is totally different - people actually have constructive conversations and get to know the community. In high-sec on the other hand, people have learned to keep their mouth shut and do their best to keep themselves out of these griefers sights. It's crazy... Noone really interacts in high-sec outside of their corporation or alliance... at all. Thanks to low life people that spend their time griefing others...

If CCP made ALL space like lowsec/null "griefing" wouldn't exist.
loyalanon
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#6 - 2014-03-10 23:49:10 UTC  |  Edited by: loyalanon
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
It is griefing.

He had no reason to single out that person and attack him. Did he loot the wreck, I highly doubt it. Did he scare other miners away, no. Are other miners "learning" anything? No.

It's funny, when you go to places in space where PVP is expected, the community is totally different - people actually have constructive conversations and get to know the community. In high-sec on the other hand, people have learned to keep their mouth shut and do their best to keep themselves out of these griefers sights. It's crazy... Boone really interacts in high-sec outside of their corporation or alliance... at all. Thanks to low life people that spend their time griefing others...

If CCP made ALL space like lowsec/null "griefing" wouldn't exist.


I appreciate your feedback, however as a champion of high sec I disagree with you. I dont consider pvping miners as griefing and never have done so.

I like to think of it as - "stimulating the economy" and "reminding players that the only place you are truly safe is docked - high sec or not"

If you bothered to check some facts regarding myself you would see that I am very good at pvping miners in James 315 territory. I would even go so far as to say I am the number 1 exhumer killer in all of Eve, the undisputed champion of killing exhumers.

https://zkillboard.com/character/1941616627/

Your comment -

Quote:
Noone really interacts in high-sec outside of their corporation or alliance... at all.


I am interacting with other characters as this is a multiplayer game after all and by you saying that my interaction with other characters in high sec by pvping them is griefing - and a bannable offense,

I dont think I understand what you are trying to say.
Kazumi Amaterasu
Banteki
#7 - 2014-03-11 00:01:42 UTC
CCPs own words:
Quote:
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.


Spin it how you like, but that's exactly what you're doing.

CCP should work a little harder on figuring out how to solve the issue of people like you running around. If they expect to really build their subscriber base, people like you do not help.
loyalanon
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#8 - 2014-03-11 00:05:14 UTC  |  Edited by: loyalanon
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
CCPs own words:
Quote:
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.


Spin it how you like, but that's exactly what you're doing.

CCP should work a little harder on figuring out how to solve the issue of people like you running around. If they expect to really build their subscriber base, people like you do not help.


Why have I not been banned yet?

Also as a champion of high sec I do profit from ganking miners.

For example: A 10mil t2 catalyst killing a mackinaw/hulk has the potential to drop 10mil+ from modules and a further few million from the t2 salvage alone, so therefore I am not technically griefing but deriving an income from a valid playing style.

Your knowledge of non-consensual miner pvp is very limited at best, I would suggest you do some further research on the matter before trying to tell any champion of high sec that what they are doing is going against the very limited number of rules in eve.

#logic'd
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#9 - 2014-03-11 00:08:37 UTC
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
It is griefing.

He had no reason to single out that person and attack him. Did he loot the wreck, I highly doubt it. Did he scare other miners away, no. Are other miners "learning" anything? No.

It's funny, when you go to places in space where PVP is expected, the community is totally different - people actually have constructive conversations and get to know the community. In high-sec on the other hand, people have learned to keep their mouth shut and do their best to keep themselves out of these griefers sights. It's crazy... Noone really interacts in high-sec outside of their corporation or alliance... at all. Thanks to low life people that spend their time griefing others...

If CCP made ALL space like lowsec/null "griefing" wouldn't exist.


Somehow you missed the point:

When I fly through nullsec, come into a system and catch a mackinaw at the ice belt, is that griefing? Why is that different than doing the same thing in highsec?

Myself, and my Corp don't hunt in highsec because we consider it like hunting cats by putting out bowls of milk and food. It might make good Chinese food, but it doesn't have the level of challenge we desire. However, fundamentally, attacking the random miner/carebear in highsec is not that different than attacking the random carebear/miner in low or null. Both targets are equally defenseless, both targets don't want to be destroyed, both targets are minding their own business when we attack, etc. Just because someone incorrectly assumes they are "Safe" in highsec does not mean highsec is, nor should be, safe. In this game, you should expect & prepare for PvP EVERYWHERE.

As for interacting with other players, I do so on my highsec indy toons as well as in nullsec. It isn't suicide gankers that keep people in their shells, nor is it the environment of fear and distrust, nor is it the anti-social nature of many gamers. Instead, it is the generally the lack of group activities that perpetuate the low interactions with others. Mining, Missions, Industry, Trade, Hauling, and more... these are all low-interaction activities that permeate every corner of highsec, and that's why you see so little interaction. In "PvP" zones, players need to group up to survive or dominate, and that forms the basis for player interaction. Anything that brings two characters together, either as allies or enemies, helps this out.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#10 - 2014-03-11 00:28:00 UTC
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
CCPs own words:
Quote:
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.


Spin it how you like, but that's exactly what you're doing.

CCP should work a little harder on figuring out how to solve the issue of people like you running around. If they expect to really build their subscriber base, people like you do not help.


How do you define, "while he does not profit from it in any way".

Tell me, why can I attack a random miner in nullsec (which is where I'd attack them), but I cannot attack that random miner in highsec? I mean, what possible reason for attacking applies to the nullsec miner that doesn't also apply to the highsec miner? Let me put it another way:

I'm looking for a reason that I should NOT be allowed to attack a highsec miner, yet doesn't prohibit me from attacking that same miner in nullsec.



Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-03-11 01:00:30 UTC
We do seek to profit. Along with the loot, we sell permits. 10mil isk for an entire year! You can thank CCP for that btw. So your invoking of the "griefing" clause is moot. We have a clear profit motive: your loot or your isk.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#12 - 2014-03-11 01:12:20 UTC
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
CCPs own words:
Quote:
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.


Spin it how you like, but that's exactly what you're doing.

CCP should work a little harder on figuring out how to solve the issue of people like you running around. If they expect to really build their subscriber base, people like you do not help.


"does not profit from it in any way".

I profit from it like crazy.

Besides, if your misreading of the definition were in any way true, I'd have been perma banned by now. I've personally driven enough people into quitting the game that I've lost count.

Nyah, nyah.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2014-03-11 01:12:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Starfox
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
It is griefing.

He had no reason to single out that person and attack him. Did he loot the wreck, I highly doubt it. Did he scare other miners away, no. Are other miners "learning" anything? No.

It's funny, when you go to places in space where PVP is expected, the community is totally different - people actually have constructive conversations and get to know the community. In high-sec on the other hand, people have learned to keep their mouth shut and do their best to keep themselves out of these griefers sights. It's crazy... Noone really interacts in high-sec outside of their corporation or alliance... at all. Thanks to low life people that spend their time griefing others...

If CCP made ALL space like lowsec/null "griefing" wouldn't exist.


I'm afraid you couldn't be more wrong. Every ganker will attempt to loot/salvage the wreck if and when the opportunity presents itself, usually immediately following the gank. Miners have been made aware of loyal's glorious acts, as well as the acts of everyone associated with the New Order and other organizations that represent the same core values. As a result miners are indeed "learning."

Highsec is not Safesec. Just because you happen to be located in highsec does not automatically mean that nothing will happen to you; whether you're in your pod, a shuttle, or an expensive mission ship, you risk your ship and your pod every time you undock. If you were actually willing to play this game and not expect someone to play it for you (CCP making highsec safer for the lazy), then not only would you lessen your chance of becoming a gank target, but also you would have gained the knowledge and understanding that what you're trying to say is not even remotely accurate.

And if by "go to places in space where PVP is expected, the community is totally different - people actually have constructive conversations and get to know the community", you mean trolling each other, then I guess you could be on to something.

EDIT: Confirming loyal is the #1 Exhumer and Barge dismantling specialist in Eve.

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
Kazumi Amaterasu
Banteki
#14 - 2014-03-11 01:17:36 UTC
It is senseless at best... I agree that the high-sec environment should not be considered 'safe'. But what they are doing is griefing. They may not be targeting a particular person, but they are targeting a particular group of people that try to play this game.

The difference in high-sec and low/null is that you expect to be engaged, and you're more prepared for it. Also, you don't see these types of low life people in low/null because they're too weak, and scared to be in a place that puts them on a level playing field.

The consequences for attacking in high-sec should be a lot greater, making the griefer carefully consider the value of attacking a random newb.
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2014-03-11 01:25:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Starfox
You do realize that loyal spends like half the time in lowsec, right? Most miners don't really play this game, they click a button every 30 minutes. The miners who do actively play are less likely to get ganked. However, mining is boring by design, so it's risk vs. reward. Do you want to alt-tab and increase the risk of losing your ship while doing something else, or look at your computer screen, paying attention to your surroundings decreasing the chance of losing your ship.

The consequences can be bad, just depends. Even if you're space-rich and can afford the tags, you still have killrights and eventually you will lose a ship. I can't fly in highsec for any length of time longer than 10 seconds. That does have it's disadvantages.

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#16 - 2014-03-11 01:26:34 UTC
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
It is senseless at best... I agree that the high-sec environment should not be considered 'safe'. But what they are doing is griefing. They may not be targeting a particular person, but they are targeting a particular group of people that try to play this game.

The difference in high-sec and low/null is that you expect to be engaged, and you're more prepared for it. Also, you don't see these types of low life people in low/null because they're too weak, and scared to be in a place that puts them on a level playing field.

The consequences for attacking in high-sec should be a lot greater, making the griefer carefully consider the value of attacking a random newb.


CCP explicitly told the New Order players that they have to ask for money in some form or another in order to be within the rules for bumping.

But suicide ganking is always legitimate. Always.

As for "the consequences", they're fine. Your statement is precisely what James explains in his manifesto, however. "just a little bit more" safety, etc. That's why we kill you freaking people, at the core of it. Because you're playing the game wrong, and you keep lobbying to have it changed to suit you, rather than change yourself to play the game how it works.

So, until you lot finally quit with your bullshit, it continues. And even after that, it continues, because it's fun.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lina Drasselbaff
Doomheim
#17 - 2014-03-11 01:31:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Lina Drasselbaff
Other people have replied while I was typing this so meh I'm gonna post it all anyway.

Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
He had no reason to single out that person and attack him. Did he loot the wreck, I highly doubt it. Did he scare other miners away, no. Are other miners "learning" anything? No.
Join the Anti-ganking channel. Lots of miners are learning lots of things about how to tank, fit ecm drones etc. Besides, if the miners are choosing not to learn, that laziness shouldn't entitle them to immunity.

Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
It's funny, when you go to places in space where PVP is expected.
Please see this image: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65749/1/productionVsDestruction_2013.png
It's a CCP-made image showing where things where made and where things were blown up, grouped by sec status and sized by value.
Notice how the highsec systems have a significant percentage (20 - 25% would be my estimate) of destruction.
Notice also that Jita is by very far the most destructive system by value. It's a 1.0 and apparently after all these years people still haven't learnt not to undock with plex, not to carry hundreds of millions in a t1 hauler, not to undock blingy ships with loads of purple modules.

Anyway, my point is PVP should be expected in high sec. If anyone thinks otherwise then they need to read killboards more.

Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
CCP should work a little harder on figuring out how to solve the issue of people like you running around. If they expect to really build their subscriber base, people like you do not help.
What is this issue? You do know this game's main selling point is being a bastard, right? There's a CCP ad that says "Be the villain", there's a quote from one of the CCP guys saying that one of the great things about this game is that someone can come along and ruin your day.

Indeed the reason I play now is because it's actually quite exciting to know that anyone can take my ship off me, whether for profit or just because they felt like being dicks today. In fact I've spent much of the last few days in suspect status, stealing from cans and shooting mobile tractor units just because I can. Interestingly, most people in highsec leave suspects alone. All this keeps my wits sharp and gameplay exciting. I'm sure many other people enjoy the same thrill.
EVE is a unique game that allows that. Why should that be switched off because people who don't want to accept what the game is won't play something else?


Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
The difference in high-sec and low/null is that you expect to be engaged, and you're more prepared for it.
Yes, that's the problem. People think high sec is "safe" so they don't prepare. But they should. That's the game.

Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
The consequences for attacking in high-sec should be a lot greater, making the griefer carefully consider the value of attacking a random newb.
They lose their ship and modules (and no insurance), they lose sec status and eventually have faction police chase them around, they can't undock for 15 minutes, they have kill rights put against them. What more punishment do you think they should have - serious question?

Also, you never answered Gizznitt Malikite's question.
Alyth Nerun
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#18 - 2014-03-11 01:39:38 UTC
Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
CCPs own words:
Quote:
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others’ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities while he does not profit from it in any way. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.


Spin it how you like, but that's exactly what you're doing.

CCP should work a little harder on figuring out how to solve the issue of people like you running around. If they expect to really build their subscriber base, people like you do not help.

There are in fact a lot of ways ganking miners can be profitable, it's not only because of the loot they may drop.

In fact the miners are an ideal target, as they are mindlessly grinding wealth they have no use for, because they are too busy mindlessly grinding even more ISK. In a way this is the true role of the miner, as the foundation of the PvP food chain.

This is normal EVE gameplay and has nothing to do with "griefing".

But back to the real topic, is ganking miners PvP?

I would clearly say yes, as it is an action taken against another player, but...

You see the problem with our bot-aspirant enemy is that they are often not at the keyboard, not actually playing the game. So the real discussion me thinks is, can we call someone who left the bridge of his ship while in space still a player? I think this question is essential when we try to establish if ganking is PvP or not.
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2014-03-11 01:55:39 UTC
Lina Drasselbaff wrote:
Other people have replied while I was typing this so meh I'm gonna post it all anyway.

Join the Anti-ganking channel. Lots of miners are learning lots of things about how to tank, fit ecm drones etc. Besides, if the miners are choosing not to learn, that laziness shouldn't entitle them to immunity.

Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
It's funny, when you go to places in space where PVP is expected.
Please see this image: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65749/1/productionVsDestruction_2013.png
It's a CCP-made image showing where things where made and where things were blown up, grouped by sec status and sized by value.
Notice how the highsec systems have a significant percentage (20 - 25% would be my estimate) of destruction.
Notice also that Jita is by very far the most destructive system by value. It's a 1.0 and apparently after all these years people still haven't learnt not to undock with plex, not to carry hundreds of millions in a t1 hauler, not to undock blingy ships with loads of purple modules.

Anyway, my point is PVP should be expected in high sec. If anyone thinks otherwise then they need to read killboards more.

Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
CCP should work a little harder on figuring out how to solve the issue of people like you running around. If they expect to really build their subscriber base, people like you do not help.
What is this issue? You do know this game's main selling point is being a bastard, right? There's a CCP ad that says "Be the villain", there's a quote from one of the CCP guys saying that one of the great things about this game is that someone can come along and ruin your day.

Indeed the reason I play now is because it's actually quite exciting to know that anyone can take my ship off me, whether for profit or just because they felt like being dicks today. In fact I've spent much of the last few days in suspect status, stealing from cans and shooting mobile tractor units just because I can. Interestingly, most people in highsec leave suspects alone. All this keeps my wits sharp and gameplay exciting. I'm sure many other people enjoy the same thrill.
EVE is a unique game that allows that. Why should that be switched off because people who don't want to accept what the game is won't play something else?


Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
The difference in high-sec and low/null is that you expect to be engaged, and you're more prepared for it.
Yes, that's the problem. People think high sec is "safe" so they don't prepare. But they should. That's the game.

Kazumi Amaterasu wrote:
The consequences for attacking in high-sec should be a lot greater, making the griefer carefully consider the value of attacking a random newb.
They lose their ship and modules (and no insurance), they lose sec status and eventually have faction police chase them around, they can't undock for 15 minutes, they have kill rights put against them. What more punishment do you think they should have - serious question?

Also, you never answered Gizznitt Malikite's question.

This is a great explanation that really deserves more likes. Too bad I can't like it more. Also, had to remove one of the quotes in order to quote this piece myself.

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#20 - 2014-03-11 01:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Alyth Nerun wrote:

There are in fact a lot of ways ganking miners can be profitable, it's not only because of the loot they may drop.

In fact the miners are an ideal target, as they are mindlessly grinding wealth they have no use for, because they are too busy mindlessly grinding even more ISK. In a way this is the true role of the miner, as the foundation of the PvP food chain.

This is normal EVE gameplay and has nothing to do with "griefing".

But back to the real topic, is ganking miners PvP?

I would clearly say yes, as it is an action taken against another player, but...

You see the problem with our bot-aspirant enemy is that they are often not at the keyboard, not actually playing the game. So the real discussion me thinks is, can we call someone who left the bridge of his ship while in space still a player? I think this question is essential when we try to establish if ganking is PvP or not.
Pretty much this.

Ganking for profit often includes working the market with an alt, or friends in the area that you're ganking in. There's plenty of money to be made replacing the ships and modules used by both gankers and miners.

Consider it an aggressive marketing campaign.

With regards to it being griefing, I refer Kazumi Amaterasu to the official wiki with special reference to suicide ganking, especially the last line.

Ganking is PvP, it's not elite PvP but it's PvP, it's also fun, and some people take their space pixels way too seriously.

PvP itself isn't restricted to making things explode, if it involves competing with another player, or involves the market it can be considered to be PvP.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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