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Dual sovereignty for Luminaire solar system Gallente/Caldari
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Erys Charantes
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2014-03-13 07:38:51 UTC
Jace Sarice wrote:
Erys Charantes wrote:

At no point did I claim it would be easy, without massive headaches, or a great deal of need for both sides to step up and take ownership for their responsibilities. Complicated is a mild term, really. The first time either side lets hubris or ego get in the way, it would become a nightmare. I personally don't think anyone here could ever make it work, including myself, given the utter lack of consequence which a capsuleers actions engender.

The real question is, how badly do the parties involve want a lasting peace? And are they prepared to make the necessary compromises to get there? With a few exceptions, the answer seems to be 'no', barring further developments, of course. Mostly, I'm just pointing out that, despite the source, the model isn't impossible, but highly unlikely without a lot of quid pro quo that none of us entitled sorts have any reason to consider.


The more likely model for relative peace, it seems to me, is becoming accustomed to the status quo. It is entirely possible that the current situation on Caldari Prime becomes the new norm for quite an extended period of time and stops being considered a lack of peace.

I agree, without reservation or addendum.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2014-03-13 11:35:55 UTC
Jace Sarice wrote:
Erys Charantes wrote:

At no point did I claim it would be easy, without massive headaches, or a great deal of need for both sides to step up and take ownership for their responsibilities. Complicated is a mild term, really. The first time either side lets hubris or ego get in the way, it would become a nightmare. I personally don't think anyone here could ever make it work, including myself, given the utter lack of consequence which a capsuleers actions engender.

The real question is, how badly do the parties involve want a lasting peace? And are they prepared to make the necessary compromises to get there? With a few exceptions, the answer seems to be 'no', barring further developments, of course. Mostly, I'm just pointing out that, despite the source, the model isn't impossible, but highly unlikely without a lot of quid pro quo that none of us entitled sorts have any reason to consider.


The more likely model for relative peace, it seems to me, is becoming accustomed to the status quo. It is entirely possible that the current situation on Caldari Prime becomes the new norm for quite an extended period of time and stops being considered a lack of peace.


The question is, how long will it take? A Gallentean Caldari Prime was the status quo for over a hundred years, long enough for two or three generations to be born and raised where that was how it was. And yet, that didnt do much for peace in the long run.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#123 - 2014-03-13 12:55:44 UTC
Jace Sarice wrote:

The more likely model for relative peace, it seems to me, is becoming accustomed to the status quo. It is entirely possible that the current situation on Caldari Prime becomes the new norm for quite an extended period of time and stops being considered a lack of peace.

But it is lack of peace, Mr. Sarice!
You see, about half of our planet is still under oppression of gallentean occupants.
Such status quo is straightforward shameful, and it was achieved by criminal methods.
We should stand firm and show these gallentean kakku that they can't do with OUR planet what THEY want.
We must bring to them, what they brought to us. And deal with them as they deserve.

WITH FIRE AND STEEL!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Jace Sarice
#124 - 2014-03-13 13:34:05 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

The question is, how long will it take? A Gallentean Caldari Prime was the status quo for over a hundred years, long enough for two or three generations to be born and raised where that was how it was. And yet, that didnt do much for peace in the long run.


There is no way of knowing, but there are two significant differences in the current situation: there are now areas of Caldari sovereignty on the planet itself instead of simply Caldari citizens living under Federation sovereignty and there are State corporations directly involved. Both of those things may allow for a more stable status quo. Obviously, we cannot predict if this arrangement will have long term stability - but it certainly seems to have the best shot at it.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#125 - 2014-03-13 15:01:49 UTC
Erys Charantes wrote:
No, I actually could see this working, with the following provisions...

Any CAPSULEER, which is all that this is really about, in the end, must have sufficient standings with both empires to enter 1.0 sovereign space belonging to both the State and Federation.

Both empires are obliged to defend the sovereignty of the entire system, not just their own planet, with sufficient military forces deployed to ensure security proactively (meaning that threats that are determined to be bound for Luminaire are to be engaged beforehand), with sufficient CONCORD monitoring to prevent any military adventurism with immediate effect (this goes for both sides).

Citizens of both powers (baseline) may move freely throughout the system, but are subject to the laws of the INDIVIDUAL empire in question, when on the planets or stations themselves. No protections or considerations are given to those who willfully violate these laws while on sovereign holdings, and trials are to be held by the governing body. The records of the crime, trial, and punishment are available to the other party at all times, however, for the sake of clarity and review.

At no time will known supporters of extremist organizations be allowed safe passage, support, or harborage, with any and all suspected incidents to be disclosed to the other party IMMEDIATELY, and dealt with accordingly by the respective and prudent use of available assets (Federal police on Gallente Prime, State forces on Caldari Prime, et cetera) with attached observation from the other party to ensure compliance. The organizations in question include all known pirate, terrorist, and cult groups, with enforcement and monitoring an unnegotiably mutual responsibility. Any effort to support such groups or their operations within Luminaire results in immediate nullification of the treaty, the body of which being submitted to CONCORD for review. No excuses, no tolerance. It's plain as day.


I agree, if and when the two goverments ever get to sitting down and talking about real and lasting peace, that the agreement about the security of both our homeworlds and the solar system may resemble something similiar to this.
Jace Sarice
#126 - 2014-03-13 15:09:24 UTC
TomHorn wrote:

I agree, if and when the two goverments ever get to sitting down and talking about real and lasting peace, that the agreement about the security of both our homeworlds and the solar system may resemble something similiar to this.


You are aware that under her described plan you would not be able to enter the system, correct? A neo-Provist that is a member of a corporation named after the Templis Dragonaurs is certainly considered a militant extremist, i.e. terrorist or terrorist supporter, by both State and Federation authorities and would not be able to enter the system under her plan.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#127 - 2014-03-13 15:42:16 UTC
Jace Sarice wrote:
TomHorn wrote:

I agree, if and when the two goverments ever get to sitting down and talking about real and lasting peace, that the agreement about the security of both our homeworlds and the solar system may resemble something similiar to this.


You are aware that under her described plan you would not be able to enter the system, correct? A neo-Provist that is a member of a corporation named after the Templis Dragonaurs is certainly considered a militant extremist, i.e. terrorist or terrorist supporter, by both State and Federation authorities and would not be able to enter the system under her plan.


What you say is partly correct i am a Provist. I have very good standing within the State, i have been allowed to join the militia and fight for the State. I only hold a bad standing with the Federation due to the war. If there war was an end to the war maybe there would be an armistice with standings gained during the war. They could be set neutral. If this was the case i would be allowed entry. My corporation is named after the Templis Dragonaurs, but im in no way a terrorist or a criminal.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#128 - 2014-03-13 16:10:17 UTC
Somehow, I doubt that "My corporation is named after the Templis Dragonaurs, but I'm not one myself" is likely to carry much weight when you ask to be exempted from the list of extremists.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Jace Sarice
#129 - 2014-03-13 16:17:04 UTC
TomHorn wrote:

What you say is partly correct i am a Provist. I have very good standing within the State, i have been allowed to join the militia and fight for the State. I only hold a bad standing with the Federation due to the war. If there war was an end to the war maybe there would be an armistice with standings gained during the war. They could be set neutral. If this was the case i would be allowed entry. My corporation is named after the Templis Dragonaurs, but im in no way a terrorist or a criminal.



Provists are considered criminals by the State. The CPD also no longer exists in an organizational sense, so you are technically a Provist supporter or Provist by ideology. Also, naming your corporation after terrorists means either you wish to support them, their views, or simply honor them. While I doubt your actions are relevant or effective enough to be considered a terrorist yourself, you certainly support them and wish to be publicly associated with them. Deal with the consequences.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2014-03-13 16:23:42 UTC
TomHorn wrote:


What you say is partly correct i am a Provist. I have very good standing within the State, i have been allowed to join the militia and fight for the State. I only hold a bad standing with the Federation due to the war. If there war was an end to the war maybe there would be an armistice with standings gained during the war. They could be set neutral. If this was the case i would be allowed entry. My corporation is named after the Templis Dragonaurs, but im in no way a terrorist or a criminal.



Why are you hiding your true beliefs?

TomHorn wrote:
We got to stop ***** footing around with these damn Gallentes. Mens Reppola and the other CEO's of the Mega Corporations their just to damn soft. They need to leave it us nationalists, provists, Templis Dragonaurs , we will get us into a real all out war with them, and set up in such a way that looks like its their fault. Its going to happen sooner or later so lets get on with it.We will storm into Luminaire kickem in the ass. Domesday Gallente Prime. We will get all those Gallente son of bitches of Caldari Prime ship off to Amar Empire as slave labour, or maybe hand them over to Nauplius for his goddam sacrifices. Thats what i would do, but nobody ever listens to me.


Cowards die in shame. Why do you pretend to be someone everyone know's you're not?

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#131 - 2014-03-13 16:35:45 UTC
Jace Sarice wrote:
TomHorn wrote:

What you say is partly correct i am a Provist. I have very good standing within the State, i have been allowed to join the militia and fight for the State. I only hold a bad standing with the Federation due to the war. If there war was an end to the war maybe there would be an armistice with standings gained during the war. They could be set neutral. If this was the case i would be allowed entry. My corporation is named after the Templis Dragonaurs, but im in no way a terrorist or a criminal.



Provists are considered criminals by the State. The CPD also no longer exists in an organizational sense, so you are technically a Provist supporter or Provist by ideology. Also, naming your corporation after terrorists means either you wish to support them, their views, or simply honor them. While I doubt your actions are relevant or effective enough to be considered a terrorist yourself, you certainly support them and wish to be publicly associated with them. Deal with the consequences.


Hopefully my affiliation with the provists wouldnt be problem. If it was obviously id like that bit of the agreement left out. One does not want to have to run the gauntlet every time one wants to visit home and see family.

Important part for me is that both empires together defend the solar system. Having our navy present in the solar system gives us the peace of mind that not only are we protecting the solar system, we are protecting home.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#132 - 2014-03-13 16:50:06 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Jace Sarice wrote:
TomHorn wrote:

What you say is partly correct i am a Provist. I have very good standing within the State, i have been allowed to join the militia and fight for the State. I only hold a bad standing with the Federation due to the war. If there war was an end to the war maybe there would be an armistice with standings gained during the war. They could be set neutral. If this was the case i would be allowed entry. My corporation is named after the Templis Dragonaurs, but im in no way a terrorist or a criminal.



Provists are considered criminals by the State. The CPD also no longer exists in an organizational sense, so you are technically a Provist supporter or Provist by ideology. Also, naming your corporation after terrorists means either you wish to support them, their views, or simply honor them. While I doubt your actions are relevant or effective enough to be considered a terrorist yourself, you certainly support them and wish to be publicly associated with them. Deal with the consequences.


Hopefully my affiliation with the provists wouldnt be problem. If it was obviously id like that bit of the agreement left out. One does not want to have to run the gauntlet every time one wants to visit home and see family.

Important part for me is that both empires together defend the solar system. Having our navy present in the solar system gives us the peace of mind that not only are we protecting the solar system, we are protecting home.

Like I said, we want duel sovereignty in Jita with all the rights that entails. Then we have a deal.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#133 - 2014-03-13 17:10:16 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Somehow, I doubt that "My corporation is named after the Templis Dragonaurs, but I'm not one myself" is likely to carry much weight when you ask to be exempted from the list of extremists.


Horn family members have been apart of the Templis Dragonaurs through out time. No current family members are apart of the organisation.

You remember Nouvelle Rouvenor Stitcher. Dark days back then for the Caldari. Horn family member took part in the attack. He was one of the men who actually planted the explosives. We have always considered them resistance fighters and always will.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2014-03-13 18:32:35 UTC
I love how TomHorn is now back to his former facade, complaining about how the Gallente are being unreasonable, and hoping desperately that we'll forget he said this:

TomHorn wrote:
We got to stop ***** footing around with these damn Gallentes. Mens Reppola and the other CEO's of the Mega Corporations their just to damn soft. They need to leave it us nationalists, provists, Templis Dragonaurs , we will get us into a real all out war with them, and set up in such a way that looks like its their fault. Its going to happen sooner or later so lets get on with it.We will storm into Luminaire kickem in the ass. Domesday Gallente Prime. We will get all those Gallente son of bitches of Caldari Prime ship off to Amar Empire as slave labour, or maybe hand them over to Nauplius for his goddam sacrifices. Thats what i would do, but nobody ever listens to me.

Protip, Tom: we aren't.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#135 - 2014-03-13 21:22:48 UTC
Jace Sarice wrote:

Provists are considered criminals by the State.

To be considered a criminal in the State you have to commit a crime.

Jace Sarice wrote:
Also, naming your corporation after terrorists

Dragonaurs are not terrorists. They are guerilla patriot organization.
It was shameful gallentean idea to call them 'terrorists', it was gone since the war has started. After that they were even openly hired for State business. Many of dragonaurs have a good crewmembers, that are more loyal and brave even than regular trained military personnel.

Jace Sarice wrote:
means either you wish to support them, their views, or simply honor them.

Which is a good thing, since they are patriots and still loyal to Caldari ideals.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#136 - 2014-03-13 22:04:49 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
they are patriots and still loyal to Caldari ideals.

You say this a lot, I do not think it means what you think it means.Straight

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#137 - 2014-03-13 22:18:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Diana Kim
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
they are patriots and still loyal to Caldari ideals.

You say this a lot, I do not think it means what you think it means.Straight

They fight for Caldari peoples and Caldari traditions, saving us from degenerating gallentean influence.
Maybe they aren't as professional as a regular army, but their enthusiasm in dealing with greatest enemy of the State and whole humanity, is really prominent and exemplary.

Oh, and...
Claudia Osyn wrote:

... I do not think...

I wouldn't expect thinking from a gallentean in the first place.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#138 - 2014-03-13 23:16:30 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
I love how TomHorn is now back to his former facade, complaining about how the Gallente are being unreasonable, and hoping desperately that we'll forget he said this:
TomHorn wrote:
We got to stop ***** footing around with these damn Gallentes. Mens Reppola and the other CEO's of the Mega Corporations their just to damn soft. They need to leave it us nationalists, provists, Templis Dragonaurs , we will get us into a real all out war with them, and set up in such a way that looks like its their fault. Its going to happen sooner or later so lets get on with it.We will storm into Luminaire kickem in the ass. Domesday Gallente Prime. We will get all those Gallente son of bitches of Caldari Prime ship off to Amar Empire as slave labour, or maybe hand them over to Nauplius for his goddam sacrifices. Thats what i would do, but nobody ever listens to me.


Protip, Tom: we aren't.


That very comment by Mr. Horn is more than enough evidence to me that he doesn't really desire a so-called dual sovereignty solution. He knows very well that his original accusations against the Federation Navy are false and misleading.
TomHorn wrote:
Many Caldari citizens have to run the gauntlet of trying to evade the Federation navy trying to kill them...


Others and myself have addressed this accusation already, so I will not repeat it at this time.

A dual sovereignty treaty in Luminaire would not bring peace or further security; it would bring heightened military tension to the heart of Federation Space. It would be an open invitation to extremists and terrorists. That could possibly allow for provocateurs to set up the Federation Navy, forcing them into the scenario of violating various treaties, and escalating into a full scale military engagement between Federation and State forces. I admit this is worst case speculation, however it is not a possibility we should turn a blind eye to.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#139 - 2014-03-13 23:20:23 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
they are patriots and still loyal to Caldari ideals.

You say this a lot, I do not think it means what you think it means.Straight

They want to mindlessly slaughter all gallente down to the last child like good drones should
*fixed*
Oh, and...
Claudia Osyn wrote:

... I do not think...

I wouldn't expect thinking from a gallentean in the first place.

That's nice sweetie, you keep thinking that.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#140 - 2014-03-14 02:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Agiri Falken
TomHorn wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
Somehow, I doubt that "My corporation is named after the Templis Dragonaurs, but I'm not one myself" is likely to carry much weight when you ask to be exempted from the list of extremists.


Horn family members have been apart of the Templis Dragonaurs through out time. No current family members are apart of the organisation.

You remember Nouvelle Rouvenor Stitcher. Dark days back then for the Caldari. Horn family member took part in the attack. He was one of the men who actually planted the explosives. We have always considered them resistance fighters and always will.


Let me put this simply. Nobody gives a damn how a Dragonaur feels about Dragonaurs. Don't like that people treat your "proud" history of murdering civilians with the disdain you've earned? Tough. Live with it. You picked your side, now go whimper about what you want to people who care.