These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dual sovereignty for Luminaire solar system Gallente/Caldari

Author
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#201 - 2014-03-16 22:25:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Noden Vorpalstar
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Well, it seems the Caldari desire to return to their Homeworld completely blindsided Federal Patriots here, then? They had no idea that was our chief demand for an end to the war, or possibly our only demand other than our desire to be left alone?

Honestly, you all go on and on about how insane Diana Kim is, but here's the truth. I'm a Caldari Patriot telling you I don't need sovereignty in the Luminaire system. I don't need to kick every Gallente off Caldari Prime. I don't need to conquer Federal systems leading up Luminaire and....

No. I'm still the blind and unreasonable one. It's just like Diana Kim said it would be - move to a position of compromise and those of you here who fly the green will simply redraw the line again.

And like certain Provists, you're putting words into our mouths and intentionally misrepresenting our statements.

I'm usually more respectful when I talk to State loyalists, because I hold a great deal of respect for the Caldari people, but let's be crystal clear about something:

The Caldari do not need Caldari Prime.

Yes, the Caldari want Caldari Prime. The Caldari deserve Caldari Prime, should have Caldari Prime, have an entirely just claim to Caldari Prime, but you do not need Caldari Prime to be Caldari, any more than the Gallente need Gallente Prime to be Gallente or I need Intaki Prime to be Intaki. The Caldari survived two hundred years without Caldari Prime, and all the Caldari born since then who've never even seen Caldari Prime in person are no less Caldari than the first of the Raata. I want Caldari Prime to be back in the hands of the State just as much as any Civire, Deteis or Achuran, but I am also aware that your people do not need Caldari Prime to survive.

You did not need Caldari Prime to remain Caldari, and you did not need to start this war, almost single-handedly ruining every effort that has been made in the last hundred years to bridge the yawning divide of enmity and distrust between our two nations to get it back. You did not need to act like the fact that returning Caldari Prime to Caldari control isn't simply a matter of changing a few signposts and CONCORD registry files is a grievous personal insult to every single Caldari. You did not need to occupy my homeworld. You did not need to end the lives of thousands of Federal Navymen. You most certainly did not need to continue that war past the point at which Caldari Prime was returned to you.

You didn't need to do any of this. You wanted to. You let the traitor Heth, obsessed only with his own self-aggrandisement, tell you that war with the Federation - a war that would kill just as many of your people as it would mine - was the only option. You let the Provists tell you that war and death was preferable to peace because a relic of your people's past - no matter how important it is to your culture - didn't belong to you. You let them goad you into killing tens of thousands of our people in an unprovoked surprise attack for which you must have known we would eventually retaliate. Heth didn't give you back Caldari Prime - he merely stole it from the people who stole it from you, knowing that he couldn't possibly hold it forever. For five years he slowly rotted the State from the inside out, and for what? For a homeworld most of the people fighting his war for him could never even get to in person.

Katrina definitely hit the nail on the head when she said that the Federation has very serious trust issues with the State even after Heth was denounced by the Caldari people and condemned by the CEP - we find it unsettling to know that he was ever able to rise to power in the first place.

But you know what the worst part about this is for me, Pieter?

It's not that I'm angry at the Provists. I'm not. They're pitiful. They don't deserve the investment of my emotional energy that anger would require. What little lingering support for them there is among baseliners dwindles steadily and the few IGS posters that still cling to them become more and more desperate, delusional and pathetic with every passing day. In many cases it's not even worth talking to them, because all you'll get is the same demonstrably untrue aphorisms on infinite loop.

You know who I'm angry at, Pieter? I'm angry at the rest of you.

We always knew the Provists were no good. But you, Pieter? You and your kin are honourable, you're steadfast and you're fiercely loyal to the people you hold dear. In my mind, the Caldari should be a constant reminder to the Federation of their greatest failure - we could have been better. We should have been better, to you and to ourselves. We lost the love of people who should have been our brothers, and we lost the strength you could have given us. The Caldari State should be an example for the Federation to aspire to, and our sordid shared history a warning to our nation not to repeat its past mistakes. By letting Heth dupe you for five years, you've given more credence to all the people who call the State untrustworthy, backstabbing corporate scumbags more credence than any U-Nat propagandist could ever hope for.

So in summary, Pieter - your desire to return to your Homeworld? Completely justifiable. What you did to us and to yourselves to fulfil that desire? Blind and unreasonable.


Mr. Ixiris, I'm certain there are a few finer points which you, and I would disagree on. I believe that is what makes the Federation so great, it is a shining example of our freedom, and makes her worth sustaining and defending.

In short, very well said.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#202 - 2014-03-16 22:39:11 UTC
On the flipside however, there were actions that the federation took that were less then honerable as well. In order for this conflict to come to an end, we need people on both sides to stop flaunting these as calls to war and view them as lessons in just how foolish the whole of humanity can be. Instead we keep perpetuating these events and the conflict never resolves.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#203 - 2014-03-16 22:40:47 UTC
That's my point.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2014-03-16 22:54:07 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
*Insert one of the most well said things ever said so well


Seriously, that needs to be read by EVERY Gallente and Caldari.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#205 - 2014-03-17 01:46:27 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Well, it seems the Caldari desire to return to their Homeworld completely blindsided Federal Patriots here, then? They had no idea that was our chief demand for an end to the war, or possibly our only demand other than our desire to be left alone?

Honestly, you all go on and on about how insane Diana Kim is, but here's the truth. I'm a Caldari Patriot telling you I don't need sovereignty in the Luminaire system. I don't need to kick every Gallente off Caldari Prime. I don't need to conquer Federal systems leading up Luminaire and....

No. I'm still the blind and unreasonable one. It's just like Diana Kim said it would be - move to a position of compromise and those of you here who fly the green will simply redraw the line again.

Pieter you know this is not true and yet you speak it.

How can you not see that Mr. Horns comments give our fears voice.

You should heed your kin, her insights are deeper than your own regarding “our”mind.

Katrina Oniseki wrote:
For five years they controlled State policy. For five years they taught the Federation a brand new lesson: Home is not all the Caldari seek.

Your “need” has no end.

Part, then the planet as a whole, then the system and so on….

Judge us then as you judge yourself.

We understand what you “say” you want Pieter, but often it isn't what you ask for, but how.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#206 - 2014-03-17 02:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
Andreus and Fred Fred they are the propaganda machine for the Federation and along with the Caldari liberal capsuleers who are also anti Heth, they have done excellent job over his reign castigating him in bad light. For months they say to the liberals, those in middle or who havent made up the mind, you are the good Caldari we are for you we can work with you. Remove Heth and we can work together. Of course they want to remove Heth he was seen as a grave threat to the Federation.

Heth has gone, we are talking now amongst ourselves, see your reaction. Will you negotiate, comprimise, will try to look at things from our side. You are as hardlined now as when Heth was in power. We hear you loud and clear. Many of you Gallente have give the same answer Absurd, No, no, NO and finally NO.

Your reaction to the deal on the ground on Caldari Prime. We should be grateful to the Senate for them letting us keep half control of the planet.

Your solution to Caldari capsuleers who are attacked by the Fed navy in Luminaire. Remove yourself from the the war, work with Federation corporations, you will gain the necessary standings required. Those caldari we like already have good standing with us.If we all did that we would lose the on going war. All the zones would cede into the Federation. Hardly reasonable or acceptable solution for the Caldari.

Where is your gratitude, where is your thanks to those Caldari who helped you remove Heth. Thanks for your help for removing Heth but there are still no good deals for you the Caldari , you should be grateful for what you have.
Jace Sarice
#207 - 2014-03-17 02:37:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jace Sarice
James Syagrius wrote:

How can you not see that Mr. Horns comments give our fears voice.


If you took someone like him remotely seriously, you are either demonstrating astounding ignorance or disingenuous fear. It is readily apparent that he is nothing but an attention whore and is far out of step with the vast majority of Caldari.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#208 - 2014-03-17 02:40:37 UTC
First of all, Andreus, I forgot how well you can speak when the spirit seizes you. That was very well said, very well indeed. And James, do you think I want to live in a cluster where Diana Kim is right and I'm wrong? Perhaps what I said wasn't logically supported to the extent it could have been, but it was very much from the heart.

I feel marginalised in my own community - for the last year all I have seen is the Federation on the offensive, crowing about their gains when the pendulum is with them, scorched earth and booby traps when it isn't. Using their strength like a blunt instrument because they can - even though their decision to storm the Shiigeru arguably cost many more lives than it ever could have saved.

The best of us die. The rest of us go on. It makes me heartsick.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2014-03-17 09:52:35 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
First of all, Andreus, I forgot how well you can speak when the spirit seizes you. That was very well said, very well indeed.

You do me a great honour by saying that, Pieter. Thank you. Thank you indeed.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I feel marginalised in my own community - for the last year all I have seen is the Federation on the offensive, crowing about their gains when the pendulum is with them, scorched earth and booby traps when it isn't. Using their strength like a blunt instrument because they can - even though their decision to storm the Shiigeru arguably cost many more lives than it ever could have saved.

The best of us die. The rest of us go on. It makes me heartsick.

Do not think that when I criticise the Caldari State for starting this war I am trying to absolve the Federation of all responsibility for this war's atrocities. Admiral Noir crashed a Nyx into Ishukone's headquarters, and though we detested the act and did not support or condone it in any way, he was a member of our armed forces. Even if the State started the war, Roden, Blaque and Gaterau all profit from its continuation.

No-one is in the right in this war, Pieter, and that's why I want it to end.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#210 - 2014-03-17 09:59:37 UTC
Andreus does a speak well, write well, but what a load of propoganda and bull he has written.

You do not need Caldari Prime to remain Caldari. You do not need Caldari prime to be Gallente. We have been without Caldari Prime for the last 200 years. So why dont you just give it us back, let us have control. Why dont you just go without it. Why do you need to have it so much

We did not need to start the war. Blames us for the war . They started the war.

Almost single-handedly ruining every effort that has been made in the last hundred years to bridge the yawning divide of enmity and distrust between our two nations to get it back. There has been no effort in the last hundred years by the Senate or Federation to bridge the divide between our nations .

You did not need to act like the fact that returning Caldari Prime to Caldari control isn't simply a matter of changing a few signposts and CONCORD registry files is a grievous personal insult to every single Caldari. Says retaking our homeworld, removing Federation control for our people is like changing sign posts registry files at concord and is insult to the Caldari people. Are you serious ! i nearly fell out of my chair laughing.

You did not need to end the lives of thousands of Federal Navymen. You most certainly did not need to continue that war past the point at which Caldari Prime was returned to you. The loss of your Federal navymen is down to your own goverment and senate. How can we end the war when your goverment will not negotiate with us.

Katrina definitely hit the nail on the head when she said that the Federation has very serious trust issues with the State even after Heth was denounced by the Caldari people and condemned by the CEP - we find it unsettling to know that he was ever able to rise to power in the first place. We have serious trust issues with the Federation. We had them when Heth was in power and we still have them now that he is gone. We find it unsettling that a goverment like Roden and Mentas Blaque was voted in to power by your citizens.

He goes on about Heth and war death that is all our fault. Dosent mention the death squads his own goverment sent onto Caldari planets last year which committed acts of genocide against the caldari people.

Lastly Pieter he blames you for everything that has happened to them.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#211 - 2014-03-17 10:10:57 UTC
Horn, you lost this debate the moment you started it, and ever since you've just been digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole.

Everything you've said is inherently two-faced - you call the Federation unreasonable for not making any effort towards peace, and then you burst out into a tirade like this:

TomHorn wrote:
We got to stop ***** footing around with these damn Gallentes. Mens Reppola and the other CEO's of the Mega Corporations their just to damn soft. They need to leave it us nationalists, provists, Templis Dragonaurs , we will get us into a real all out war with them, and set up in such a way that looks like its their fault. Its going to happen sooner or later so lets get on with it.We will storm into Luminaire kickem in the ass. Domesday Gallente Prime. We will get all those Gallente son of bitches of Caldari Prime ship off to Amar Empire as slave labour, or maybe hand them over to Nauplius for his goddam sacrifices. Thats what i would do, but nobody ever listens to me.

Then you continue to whine about how people who are more eloquent than you are making points that are better-received and paid more respect.

You outright affirm that you are a Provist and Heth supporter:

TomHorn wrote:
What you say is partly correct i am a Provist. I have very good standing within the State, i have been allowed to join the militia and fight for the State. I only hold a bad standing with the Federation due to the war. If there war was an end to the war maybe there would be an armistice with standings gained during the war. They could be set neutral. If this was the case i would be allowed entry. My corporation is named after the Templis Dragonaurs, but im in no way a terrorist or a criminal.

[...]

Horn family members have been apart of the Templis Dragonaurs through out time. No current family members are apart of the organisation.

You remember Nouvelle Rouvenor Stitcher. Dark days back then for the Caldari. Horn family member took part in the attack. He was one of the men who actually planted the explosives. We have always considered them resistance fighters and always will.


... but then you say something like this:

TomHorn wrote:
Where is your gratitude, where is your thanks to those Caldari who helped you remove Heth. Thanks for your help for removing Heth but there are still no good deals for you the Caldari , you should be grateful for what you have.

So a Provist and Heth supporter is saying that we should be thankful for the countrymen he directly opposed? What a farce.

Guess what, Horn? It turns out no-one on either sides of the border has much time for a guy who changes his positions every single post just so he can try and score points in a debate that was already lost the moment it saw the light of day.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#212 - 2014-03-17 10:19:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Diana Kim
Andreus Ixiris wrote:


The Caldari do not need Caldari Prime.


I would answer to other crap you put there, pouring out your delusions, but really, it would be just a waste of time. Instead, i answer only on this one, and only with this:

THE GALLENTE DO NOT NEED TO LIVE.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#213 - 2014-03-17 11:01:23 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
Thats not my position Andreus im a Heth supporter. All im getting at, is you asked for the help of Caldari. Some heard the call and helped you remove Heth. Heth has gone all im saying is your stance towards us has not changed any. Your has hardline agaisnt the Caldari now as when he was in power.

Your one man in a Federation of trillions. Your people citizens hate us. They have hated us since we cede. They hated us then they hate us now and they will hate us in the future. Your previous goverments hated us, this one hates us, future ones will hate us.

This goverment sent death squads to commit genocide against Caldari on Caldari planets. Menats Blaque has revised the curriculum in the schools to paint the Caldari in bad light in history of our people. Things are not going to get better. You blame us constantly , when you yourselves are just like us if not worse. Heth never used death squads comitted genocide agaisnt the Federation people.

You want peace. You need to reform yoursleves and your people from the inside out. From the inside out. Not send death squads to committ genocide agaisnt us. Not to teach your future generations lies about us.

When we see those reforms and the change in attitude towards us we will know you are genuine. The reforms you are making , are ones that are opposite to this will keep us hating each other. status quo.

Like i said to Fed Fred earlier. You reep what you sow. So will it be done. His reply was i need to only look into the mirror to see the enemy. That goes for him to. All he needs to do to see who the enemy is, is look into the mirror.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2014-03-17 11:07:40 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Andreus and Fred Fred they are the propaganda machine for the Federation and along with the Caldari liberal capsuleers who are also anti Heth, they have done excellent job over his reign castigating him in bad light.


As much as I would like to think I have enough influence to bring about the demise of (at the time) the most powerful person in the cluster, it was really something he brought unto himself.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#215 - 2014-03-17 11:12:47 UTC
You don't seem to understand, Horn - or far more likely you understand perfectly but you're being purposely disingenuous for the sake of attempting (and failing) to make some sort of political point - that our stance on the Caldari has changed, and very much for the better, since they got rid of Heth. Our stance on Provists such as yourself, however, has not changed a bit. You're still venal, lying, honourless bastards obsessed with power and destruction. The Caldari State and its people aren't the one making outrageous demands - it's you Provists, who I no longer consider to be part of the State (since, you know, your organisation was dissolved by the CEP and Heth is a wanted terrorist at best). The CEP isn't attempting to float the unreasonable idea of dual sovereignty in Luminaire - you are.

You point out that I'm one man in a Federation of trillions. You're even less than that - you're one man, with whom the rest of the State quite clearly wants very little to do at all. I don't make judgements of the State based on the Provists, except where honest, hard-working Caldari were duped by your ilk. I'm not too fond of the fact that that happened, but I don't condemn them for it, because the Federation's citizens have fallen for the same type of liar many times before.

So to put it bluntly, Horn, the problem isn't Caldari. It's you.

Also, Horn, protip. Don't whine about genocide or death squads when you're prone to this sort of outburst:

TomHorn wrote:
We got to stop ***** footing around with these damn Gallentes. Mens Reppola and the other CEO's of the Mega Corporations their just to damn soft. They need to leave it us nationalists, provists, Templis Dragonaurs , we will get us into a real all out war with them, and set up in such a way that looks like its their fault. Its going to happen sooner or later so lets get on with it.We will storm into Luminaire kickem in the ass. Domesday Gallente Prime. We will get all those Gallente son of bitches of Caldari Prime ship off to Amar Empire as slave labour, or maybe hand them over to Nauplius for his goddam sacrifices. Thats what i would do, but nobody ever listens to me.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#216 - 2014-03-17 11:18:33 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
We got to stop ***** footing around with these damn Gallentes. Mens Reppola and the other CEO's of the Mega Corporations their just to damn soft. They need to leave it us nationalists, provists, Templis Dragonaurs , we will get us into a real all out war with them, and set up in such a way that looks like its their fault. Its going to happen sooner or later so lets get on with it.We will storm into Luminaire kickem in the ass. Domesday Gallente Prime. We will get all those Gallente son of bitches of Caldari Prime ship off to Amar Empire as slave labour, or maybe hand them over to Nauplius for his goddam sacrifices. Thats what i would do, but nobody ever listens to me.
[/quote]

You and Fred Fred were goading me. You wanted a reaction from me. I know the reaction you wanted and i gave it to you.
Please now dont complain to me after i gave you what you wanted.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#217 - 2014-03-17 11:22:27 UTC
That's your excuse? "I got upset?"

You got upset about not having a very strong argument, so you advocated the wholesale genocide of an entire planetary population and the sale of half of another into slavery? Oh, and not to mention a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice and outright frame the Federation as the aggressors in a war escalation?

If you're prone to that sort of paroxysm of rage whenever anyone beats you in a debate, I don't think you're in any position to whine about people being unreasonable.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#218 - 2014-03-17 11:24:22 UTC
Horn: Cold Wind must blow.

Words to meditate on and live by.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2014-03-17 11:44:11 UTC
Mr. Horn, when you wake up with a rash, stop sleeping with dancers.

I think that's the saying...yeah...

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#220 - 2014-03-17 11:48:25 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Andreus and Fred Fred they are the propaganda machine for the Federation and along with the Caldari liberal capsuleers who are also anti Heth

Correction: they aren't "liberal" Caldari, they are anti-Caldari.
As I said somewhere, there is a rather thick and visible line between being liberal and traitor. Liberals are still Caldari, and they put Caldari interests first, when dealing with foreign parties, as all other Caldari would. Those, who neglect Caldari interests, heroes and history, aren't liberal anymore. They are scum. At least because they, while striving to be liberal to foreigners, aren't liberal to our own people anymore.

TomHorn wrote:
they have done excellent job over his reign castigating him in bad light. For months they say to the liberals, those in middle or who havent made up the mind, you are the good Caldari we are for you we can work with you. Remove Heth and we can work together. Of course they want to remove Heth he was seen as a grave threat to the Federation.

Frankly speaking, only braindead or gallentean bootlickers will believe in all anti-Heth propaganda.
After all the heroic deeds Tibus Heth did in the name of Caldari and for the State, only absolute morons could say he was "against" Caldari.
Even during hostile takeover, Heth-haan did everything to prevent spill of Caldari blood.


TomHorn wrote:
Where is your gratitude, where is your thanks to those Caldari who helped you remove Heth. Thanks for your help for removing Heth but there are still no good deals for you the Caldari , you should be grateful for what you have.

There is only one gratitude to these "Caldari", who helped remove Heth, should be made.
Hang them on trees all around New Caldari. That's the only payment they deserve.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.