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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Increase NPC Station S&I Costs

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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2014-03-11 15:59:11 UTC
The killer for me there is the breaking the ability of smaller producers to compete. This is probably the majority of manufacturers and stopping them from competing hands control of manufacture to the big alliances. I'm wary of things that stop new players entering into any of the career paths as it would put them off.From what I've seen from other threads the benefit of a POS outweighs the fuel costs considerably for a dedicated manufacturer and inventor ao it would seem that the POS benefit is already there. Of course I could be wrong :)

Perhaps an intermediate here would be to introduce deployables that can form a non-anchored station. These would not be as fast as a dedicated POS and would be more vulnerable as they would have less defense by virtue of needing systems to keep the platform stable at a langrangian point or some such. However this could free up slots at stations because medium producers would be better suited with their own station, would allow smaller groups to have a POS albeit a smaller less efficient one, and could be a testbed for replacing the current POS system with those formed from deployables instead.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#82 - 2014-03-11 16:06:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
How about scaling up the cost/hour based on the length of the job? Right now cost scales linerally with time (duh), but it could be made polynomial. It would be a smooth transition rather than "pay pos fuel prices for EVERYTHING." It would target major manufacturers that submit long jobs and should probably be using a pos anyway. It would implement a true cost for people using public slots + alts to overresearch BPOs or set up 30-day copy jobs. It would force all capital research and most capital production into poses or nullsec stations, where it should probably be anyway.

Obviously it would need some examining as it would hit some things harder than others, but it could perhaps be more acceptable than to add a flat cost/hour onto everyone.

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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2014-03-11 16:10:26 UTC
Batelle wrote:
How about scaling up the cost/hour based on the length of the job? Right now cost scales linerally with time (duh), but it could be made polynomial. It would be a smooth transition rather than "pay pos fuel prices for EVERYTHING." It would target major manufacturers that submit long jobs and should probably be using a pos anyway. It would implement a true cost for people using public slots + alts to overresearch BPOs or set up 30-day copy jobs. It would force all capital research and most capital production into poses or nullsec stations, where it should probably be anyway.

Obviously it would need some examining as it would hit some things harder than others, but it could perhaps be more acceptable than to add a flat cost/hour onto everyone.


Now that sounds much more workable. New players producing their own ammo would barely be affected, they could also produce high isk density low volume items if they plan well and this would give a good grounding for them when they are ready for their own POS.

I'd still like unanchored POS though too...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#84 - 2014-03-13 15:20:49 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
The killer for me there is the breaking the ability of smaller producers to compete. This is probably the majority of manufacturers and stopping them from competing hands control of manufacture to the big alliances. I'm wary of things that stop new players entering into any of the career paths as it would put them off.From what I've seen from other threads the benefit of a POS outweighs the fuel costs considerably for a dedicated manufacturer and inventor ao it would seem that the POS benefit is already there. Of course I could be wrong :)

Perhaps an intermediate here would be to introduce deployables that can form a non-anchored station. These would not be as fast as a dedicated POS and would be more vulnerable as they would have less defense by virtue of needing systems to keep the platform stable at a langrangian point or some such. However this could free up slots at stations because medium producers would be better suited with their own station, would allow smaller groups to have a POS albeit a smaller less efficient one, and could be a testbed for replacing the current POS system with those formed from deployables instead.


Why would this break the ability of smaller producers to compete?

Owning a POS requires being in a corp, but you can do that as a solo player. Defending a POS may be more difficult, but you can mitigate your risks and make a POS undesirable to attack using POS defenses. It is just like hauling good to the market, you can do it in one trip in a easy to blow up ship, or you can make several trips in a beefier, less "shoot-me-please" manner.

Furthermore, I don't think everyone will instantly swap to POS Manufacturing. There are enough disadvantages to owning the POS that many people will simply manufacture with lower profit margins. And there are quite of production options out there that your small players should be able to compete without NEEDING a POS.

I don't think it is all that hard to find a sweet spot, where POS's are a desirable platform to produce from while not being a necessary platform to produce from is that hard to hit when we look at the full spectrum of production opportunities.

As for your alternative, if I'm putting a billion isk or ten in a vulnerable structure, I'd like it to have some serious defenses. I figure POS's are an excellent platform for this, although I'd fully support a massive revamp of POS's.
Pew Terror
All of it
#85 - 2014-03-13 17:00:15 UTC
Argument 1: NPC production cost is too cheap, raise it.
Argument 2: Noone will notice the price increase on final goods.

+1 for logic
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#86 - 2014-03-13 18:43:59 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Why would this break the ability of smaller producers to compete?



You haz not seen a tiny 'oversight' in your proposal, POS fuel cubes.

POS fuel cubes comes from a BPO not asteroid field. You need POS fuel BPO, need ice to bake, bake in station.

Increase bake cost of zee errythinkz, increase POS fuel cost.


Now POS cost zee more than before.

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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#87 - 2014-03-13 18:53:48 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Why would this break the ability of smaller producers to compete?



You haz not seen a tiny 'oversight' in your proposal, POS fuel cubes.

POS fuel cubes comes from a BPO not asteroid field. You need POS fuel BPO, need ice to bake, bake in station.

Increase bake cost of zee errythinkz, increase POS fuel cost.


Now POS cost zee more than before.


It takes 5 minutes to build 40 Fuel Blocks.

40 * 60 / 5 == is 480 Fuel Blocks an hour.

The proposed line cost of 100k install and 33k isk / hour would increase the price of a fuel block by less than 300 isk.

Current Jita sell sell prices are around 17000 isk each. A large POS, using 40 / hr, would have a 1.2k increase in hourly operational costs.

While I appreciate pointing out things I may have overlooked, for most manufacturing jobs, the end consumer will see a very small price increase, usually an order of magnitude smaller than the standard price fluctuation most markets currently experience.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#88 - 2014-03-30 22:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
Batelle wrote:
How about scaling up the cost/hour based on the length of the job? Right now cost scales linerally with time (duh), but it could be made polynomial. It would be a smooth transition rather than "pay pos fuel prices for EVERYTHING." It would target major manufacturers that submit long jobs and should probably be using a pos anyway. It would implement a true cost for people using public slots + alts to overresearch BPOs or set up 30-day copy jobs. It would force all capital research and most capital production into poses or nullsec stations, where it should probably be anyway.

Obviously it would need some examining as it would hit some things harder than others, but it could perhaps be more acceptable than to add a flat cost/hour onto everyone.

Perhaps, but since this idea of making it cost more per hour per hour (i.e. the increase in cost from hour 1 to hour 2 is less than the increase in cost from hour 11 to hour 12) is exactly backwards from the way real life usually works, this might make it a difficult concept to promote. I'm not outright opposed to it though.

A different "solution" might be to add information to blueprints which alters the build costs. Such as a "complexity" factor or some such. The blueprint's complexity factor would influence the production costs in some way. So make the "traditional market entry" blueprints (ammo etc.) low complexity, and the battleship construction blueprints (for example) high complexity.

MDD
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#89 - 2014-03-31 17:29:06 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
Batelle wrote:
How about scaling up the cost/hour based on the length of the job? Right now cost scales linerally with time (duh), but it could be made polynomial. It would be a smooth transition rather than "pay pos fuel prices for EVERYTHING." It would target major manufacturers that submit long jobs and should probably be using a pos anyway. It would implement a true cost for people using public slots + alts to overresearch BPOs or set up 30-day copy jobs. It would force all capital research and most capital production into poses or nullsec stations, where it should probably be anyway.

Obviously it would need some examining as it would hit some things harder than others, but it could perhaps be more acceptable than to add a flat cost/hour onto everyone.

Perhaps, but since this idea of making it cost more per hour per hour (i.e. the increase in cost from hour 1 to hour 2 is less than the increase in cost from hour 11 to hour 12) is exactly backwards from the way real life usually works, this might make it a difficult concept to promote. I'm not outright opposed to it though.

A different "solution" might be to add information to blueprints which alters the build costs. Such as a "complexity" factor or some such. The blueprint's complexity factor would influence the production costs in some way. So make the "traditional market entry" blueprints (ammo etc.) low complexity, and the battleship construction blueprints (for example) high complexity.

MDD


To be honest, I think increasing the cost / hour based on the total length of the job is a good thing because it creates unnecessary tedium. Think of it in terms of PI. You get more resources extracted / hr when you use shorter cycles, but there is a limit to how often people are willing to fiddle with it. I can't be asked to do cycles more often than once per day, and sometimes that is simply way too much and burns me out.

I suppose a lot of it depends on the target "timeline". For example, a marginal increase for the first 1-2 days, with a mild increase for 2-7 days, and a heavy increase for jobs longer than 7 days. This would be interesting to highsec ME and Copy slots, but I don't particularly think this would ideal for MFG slots. Furthermore, it doesn't address the price discrepancies between POS and Station MFG.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2014-03-31 18:54:08 UTC
Did we ever consider making nullsec manufacturing researching significantly better than NPC? Or am i thinking of a different thread?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#91 - 2014-03-31 19:08:32 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Did we ever consider making nullsec manufacturing researching significantly better than NPC? Or am i thinking of a different thread?


This would benefit manufacturing in Sov Nullsec too. To my recollection Corps that hold control over an outpost are able to set their own line costs (and set it to zero if they like) [I could be wrong as I haven't controlled an outpost for a long while now].

Other potential ways to boost manufacturing outside of highsec is to have some mechanic that increases the ME / PE rates of the job you are creating.

Actually, now that perfect refine is going away (see the reprocessing changes dev blog), perhaps they can finally implement a decrease in the material requirements... With the new ~60% refine rate on Modules, there will be some room for increasing this!

chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#92 - 2014-03-31 20:04:35 UTC  |  Edited by: chaosgrimm
Looked at thread wanting to trash it, thinking it was just another hisec basher ranting....

This was not the case and the idea looks completely reasonable. Station manufacturing still looks reasonable for the casual manufacturer, but it adds a lil sumpin sumpin for the hard core manufacturers.

I'm a little concerned about the installation costs possibly being excessive for new players as well as the overall effect it would have on the market. Ex: making 10,000 rounds of small ammo adds 10isk per round from the installation cost alone.

Ultimately, i like your idea. +1