Player Features and Ideas Discussion

The problem with bumping is it is Risk free PvP in high sec.

Risk free PvP is not allowed.


On a technical aside the problem with small ships bumbing large ones is largelly a result of mass bloom on mwd.
It is very immersion breakin gto see a small ship bounce one many thousands of times larger than itself.

The mwd mass addition should probably be changed to a mwd inertia modifier modification to give the same ship control effect without the super large bumping mass.


It might be difficult to do as a module due to lack of mid slots.
A mwd bumping script that moves the penalty from inertia mod to mass mod could also work.

It's more the speed than the mass. A rifter with a 1MN MWD will bump a ship harder than a stabber with a 10MN afterburner. The mass bloom is insignificant unless the ship is using an oversized prop mod, and even then it's still more the extra speed they get. A rifter will bump you at least as hard with a 1MN MWD as it will with a 10MN afterburner.

It is very true that there are more than just a few players in EVE who hate any and all kinds of change and how with frothy-mouthed rage any time a significant change of any kind is suggested. There are even people who want the game to go back to how it was 10 years ago.

I think we can safely say we've moved on from OP's module idea and are discussing the idea of requiring at least a MWD cruiser if you want to bump a freighter, which is reasonable IMO. Frigates should never be able to do the job, but cruisers are much more appropriate in terms of relative overall mass.

You're comparing a solid metal mass penetrating a soft body to a hollow ship actually pushing a much larger hollow ship off course, and trying to justify it "because physics"? It's time for someone to go back to school.

Even a solid bullet is deformed on impact with a human body. If a hollow frigate were to impact a freighter at MWD velocities, it would crumple like a fly on a windshield. Yes, it would cause some damage to the freighter; it may even puncture the outer hull, depending on how thick it is. But the one thing it would not do, regardless of how fast it was moving, is push the freighter wildly off course. While the speed does give the frigate force, the lack of mass means that it cannot preserve momentum. Most of the energy of the impact is expended in damage to the two ships, and the momentum that does get transferred to the larger ship would hardly be enough to notice; there is a such thing as inertia to overcome.

Despite what you have seen from Hollywood, when someone gets hit with a bullet, it does not push them over or knock them off balance. The relative mass is entirely too small to have that kind of an effect. Similarly, a ship whose total mass is a minor fraction of a larger ship will have little effectt upon impact. Yes, speed is a factor, but you cannot ignore all the other relevant factors either.

Now, if you wanted to introduce a structure reinforcement module that would harden up the nose of a ship to give it a better chance of penetration, then we can talk about ships performing like bullets, and using them as one-shot weapons to damage a larger ship. However, they still would have little impact on the direction of the freighter.

Face it, physics in EVE are wholly unrealistic in so many ways, ship bumping not the least of them. Making bumping ability more in line with the relative mass of each ship would be a step in the right direction. If you wanted to preserve the option to bump with smaller ships, then an "inertial magnification field" module would be a reasonable alternative.

Man everyone seems rather focused on the bullet bit. It was simply intended to be an example of how very high velocity can be a significant factor, since everyone before that post was going "whine whine low mass shouldn't be able to do anything."

But hey, if we are sticking with the bullet analogy, let's scale up the mass ratio of the hypothetical bullet to hypothetical person to the same mass ratio of a MWDing frigate plowing into a freighter.

Let's just grab numbers off the wiki for physics of firearms.

Example: A .44 Remington Magnum with a 240 grain jacketed bullet is fired at about 1180 fps [2] at a 170 lbs target. What velocity is imparted to the target?
240 grain = 0.016 kilograms
1180 fps = 360 m/s
170 lbs = 77 kilograms
Mass of bullet * Velocity of bullet = Mass of target * Velocity of target
(0.015) * 360 = 77 * Vt
Vt = 0.07 m/s
Vt = 0.16 mph

In this example, our hypothetical bullet's mass is a mere 1/4812th of the mass of the target.

Now a bump fit 10mn MWD frig such an a Punisher weighs in at a little over 6 mil Kg, to the obelisks 940.
A mere 160th the mass.

If we scale the bullet in the example up to the same proportion while preserving velocity, we have a projectile with a mass of slightly less than half a Kilo, and an action on the target that results in enough force to impart roughly 2.1m/sec Vt.
Dunno about you, but seems rather significant to me.

But enough with the bullet analogy, let's go back to our EVE situation.

I'll be ignoring all the garbage about crumple zones and collision damage and whatnot, because I'm entirely certain they wont be implemented due to the way the game treats bumping, the extra strain required to calculate every collision for potential damage, and the toxic game issues that would arise with it.

Lets take hypothetical person Jon Bumper. He loves bumping. He also love frigates. He especially love bumping while flying frigates, so Jon Bumper grabs his Punisher, slaps some micro aux and ACR's to it, mounts a huge MWD on it, grabs his snake clone, and goes off to find a freighter to bump.

With overheat, Jon Bumper's frig clocks in at a bit over 6 mil Kilos and a bit over 15Km/sec, but let's round down in both cases.

6Mil Kg * 15 Km/sec = 940 Mil Kg * Velocity of target
6*10 = 940 * Vt.
Vt = 95.8 M/sec.

Now a freighter needs to accelerate to 75% of 102 m/s, and it takes a perfect char 41.2 seconds to do so from 0 m/s.

You know what this seems to suggest? That the freighter is warping nowhere, as long as Jon Bumper with his bumping frigate of doom is content to bump it, as he can bump, fly away, turn around, and run into the freighter at full speed long before the freighter gets back to warp speed in the desired direction. John Bumper does not even need to overheat, although he likes to do so because he's a professional.

But I guess the tiny mass is far too small to actually have a significant effect on the freighter, so says everyone. Woeful is Jon Bumper.

LOL - Don't quote Wiki to prove a point about physics, mass in motion, etc.. If you want to play by some of the laws of physics, play with them all. What's the effect on a human body travelling at 15K m/sec that stops and reverses direction in less than a sec?

You prove my point, though. "Spacemagic" makes quoting the rules of physics of no value since the laws either will or won't apply based on the desires of the gods, er... CCP. :-)

Good discussion though. - Thanks

~Universal physics selectively applied to only certain arbitrary areas~
Nooooo.

~System where a highsec ship can damage another by running into it, causing their own ship to be Concorded~
Wait, you say that's not how it would work? So I can't throw a covops in front of a MWDing mission runner and get him Concorded?

~System where running into another ship damages it, but doesn't get you Concorded~
Aww ****, this is getting worse by the second :S Smash all the things!

~Bumping ships somehow only operates in low/nullsec~
Wait, how is this possible? And what happened to highsec? Do we now all get massive force absorbing plates strapped to our ships? I can't wait to abuse this in hilarious fashion by blocking the Jita undock with a half dozen unmovable freighters.

Rule #1 of proposing changes: Do your absolute best to figure out how a horribly sadistic playerbase will twist and break your change until it bleeds, and the masses cry out for a hotfix.

~Universal physics selectively applied to only certain arbitrary areas~
Nooooo.

Yet we can Anchor a station, a POS, or a can? It's obvious from your rebuttals that you don't mine. As you pointed out earlier, this is supposed to be an open forum to discuss ideas. I'm merely pointing out that an object 100 times smaller, if it does collide with the larger object, given that both are of similar nature, like cars, aircraft, spaceships, would cause damage to the smaller object.

To say that there is no solution is not realistic. I'm sure years before Eve they would have said Eve was not even possible. Yet, here it is.

I can tell by your replies you think bumping is fine. It may be in your limited environment. However, not all players live in your little universe. Some actually pay to play the game the way they want to. If you have something constructive, add it, otherwise, you detract from the conversation.

Welcome to Our little Universe, where Bumping is a thing, something we pay to be able to do, because that's how we want to play, in the same environment with the same rules as the one you play in.