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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Dual sovereignty for Luminaire solar system Gallente/Caldari

Author
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#221 - 2014-03-17 12:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
That's your excuse? "I got upset?"

You got upset about not having a very strong argument, so you advocated the wholesale genocide of an entire planetary population and the sale of half of another into slavery? Oh, and not to mention a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and outright frame the Federation as the aggressors in a war escalation?

If you're prone to that sort of paroxysm of rage whenever anyone beats you in a debate, I don't think you're in any position to whine about people being unreasonable.


No, i was not upset. You wanted a reaction like that and i gave it you. Thats what you wanted. The truth is if i was in power no , i would not do those things, it is not in my make up. I have not commited genocide and i would not commit genocide. Your goverment has done those things. There is big difference right there. Stop blaming us.

Reform yourselves first, your people your goverments to stop hating us, through education. Then come back to us once you have made those reforms and your citizens & goverment no longer hate us, and if we still hate you back then blame us ask us to reform. Until you reform yourselves first stop blaming us for your problems status quo will remain.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#222 - 2014-03-17 12:34:03 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
No, i was not upset. You wanted a reaction like that and i gave it you. Thats what you wanted. The truth is if i was in power no , i would not do those things, it is not in my make up. I have not commited genocide and i would not commit genocide.

What a pathetic backpedal, even for a Provist. This was not a reaction we desired, nor did we ever ask for it. We expected it, we weren't surprised by it, but it was entirely your choice to wig out and start advocating genocide. And really, after all the two-faced mendacity we've seen from you in the rest of the thread, do you really expect us to believe you wouldn't go through with those things in a fit of pique if you had it within your power to do so?

As for the rest of your post, you are once again repeating empty, provably false aphorisms as if they'll suddenly stop being untrue. The Federation's problem isn't with the Caldari. It's with the Provists and the people who think like them. You keep repeating the same things and they keep being false.

It's like talking to a brick wall, without the pleasant silence one receives after finishing their statement.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Cuci Cairi
#223 - 2014-03-17 13:30:50 UTC
TomHorn wrote:

No, i was not upset. You wanted a reaction like that and i gave it you. Thats what you wanted. The truth is if i was in power no , i would not do those things, it is not in my make up. I have not commited genocide and i would not commit genocide. Your goverment has done those things. There is big difference right there. Stop blaming us.

Reform yourselves first, your people your goverments to stop hating us, through education. Then come back to us once you have made those reforms and your citizens & goverment no longer hate us, and if we still hate you back then blame us ask us to reform. Until you reform yourselves first stop blaming us for your problems status quo will remain.


Quit while you're ahead. Well, you're not ahead. But more ahead than you will be. Quitting is the point, really.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#224 - 2014-03-17 13:40:34 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
What a pathetic backpedal, even for a Provist. This was not a reaction we desired, nor did we ever ask for it. We expected it, we weren't surprised by it, but it was entirely your choice to wig out and start advocating genocide. And really, after all the two-faced mendacity we've seen from you in the rest of the thread, do you really expect us to believe you wouldn't go through with those things in a fit of pique if you had it within your power to do so?


Thats the truth Andreus, you may not like it, but its the truth. I know the only truth you like to hear is your own revisionist propganda. All the time Heth and the provists were in power they never commited genocide againt you. You can keep saying you feared it they never did it.

The only thing they did , that made you vehmently hate them was take our homeworld off you after 200 years left titan parked, as a defensive measure to protect our planet.

Those that hate us like you Fred Fred , Stitcher , Roden , Blaque would say it was threat, had to be removed. All the time it was there it never attacked your home planet Gallente prime , any of your stations, any of your citizens , capsuleers who had bad standings towards Caldari or anything of Gallente sovereignty in the solar system. It was just there to protect our homeplanet, from an orbital attack or assault by the Federation to retake our homeworld off us again, which Heth knew would come.

When the assault came titan was destroyed and that was the begining of the end of the Heth regime.
Cuci Cairi
#225 - 2014-03-17 13:46:13 UTC
TomHorn wrote:

When the assault came titan was destroyed and that was the begining of the end of the Heth regime.


His own incompetence was his end. Nobody continues to claim he was remotely intelligent or capable. His ability to make speeches was his only talent, and even that skill left him rather quickly.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#226 - 2014-03-17 15:04:05 UTC
TomHorn wrote:

Those that hate us like you Fred Fred , Stitcher , Roden , Blaque would say it was threat, had to be removed. All the time it was there it never attacked your home planet Gallente prime , any of your stations, any of your citizens , capsuleers who had bad standings towards Caldari or anything of Gallente sovereignty in the solar system. It was just there to protect our homeplanet, from an orbital attack or assault by the Federation to retake our homeworld off us again, which Heth knew would come.

And that was our mistake.
We should have attacked them and bring onto them what they brought on us, only then they could understand us.
Until then, unfortunately, talking to them might be entertaining, but it will bring no effect, they think only about themselves.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#227 - 2014-03-17 15:27:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
TomHorn wrote:


The only thing they did , that made you vehmently hate them was take our homeworld off you after 200 years left titan parked, as a defensive measure to protect our planet.


Actually, I hate Provist because you lot cut my family in half (I am half Deteis you know), tried to turn my friends against me, and may have robbed me of the most important person in my life.

Threatening the total annihilation of my homeworld, persecuting my people, and ruining 200 years of peace and mutual prosperity are honestly only secondary issues of mine.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#228 - 2014-03-17 15:45:08 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
TomHorn wrote:


The only thing they did , that made you vehmently hate them was take our homeworld off you after 200 years left titan parked, as a defensive measure to protect our planet.


Actually, I hate Provist because you lot cut my family in half (I am half Deteis you know), tried to turn my friends against me, and may have robbed me of the most important person in my life.

Threatening the total annihilation of my homeworld, persecuting my people, and ruining 200 years of peace and mutual prosperity are honestly only secondary issues of mine.


My heart bleeds for you Fred. You ruined 200 years of peace when one of your Admirals rammed FNS Wandering Saint a Nyx class mothership into Caldari space station killing more than 600 thousand people.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#229 - 2014-03-17 15:45:24 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
TomHorn wrote:


The only thing they did , that made you vehmently hate them was take our homeworld off you after 200 years left titan parked, as a defensive measure to protect our planet.


Actually, I hate Provist because you lot cut my family in half (I am half Deteis you know), tried to turn my friends against me, and may have robbed me of the most important person in my life.

Threatening the total annihilation of my homeworld, persecuting my people, and ruining 200 years of peace and mutual prosperity are honestly only secondary issues of mine.

While we only threat with it, you do it.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#230 - 2014-03-17 15:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Diana Kim
TomHorn wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
TomHorn wrote:


The only thing they did , that made you vehmently hate them was take our homeworld off you after 200 years left titan parked, as a defensive measure to protect our planet.


Actually, I hate Provist because you lot cut my family in half (I am half Deteis you know), tried to turn my friends against me, and may have robbed me of the most important person in my life.

Threatening the total annihilation of my homeworld, persecuting my people, and ruining 200 years of peace and mutual prosperity are honestly only secondary issues of mine.


My heart bleeds for you Fred. You ruined 200 years of peace when one of your Admirals rammed FNS Wandering Saint a Nyx class mothership into Caldari space station killing more than 600 thousand people.

This, and, the war was provoked, because GALLENTEANS were defacing Caldari relics on Caldari Prime and started civil disorder on the planet, targeting against Caldari population.
We came not only to return our ancestral home, but to save our civilians from gallentean savagery.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2014-03-17 16:21:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
TomHorn wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
TomHorn wrote:


The only thing they did , that made you vehmently hate them was take our homeworld off you after 200 years left titan parked, as a defensive measure to protect our planet.


Actually, I hate Provist because you lot cut my family in half (I am half Deteis you know), tried to turn my friends against me, and may have robbed me of the most important person in my life.

Threatening the total annihilation of my homeworld, persecuting my people, and ruining 200 years of peace and mutual prosperity are honestly only secondary issues of mine.


My heart bleeds for you Fred. You ruined 200 years of peace when one of your Admirals rammed FNS Wandering Saint a Nyx class mothership into Caldari space station killing more than 600 thousand people.


Provist- Condemning trillions of people for the actions of one man since YC110.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#232 - 2014-03-17 18:01:55 UTC
Tell us, Pilot Horn...
Which...

TomHorn wrote:
We got to stop ***** footing around with these damn Gallentes.Mens Reppola and the other CEO's of the Mega Corporations their just to damn soft. They need to leave it us nationalists, provists, Templis Dragonaurs , we will get us into a real all out war with them, and set up in such a way that looks like its their fault. Its going to happen sooner or later so lets get on with it.We will storm into Luminaire kickem in the ass. Domesday Gallente Prime. We will get all those Gallente son of bitches of Caldari Prime ship off to Amar Empire as slave labour, or maybe hand them over to Nauplius for his goddam sacrifices. Thats what i would do, but nobody ever listens to me.


..is it?

TomHorn wrote:

No, i was not upset. You wanted a reaction like that and i gave it you. Thats what you wanted. The truth is if i was in power no , i would not do those things, it is not in my make up. I have not commited genocide and i would not commit genocide. Your goverment has done those things. There is big difference right there. Stop blaming us.

Reform yourselves first, your people your goverments to stop hating us, through education. Then come back to us once you have made those reforms and your citizens & goverment no longer hate us, and if we still hate you back then blame us ask us to reform. Until you reform yourselves first stop blaming us for your problems status quo will remain.


What is your true motivation?

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#233 - 2014-03-17 18:17:01 UTC
That's a question you'll have to ask twice.

Once for each of his two faces.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#234 - 2014-03-17 19:00:46 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
On March 22nd, Battle of Luminaire Memorial will be held. There will be alot of pomp and ceremony, fireworks, flypasts. Some members of the Federation goverment may turn up Roden , Blaque. The so called good Caldari with their good Federation standings Stitcher, and Andreus Fred Fred maybe there if not planetside. You would think there will be some speeches.

They will talk about the "darling" Admiral Yanala and "the monster" Tibus Heth.

They will talk weasel words about Admiral Yanala, how they didn't want to destroy the titan, but they were left with no choice. Then they will tell you that she was hero. What she was, was a patriot , if she was alive today she would condem them for their actions, call them traitors for colluding with the enemy. That i have no doubt in my mind.

Then they will talk about "the monster" Tibus Heth congratulate themselves slap each other on the back for ending Heth's reign.
They called him many names during his reign Madman, insane, incompetent, unintelligent, the monster. Heth's legacy was to achieve many things that affected the trillions of State citizens for the better.

When Heth came to power, he found the CEO's of the mega corporations and top executives had created meritocracy of favourtism, neoptism. Finding nepotism, spawned inefficiency all over the State, and had created an ailing and out dated system.
Heth overhauled this old system of the CEO's, mega corp executives, created new modern system, that the press dubbed the New Meritocracy.

Heth was a man of the people , he favoured the workers rather than the CEO's or the exectuvies. He put in place reforms that would benefit the workers, intended to bring Caldari State back to its rightful place as a commercial, industrial and military success. Rooted out those undeserving of their positions and installed people who had truly earned the right to be there. Heth's reforms reached into every sector of corporate activity. He created programs that made sure people received adequate compensation for hard work, in the form of annual leave and early retirement. He greatly increased funding for education and re education initiatives. He promoted worker summits wherein individual ingenuity was given an outlet. The main goal to make sure that no matter which rung on the ladder a person occupies, they stand at least a fighting chance of making it to the rung above them provided they truly deserve it. Under the new system social status was no obstacle to advancement.

Heth's reforms created new prosperity for the trillions of workers of the State, real benefits they could feel, the money in their pockets, better life for their famalies brighter future.

This legacy and the benefits to the trillions of State workers continues to this day.

Heth's foreign policy was one of economic success and strong military. His diplomacy was the military. He knew the futility in diplomacy with the federation and especially this goverment, of Roden & Blaque. His diplomacy table the gunboat.

His success in foreign policy to bring back the homeworld to the State after 200 years of being under the jack boot of the Federation, remove Federation control on the planet, replace it with our own. Affecting the billions of Caldari citizens on the planet, brough them home.

Achieved all this while the CEO's, top executives of the most of mega corporations conspired and knived against him, and if operation highlander is to be believed which included collusion by some with the Federation.

We could of achieved so much more if we had worked together rather than agaisnt each other. CEO's and the top executives they just didnt like him. Jealousy, didnt agree with his foreign policy, maybe concerned for their own individual mega corparations and power.

On 22nd March i will raise my glass drink a toast and remember a patriot State Executor Tibus Heth Kirjuun his legacy in domestic and foreign policy affected the trillions of State citizens for the better.

Im sure there will be trillions of State citizens who will do the same, they know what Heth's short legacy has done for them. they can feel the benefits of his domesctic and foreign policy. Im sure many still wish he was still with us as State Executor. Strong Winds Tibus Heth.

Domestic policy
i Created the meritocracy of merit
ii reforms that benefited the trillions of workers in the State. Still continues to benefit them today.

Foreign Policy
i Returned the homeworld to the State and removed the jackboot of the Federation control after 200 years of occupation.
Cuci Cairi
#235 - 2014-03-17 19:06:32 UTC
TomHorn wrote:

i Returned the homeworld to the State and removed the jackboot of the Federation control after 200 years of occupation.


You are aware that the system and most of the planet is still part of the Federation, right?

And about Heth, you can rest assured that those who view the State as a theoretical threat also wish he was still in control given the much weaker the State would become if it were true. But more sane minds have finally prevailed, which provides possibilities of stability.

It is fortunate your own fellow citizens don't take you anymore seriously than we do.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#236 - 2014-03-17 19:19:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
I rarely indulge in petty schadenfreude, but Provists crying crocodile tears over their ruined dreams of conquest and destruction is music to my ears.

You bought and paid for your failures. The State rejected you. Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#237 - 2014-03-17 23:07:18 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Those that hate us like you Fred Fred , Stitcher , Roden , Blaque would say it was threat, had to be removed.


Hold on there, my objections to the CPD had nothing to do with any threat of Gallentean genocide, real or imagined, nor with being any sort of pro-Federation activist.

They had everything to do with the way that the Provist movement stood in direct opposition to everything I had ever been taught that the State was about, was contrary to Caldari morality and ethics as I understood them, and was irreconcilable with the vision of a meritocratic state founded on the principles of corporate competition and capitalism that I literally shed my blood to defend and serve.

When I was a young man, I swore an oath to protect the State and its citizens from all threats, external and internal alike. Heth and the Provists were such a threat, and the most insidious and dangerous kind at that.

They were our friends, cousins and colleagues. they were Heiian-driven Caldari who honestly believed that they were acting in the State's interests, even while they ripped it apart to build a fortress against the foe they hated and feared. Their xenophobia drove them to destroy the very thing they were convinced they were trying to preserve.

I don't HATE the Provists - I just think they were misguided, fanatical and utterly wrong. Does the doctor who advises you to lay off the alcohol for the sake of your liver hate drinkers? Does the CorpSec officer who orders you home because you're stumbling drunk doing so because he hates you, or out of concern for your safety and that of others?

Provism is an activity taken to excess, it's an intoxicating political philosophy adopted for perfectly acceptable reasons but which by degrees turns bad until you've gone from a proud patriot to a twisted paranoid mockery of a good citizen. It replaces healthy national pride with fear and xenophobia. It sought to replace Corporate Meritocracy with a dictatorship. It put all its faith into its worst victim, like giving the franchise rights of a liquor store chain to a terminal addict.

Whether the Provists would, given the option, have committed a genocide is irrelevant - there are enough crimes they DID commit for any loyal Caldari to be perfectly justified in opposing the whole movement and roundly criticizing the few Provists who remain and are stupid enough to continue to vomit out their party line.

Straighten up, dry out, and learn what it means to be Caldari again, rather than a Provist.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#238 - 2014-03-18 12:11:59 UTC
Cuci Cairi wrote:

You are aware that the system and most of the planet is still part of the Federation, right?

In fact, MOST of the planet is ours, Gallentean oppressors occupy less than a half of our planet.
But not for long. We will push gallentean scum away and they will pay for their crimes with their blood.

Cuci Cairi wrote:

And about Heth, you can rest assured that those who view the State as a theoretical threat also wish he was still in control given the much weaker the State would become if it were true. But more sane minds have finally prevailed, which provides possibilities of stability.

More sane minds will prevail, when the State will be united once again, and smash Federation coward swines down to ground with mighty Caldari fist.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#239 - 2014-03-18 12:24:12 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

Hold on there, my objections to the CPD had nothing to do with any threat of Gallentean genocide, real or imagined, nor with being any sort of pro-Federation activist.

Objections aside, you have committed actions of treason.
Attacking Caldari people and patriots, who were departing to fight the Federation itself, is pro-Federation activity.

Stitcher wrote:

They had everything to do with the way that the Provist movement stood in direct opposition to everything I had ever been taught that the State was about, was contrary to Caldari morality and ethics as I understood them, and was irreconcilable with the vision of a meritocratic state founded on the principles of corporate competition and capitalism that I literally shed my blood to defend and serve.

In fact, Provist movement stood for Caldari morality, ethics, and only because of Provists we have now real meritocracy instead of nepotism.
The problem is that they didn't stand for your vision of Caldari, which is, actually, not Caldari at all. You have forgotten Caldari history and our ideals for short-sighted moneymaking and gallentean propaganda. And now you are hiding in your wormhole.

Stitcher wrote:

When I was a young man, I swore an oath to protect the State and its citizens from all threats, external and internal alike.

And you broke it, when you stood on Gallente side by attacking Provists, they were departing to attack the Federation.

Stitcher wrote:

Heth and the Provists were such a threat, and the most insidious and dangerous kind at that.

Threat they were. But only to the Federation and gallentean bootlickers.

Stitcher wrote:

Provism is an activity taken to excess, it's an intoxicating political philosophy adopted for perfectly acceptable reasons but which by degrees turns bad until you've gone from a proud patriot to a twisted paranoid mockery of a good citizen. It replaces healthy national pride with fear and xenophobia. It sought to replace Corporate Meritocracy with a dictatorship. It put all its faith into its worst victim, like giving the franchise rights of a liquor store chain to a terminal addict.

And here Mr. Stitcher goes to rants and insults those, who put the State on the legs from the knees.
You still haven't learned the lesson what does it mean to be a good citizen.
My door is still open for you.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Cuci Cairi
#240 - 2014-03-18 13:28:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Cuci Cairi
Stitcher wrote:
Does the doctor who advises you to lay off the alcohol for the sake of your liver hate drinkers? Does the CorpSec officer who orders you home because you're stumbling drunk doing so because he hates you, or out of concern for your safety and that of others?

Provism is an activity taken to excess, it's an intoxicating political philosophy adopted for perfectly acceptable reasons but which by degrees turns bad until you've gone from a proud patriot to a twisted paranoid mockery of a good citizen. It replaces healthy national pride with fear and xenophobia. It sought to replace Corporate Meritocracy with a dictatorship. It put all its faith into its worst victim, like giving the franchise rights of a liquor store chain to a terminal addict.


Is it not true that there is moderation in drinking, but by definition there is no longer moderation in the term "Provist?" Heth is gone and all know his incompetence and insanity before he left. To continue to try to be a Provist is not "taking something to excess," but an inexcusable choice in itself is it not? Given what everyone knows about Heth and the CPD, as well as your own State declaring the CPD criminals, it seems to suggest that it isn't an "activity taken to excess" but an excess in and of itself.

Sometimes, broad and sweeping judgements without reservation are the correct choice. And since you seem to have done that in the other parts of your post, perhaps I am misinterpreting this analogy of yours. I fail to see what you could consider neo-Provists an "excess" of, except perhaps excessive delusion.