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What ever happened to the Star Trek Generation? The future.
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-03-09 22:36:39 UTC
Kudos12345 wrote:
Thing is we already have the tech right now to travel at 10-30% of the speed of light and send massive payloads into space and we have had the tech for the last fifty sixty years, the hint here is the downside involves a lot of atmospheric radiation :D

edit
But in saying that again things like that can be reduced with further research and resource dedication in such areas.

The ORION project wasn't finished for more reasons than its inherent unsafety, and no we do not have that technology. The furthest we have gotten is speculating that it is possible. There are several paths toward building a spacecraft that can travel with 1G+ thrust and 100,000+ iSP and we know the fuel sources of some of them. We know they CAN work, but we're a long ways away from being able to build them.

I say we stop getting flustered that the rest of the solar system lacks life and start learning how to live in a barren environment. That's the direction our technology could be taking and making realistic short-term strides. We can already put people on the Moon and supply them from Earth. If we just put the resources in and finally make a Moon base, how long will it be before the people there have learned enough about their surroundings to speculate on how the base can be self-sustaining? I posit that it will take a month before they have prospected the area around them for natural resources, a year before they know how to build a drilling station for them. They may never be completely self-sustaining but I bet in 10-30 years they would be mining enough value to justify their costs without the scientific research, and what they do learn will go a long way toward making it viable to start bases on much richer worlds like Ganymede or many others.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Aspalis
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-03-09 23:09:57 UTC
Kudos12345 wrote:
Aspalis wrote:
Kudos12345 wrote:
Thing is we already have the tech right now to travel at 10-30% of the speed of light and send massive payloads into space and we have had the tech for the last fifty sixty years, the hint here is the downside involves a lot of atmospheric radiation :D

edit
But in saying that again things like that can be reduced with further research and resource dedication in such areas.


You are forgetting radiation from our own sun and inter-stellar sources (galaxies, nebulae, stars, supernovas, quasars and gamma-ray bursts).


Actually thats pretty standard knoweledge.


That is however not what you wrote in your post.

Marcus Gord: "Aspalis is an onion. Many layers, each one makes you cry."
Kudos12345
Doomheim
#23 - 2014-03-09 23:34:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kudos12345
Well I didn't write plenty of things it doesn't mean there are no other risks in space flight.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Kudos12345 wrote:
Thing is we already have the tech right now to travel at 10-30% of the speed of light and send massive payloads into space and we have had the tech for the last fifty sixty years, the hint here is the downside involves a lot of atmospheric radiation :D

edit
But in saying that again things like that can be reduced with further research and resource dedication in such areas.

The ORION project wasn't finished for more reasons than its inherent unsafety, and no we do not have that technology. The furthest we have gotten is speculating that it is possible. There are several paths toward building a spacecraft that can travel with 1G+ thrust and 100,000+ iSP and we know the fuel sources of some of them. We know they CAN work, but we're a long ways away from being able to build them.

I say we stop getting flustered that the rest of the solar system lacks life and start learning how to live in a barren environment. That's the direction our technology could be taking and making realistic short-term strides. We can already put people on the Moon and supply them from Earth. If we just put the resources in and finally make a Moon base, how long will it be before the people there have learned enough about their surroundings to speculate on how the base can be self-sustaining? I posit that it will take a month before they have prospected the area around them for natural resources, a year before they know how to build a drilling station for them. They may never be completely self-sustaining but I bet in 10-30 years they would be mining enough value to justify their costs without the scientific research, and what they do learn will go a long way toward making it viable to start bases on much richer worlds like Ganymede or many others.


I suppose i could make a correction and say that we have all the pieces of technology right now that makes that proposal feasible and the research into it has gone a bit beyond speculation.
Aspalis
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-03-10 00:13:17 UTC
Kudos12345 wrote:
Well I didn't write plenty of things it doesn't mean there are no other risks in space flight.


Of course not, because there are plenty of risks involved. But I do think it was silly to leave out something that is common knowledge, especially amongst people interested in space.

Marcus Gord: "Aspalis is an onion. Many layers, each one makes you cry."
Kudos12345
Doomheim
#25 - 2014-03-10 00:15:16 UTC
Aspalis wrote:
Kudos12345 wrote:
Well I didn't write plenty of things it doesn't mean there are no other risks in space flight.


Of course not, because there are plenty of risks involved. But I do think it was silly to leave out something that is common knowledge, especially amongst people interested in space.



You nailed it there among people interested in space where such a thing would be common knowledge.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-03-10 00:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Aspalis wrote:
Of course not, because there are plenty of risks involved. But I do think it was silly to leave out something that is common knowledge, especially amongst people interested in space.

While we're at it, lets police everyone mentioning the term "space flight" and make sure they go into detail about the dynamics of stable rocket flight before they continue on their brief topic about how much funding needs to go into MARS colonization. They should also discuss the Oberth Effect, Hohmann transfer orbits, the pendulum rocket fallacy, and the effects of zero-G on bone mass over time. And lets not forget the difficulties and expenses of preserving food for a long time, not to mention the health effects from eating highly-preserved foods only for extended periods of time. Oh no, I mentioned the pendulum rocket fallacy without going into detail about where to put the center of mass, center of lift, and center of thrust, and I didn't even run over topics such as thrust to weight ratio, thrust to mass ratio, the difference between weight and mass and how it affects spaceflight in a variety of rocket designs, specific impulse, the effect of atmosphere on specific impulse given various engine designs, atmospheric scale height and air resistance...oh no, I mentioned specific impulse and didn't go into detail about exhaust velocity, the Oberth effect, aerospike engines, and beamed power! AAAAAAAAAUUUUGH!!!


edit: after writing this, I realized that as the Star Trek generation fades away it will likely be replaced by the Kerbal Space Program generation. Mark my words, it will happen.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Commissar Kate
Kesukka
#27 - 2014-03-10 00:56:15 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Aspalis wrote:
Of course not, because there are plenty of risks involved. But I do think it was silly to leave out something that is common knowledge, especially amongst people interested in space.

While we're at it, lets police everyone mentioning the term "space flight" and make sure they go into detail about the dynamics of stable rocket flight before they continue on their brief topic about how much funding needs to go into MARS colonization. They should also discuss the Oberth Effect, Hohmann transfer orbits, the pendulum rocket fallacy, and the effects of zero-G on bone mass over time. And lets not forget the difficulties and expenses of preserving food for a long time, not to mention the health effects from eating highly-preserved foods only for extended periods of time. Oh no, I mentioned the pendulum rocket fallacy without going into detail about where to put the center of mass, center of lift, and center of thrust, and I didn't even run over topics such as thrust to weight ratio, thrust to mass ratio, the difference between weight and mass and how it affects spaceflight in a variety of rocket designs, specific impulse, the effect of atmosphere on specific impulse given various engine designs, atmospheric scale height and air resistance...oh no, I mentioned specific impulse and didn't go into detail about exhaust velocity, the Oberth effect, aerospike engines, and beamed power! AAAAAAAAAUUUUGH!!!


edit: after writing this, I realized that as the Star Trek generation fades away it will likely be replaced by the Kerbal Space Program generation. Mark my words, it will happen.



Haha, its true. I was thinking Kerbal when I was reading this.

-k8

My Fanclub
MutnantRebel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-03-10 02:57:42 UTC
I think working on learning HOW to colonize other planets would be a great first step. We've already got a "Lottery" of sorts for a Mars move, as has been stated in the news and here https://www.mars-one.com/

Mining Asteroids here http://www.planetaryresources.com/

If we also set up on the moon with, say, 6 month rotations at first we'd learn A LOT about making a barren planet habitable. Not terra forming, but figuring out how to live on such a place. Maybe domes can make an artificial atmosphere eventually.

I just think our time would be better spent doing these things, rather than fighting each other. However, we're currently working on dragging the world back into the dark ages it seems....

Trailer Trash and proud of it!
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-03-10 02:58:18 UTC
Yeah, who's fault is it that we can't have nice things? http://www.ecanadanow.com/science/2014/03/09/google-tech-is-too-much-for-progressive-san-francisco/

We're slowly developing much of the tech but none of the manners of Roddenberry's vision. Less Star Trek and more Blade Runner.

If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg

But in purple, I'm stunning!
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#30 - 2014-03-10 04:33:44 UTC
Did not read all, but i'm a ST fan so might as well pipe in.

A few thigns you have to realize, humans tend to be more about me me me. You cna see it in the US and other countries all the time. People don;t care about thing sunless it effects them personally. Stuff like space travel, people think is a waste of time and money, thought alot of things we have and take for granted today, came because of the race to the moon.

The ST world can only come about if one of four things happens:

1) We have a huge war that whipes out most of the population, and most of the current countries. And out of this everyone says enough is enough and they unify.

2) Someone raises a big enough army and conquers the entire plant, and forces a planetary dictatorship. Which would lead to rebellions.

3) We get met by aliens and are forced to unite for the common good, or to kill them all.

4) We allow gov to evolve naturally, which started with the EU. Eventually we will all be one gov. But that will takes ages.

Of these, all are not very likely. What is likely, is eventually someone will find a 'warp' technology, you have tons of people inspired by ST and Star Wars, and there only goal in life is to make Warp Drive possible, if there is a way to do it, we will eventually crack it. Once this is cracked, each nation will prolly send out its own ships and try to colonize. Think of mars being controlled by all the nations in different factions. OFC with thing slike Mars One coming, its also possible mars will be controlled by a corporation.

One thing that might eventually make us closer to the ST world, id the 3d printer. This is a primitive form of replicator. If this becomes huge, and can make anything, then money will no longer exist, as it will not be needed if you can make anything. But.. the odds of that happening are not very big either.

Anyway i rambled. so yea.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2014-03-10 04:52:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
MutnantRebel wrote:
If we also set up on the moon with, say, 6 month rotations at first we'd learn A LOT about making a barren planet habitable. Not terra forming, but figuring out how to live on such a place. Maybe domes can make an artificial atmosphere eventually.

I'm sure that we could set up experiments of this kind on earth itself with zero risk to human lives. I think our interests are myopic. There's more financial investment in the next plastic surgery breakthrough than in colonizing space. Has the biggest leap in this area really been a Pauly Shore movie?

It's a bit hypocritical for me to say.. I spend most of my time making manufacturing of car-related robotics more efficient.. does this really contribute to our advancement as a species?

/蘭

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Aspalis
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-03-10 06:32:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Aspalis
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Aspalis wrote:
Of course not, because there are plenty of risks involved. But I do think it was silly to leave out something that is common knowledge, especially amongst people interested in space.

While we're at it, lets police everyone mentioning the term "space flight" and make sure they go into detail about the dynamics of stable rocket flight before they continue on their brief topic about how much funding needs to go into MARS colonization. They should also discuss the Oberth Effect, Hohmann transfer orbits, the pendulum rocket fallacy, and the effects of zero-G on bone mass over time. And lets not forget the difficulties and expenses of preserving food for a long time, not to mention the health effects from eating highly-preserved foods only for extended periods of time. Oh no, I mentioned the pendulum rocket fallacy without going into detail about where to put the center of mass, center of lift, and center of thrust, and I didn't even run over topics such as thrust to weight ratio, thrust to mass ratio, the difference between weight and mass and how it affects spaceflight in a variety of rocket designs, specific impulse, the effect of atmosphere on specific impulse given various engine designs, atmospheric scale height and air resistance...oh no, I mentioned specific impulse and didn't go into detail about exhaust velocity, the Oberth effect, aerospike engines, and beamed power! AAAAAAAAAUUUUGH!!!


edit: after writing this, I realized that as the Star Trek generation fades away it will likely be replaced by the Kerbal Space Program generation. Mark my words, it will happen.


Imagine being arrested by the cops and have this kind of knowledge? They would think they had super villains to deal with!

Kerbal Space Program, the newest super villain simulator. Available now on Steam.

Marcus Gord: "Aspalis is an onion. Many layers, each one makes you cry."
Bronden Neopatus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-03-10 07:52:12 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
MutnantRebel wrote:
LOL no. Not at all. I'd rather it be a voluntary cooperation.


Start Trek (Rodenberry) voluntarily created a *fictional* script where everyone volunteered to behave in a way other than humans have behaved for all of recorded history and poof the magical fairy land of the star trek world came to be.

MutnantRebel wrote:

But, it WOULD be a boost to economies all over this planet to go explore others.



It would? How do you know? Fact of the matter is you don't know.

What WOULD boost the economy of the world is if all of the governments of the world stopped meddling in the affairs of all the people in the world. Governments produce nothing, all they do is consume wealth and consume productive capacity, and do so by involuntary means.

Imagine all of the time and effort spent, by individuals and business, on complying with regulations.

Imagine all the of the time and effort spent by governments on making sure people are complying with those regulations.

Imagine all of the time and effort spent by governments on administrating their regulations.

And not least of all, imagine all of the guns and bombs, which is wealth spent and then destroyed, destroying yet other forms of wealth all over the world, from fields to pigs and chickens, houses, buildings, and not least of all lives.

Add up all of the wealth, involuntary stolen from the people of the world, by the governments of the world.

Want a new planet to explore and give a massive boost to the economy? Get rid of your governments.


What makes you think that people would be any better than they are in existing societies without a government?

Look at EVE for a virtual world as you ask it.

Look at the tribes of Papua New Guinea for the real world as you ask it.

She strutted into my office wearing a dress that clung to her like Saran Wrap to a sloppily butchered pork knuckle, bone and sinew jutting and lurching asymmetrically beneath its folds, the tightness exaggerating the granularity of the suet and causing what little palatable meat there was to sweat, its transparency the thief of imagination.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#34 - 2014-03-10 14:43:49 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

It's a bit hypocritical for me to say.. I spend most of my time making manufacturing of car-related robotics more efficient.. does this really contribute to our advancement as a species?

/蘭



"The greatest minds of my generation are all now writing Apps." - William Gibson

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#35 - 2014-03-10 15:28:31 UTC
I always find it strange, but I know there are investment on space mining as we speak

I bet that first functional permanent spaceship (as one that never land on earth) would be mining vessel.

but some player argue that it would be hauler.
MutnantRebel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-03-10 15:42:49 UTC
I'd venture that those going out would not have any sort of combat protection.... After all, we ARE alone in this universe.... Right? LOL

Trailer Trash and proud of it!
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-03-10 15:59:27 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
1) We have a huge war that whipes out most of the population, and most of the current countries. And out of this everyone says enough is enough and they unify.

2) Someone raises a big enough army and conquers the entire plant, and forces a planetary dictatorship. Which would lead to rebellions.

3) We get met by aliens and are forced to unite for the common good, or to kill them all.

4) We allow gov to evolve naturally, which started with the EU. Eventually we will all be one gov. But that will takes ages.

1.) Population cleansing does not teach lessons, it only fuels hatred and religion.

2.) Dictatorships are thinning out as modern education spreads. Many countries are now immune to falling for such political games. They all have democratic leaderships now and will only slip downhill in a steamy cloud of self-absorbed complacency. These people can no longer be tricked into believing that shít is gold.

3.) more on this in a bit

4.) We will never be all one government until we have other threats to contend with. One of the most basic human societal drives is the drive to unite against a common foe. That's the force that binds us. Not having foes, we will fall apart and split into different factions, and those factions will find reasons to hate each other.

The only thing that can unite all humans together is a combination of a surplus of resources and land, and a common threat to us all. We have to all agree that working together will defeat our enemies and win us more land and resources. That's the force that drives us.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#38 - 2014-03-10 16:00:30 UTC
Bronden Neopatus wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
MutnantRebel wrote:
LOL no. Not at all. I'd rather it be a voluntary cooperation.


Start Trek (Rodenberry) voluntarily created a *fictional* script where everyone volunteered to behave in a way other than humans have behaved for all of recorded history and poof the magical fairy land of the star trek world came to be.

MutnantRebel wrote:

But, it WOULD be a boost to economies all over this planet to go explore others.



It would? How do you know? Fact of the matter is you don't know.

What WOULD boost the economy of the world is if all of the governments of the world stopped meddling in the affairs of all the people in the world. Governments produce nothing, all they do is consume wealth and consume productive capacity, and do so by involuntary means.

Imagine all of the time and effort spent, by individuals and business, on complying with regulations.

Imagine all the of the time and effort spent by governments on making sure people are complying with those regulations.

Imagine all of the time and effort spent by governments on administrating their regulations.

And not least of all, imagine all of the guns and bombs, which is wealth spent and then destroyed, destroying yet other forms of wealth all over the world, from fields to pigs and chickens, houses, buildings, and not least of all lives.

Add up all of the wealth, involuntary stolen from the people of the world, by the governments of the world.

Want a new planet to explore and give a massive boost to the economy? Get rid of your governments.


What makes you think that people would be any better than they are in existing societies without a government?

Look at EVE for a virtual world as you ask it.

Look at the tribes of Papua New Guinea for the real world as you ask it.


Except tribes have Governments. They, at least if they follow the same structure as Native Americans, have an elder council. That is a Gov. The moment you have a leader of any kind you have a Gov. This is why true anarchy is a myth. It would collapse rather quickly and someone would step up and reform a gov. Be it the head of your house, or a council, or someone who had guns before anarchy and forced a dictatorship.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#39 - 2014-03-10 16:21:06 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:


2.) Dictatorships are thinning out as modern education spreads. Many countries are now immune to falling for such political games. They all have democratic leaderships now and will only slip downhill in a steamy cloud of self-absorbed complacency. These people can no longer be tricked into believing that shít is gold.



Tell that to Putin, Assad, China, N. Korea, and any other leader of a Middle Eastern or African country.


"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2014-03-10 16:30:42 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:


2.) Dictatorships are thinning out as modern education spreads. Many countries are now immune to falling for such political games. They all have democratic leaderships now and will only slip downhill in a steamy cloud of self-absorbed complacency. These people can no longer be tricked into believing that shít is gold.



Tell that to Putin, Assad, China, N. Korea, and any other leader of a Middle Eastern or African country.


Putin isn't a dictator, because his country is one of the ones immune to dictatorship. His people even now are against his leadership and it wont be long before his regime crumbles.

Most middle eastern and African countries aren't on that list of well-educated peoples who have tasted of freedom and luxury. Bits of China have seen it but a lot more doesn't even know what a cell phone is.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."