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Dev blog: Ship Painting Pilot Program

First post First post First post
Author
Janden Rynd
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#541 - 2014-03-07 23:24:58 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Janden Rynd wrote:
I get the idea of trial and feedback; that's what the test server is for.
How does one test the attractiveness of MT based skins on the test server? I can see testing them mechanically, but then there's not much to test there since the current iteration does nothing that manufacturing doesn't already do.


Meh, that part of the comment was more in reference to the discussion of Incarna as a parallel (plus the irony that in recent times, many new mechanics have been rolled out on the test server to a negative response, only to be pushed live anyway in spite of the feedback).
IDGAD
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#542 - 2014-03-07 23:32:05 UTC
Although I would love to be able to pay a larger amount and get perma skins, I also respect and like the idea of having it being another market commodity. The sad thing is that the BS pricing is a little high at nearly 2 US$ per skin, especially considering that's like 60 mill isk in "aurum". 60 mill for a one time BS paint and 12 mill for a frigate paint is a little outrageous. The BS paint is only about half the hull cost of the BS, but the frigate (which sounds cheap at 20~30 cents) actually is MUCH more expensive at nearly five + times the hull cost. I don't see these being used besides by people that never fly them in PvP.
T'amber Demaleon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#543 - 2014-03-07 23:33:08 UTC
Well, would you look at that.
Who would have thought?
Amarisen Gream
Pleasant Peninsula Productions
Cauldron of Ecstasy
#544 - 2014-03-07 23:35:21 UTC
I would like to add to my former post somewhere in all this:

People need to realize (by people I mean CCP), if you keep locking special features in to a Pay-to-win like mindset. You are going to kill your own game.
I started less than a year ago. Plex where 500 million. They are over 600 million now. Thats over a 20% increase in cost (if my math/understanding are right)...
Heres the problem - rating, missions, incursions, etc. PVE stuff has not seen a increase in what you get. I go and run a lvl 4 mission, Damsel in Distress, I still kill the same number of bad guys, I still get the same about of isk for the mission.
CCP needs to watch their market: if you increase the demand on Plex. your going to make them cost to much ISK, which means newer players as well as casual players won't be able to afford them. Which means less sell, and more sub losses, which in turn, hurt CCPs wallet.

Point being - DON'T GET SO ****ING GREEDY in the way you want to do things, that you kill your own game.
I know this is a pilot program and so it will be rough.

+ your UI needs to be reworked anyway, so anyone complaining about all the backend work needed to make these skins work like a fitting slot should shush up :D

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Maul555
Xen Investments
#545 - 2014-03-07 23:37:18 UTC
Marcus Gideon wrote:
Janden Rynd wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
Also, people wanting persistent schemes.. No. Eve is about Loss. You LOSE things when you die. Why would people just keep giving you free paint jobs? No, you want to fly one, you put it on the line.


Ok, then you lose your eyepatch and your nice white shirt the next time you get podded.

Why would you get new free clothes for every clone?

This^

If you go and get yourself a Golden Pod, you will always have one, regardless of how many times you die.

If you stick in one of those god awful monocles, or get one of the sexy new tattoos, you will keep it forever.

Every other NEX product has been persistent, but now you're making disposable ship skins?

I get it though. I've known since the beginning, that our "characters" are just an excuse for having ship skills trained. And everything in the NEX has been accessories for our drivers license photo.

As far as the selection, I'm siding with the folks that this should be a Rig type slot, rather than a new ship.

For one thing, if they get mass produced, then your market is gonna look ugly as hell. Dropdowns within dropdowns, since you'd burrow down to Rifter, and then have to select what color you want. Or you'd search Contracts for a Rifter, and again have to pick the color first.

On the other hand, I know if you stick a turret or launcher onto a gold ship, it takes on gold highlights. If you stick that same weapon onto a red ship, it gets red highlights. So clearly CCP knows how to make dymanic color schemes.

Just mark bits of the skins. This bit is base color. This part is a little darker. This part is a little lighter. Then when someone applies "red" it spreads accordingly. A little darker here, a little lighter there.

As far as server overhead, it shouldn't be any worse than it is now. When 2 ships meet in space, the server says "Hey you, you see a Drake in space". All it would have to do is say "Hey you, you see a purple Drake in space". And your game client would go "Oh, ok... lemme dig up the Drake model I was going after to begin with, but I'll render it purple this time." There's no extra stress on the servers, just a little extra work for your GPU.

All this whining "Oh we can't do that, it'll slow down the servers" is a bunch of BS. And all the "time and effort" their wasting in trying to make new models of different varieties, is equally unimpressive.



aaaaaaand also THIS!
Gangerous Jack
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#546 - 2014-03-07 23:40:54 UTC
Hmpf

Well I dont think they should implement it as a skin but more in the lines of logos and paint jobs. You can have bpo/bpcs that create the paint (dyes in other games) using trade goods or planetary interaction items that are never used (non fuel block pi) You can still have micro transactions for custom paints and logos for players to purchase. You would not need an additional fitting slot for the dyes or logos. Just have an easy paint shop like you have for the re-customization of the characters. You could use similar coding just change it for ships instead of the character. That way players do not have to worry about repackaging ships or losing rigs.
There are a ton of other games that do this and still make money off of micro-transactions. From a programming and developer side it would be easier to do this and would be much faster to develop than the proposed custom skins. You dont need a deve sitting there 24/7 making skins. Players will always want different skins and to have the ability to make their own skins instead of being stuck with generic skins made by devs. Just look at Planetside 2 as an example they have a player development area where players make logos and items to add to the game store. You can have sections of the ships paintable (hull, weapon racks, and even different sections of the hull)

I would support this idea but not the way you are planning to implement it. To me you are handing the players a block of poop and expecting a huge turn out to fund future development. Implement it correctly and a way that is easier to expand upon and you will get a huge response. Players are interested and have been interested in this since the start of EVE online so using that as an excuse infuriates me.
Again if you put a prototype/pilot out there for players to test do it right and make it in the eyes of your clients not the eyes of the potential $ signs. This has a huge potential don't screw it up..............


Jack
T'amber Demaleon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#547 - 2014-03-07 23:52:11 UTC
Gangerous Jack wrote:
Hmpf

Well I dont think they should implement it as a skin but more in the lines of logos and paint jobs. You can have bpo/bpcs that create the paint (dyes in other games) using trade goods or planetary interaction items that are never used (non fuel block pi) You can still have micro transactions for custom paints and logos for players to purchase. You would not need an additional fitting slot for the dyes or logos. Just have an easy paint shop like you have for the re-customization of the characters. You could use similar coding just change it for ships instead of the character. That way players do not have to worry about repackaging ships or losing rigs.
There are a ton of other games that do this and still make money off of micro-transactions. From a programming and developer side it would be easier to do this and would be much faster to develop than the proposed custom skins. You dont need a deve sitting there 24/7 making skins. Players will always want different skins and to have the ability to make their own skins instead of being stuck with generic skins made by devs. Just look at Planetside 2 as an example they have a player development area where players make logos and items to add to the game store. You can have sections of the ships paintable (hull, weapon racks, and even different sections of the hull)

I would support this idea but not the way you are planning to implement it. To me you are handing the players a block of poop and expecting a huge turn out to fund future development. Implement it correctly and a way that is easier to expand upon and you will get a huge response. Players are interested and have been interested in this since the start of EVE online so using that as an excuse infuriates me.
Again if you put a prototype/pilot out there for players to test do it right and make it in the eyes of your clients not the eyes of the potential $ signs. This has a huge potential don't screw it up..............


Jack


The way they are doing it requires little effort: the art assets already exist and setting up the ship ids is minimal- so it won't distract developers away from anything else. It is a good place to start.

Th3 Arbit3r
Four-Q
#548 - 2014-03-08 00:05:19 UTC
T'amber Demaleon wrote:
Gangerous Jack wrote:
Hmpf

Well I dont think they should implement it as a skin but more in the lines of logos and paint jobs. You can have bpo/bpcs that create the paint (dyes in other games) using trade goods or planetary interaction items that are never used (non fuel block pi) You can still have micro transactions for custom paints and logos for players to purchase. You would not need an additional fitting slot for the dyes or logos. Just have an easy paint shop like you have for the re-customization of the characters. You could use similar coding just change it for ships instead of the character. That way players do not have to worry about repackaging ships or losing rigs.
There are a ton of other games that do this and still make money off of micro-transactions. From a programming and developer side it would be easier to do this and would be much faster to develop than the proposed custom skins. You dont need a deve sitting there 24/7 making skins. Players will always want different skins and to have the ability to make their own skins instead of being stuck with generic skins made by devs. Just look at Planetside 2 as an example they have a player development area where players make logos and items to add to the game store. You can have sections of the ships paintable (hull, weapon racks, and even different sections of the hull)

I would support this idea but not the way you are planning to implement it. To me you are handing the players a block of poop and expecting a huge turn out to fund future development. Implement it correctly and a way that is easier to expand upon and you will get a huge response. Players are interested and have been interested in this since the start of EVE online so using that as an excuse infuriates me.
Again if you put a prototype/pilot out there for players to test do it right and make it in the eyes of your clients not the eyes of the potential $ signs. This has a huge potential don't screw it up..............


Jack


The way they are doing it requires little effort: the art assets already exist and setting up the ship ids is minimal- so it won't distract developers away from anything else. It is a good place to start.



Distract them ? the whole corp logo creation overhaul and ship logo / painting feature is something everyone has craved for many a year and is something they should be concentrating on! rather than nerfs and pointless little things. This is real content addition to the game.

Overhaul the corp logo creator, add more stuff to it so we can more unique corp logo's. and add place holders or w/e to all players ships so corp's logos can be displayed. If all ships can have caldari logo's etc on them I don't see why they cant overlay corp logos.

As others have said, from here we could have a new slot added to ships in which we fit a paint canister type model. Look how battlestar galactica added paint jobs! which were premium yes but the model was permanent. If a cheap ass game like that can implement a decent system, I can't see why CCP devs cannot with eve.


Never the less, it's a trial so we'll have to see how it rolls before making concrete judgments I guess.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#549 - 2014-03-08 00:10:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
CCP Phantom wrote:
Please note that this current pilot project is just a test and an experiment to see if there is enough demand to justify further development.

IF there is enough demand, then there will be further dev time spent on the mechanics how to get ship paints. If there is enough demand, then the current version will be much improved.

If there is no demand, then it would be quite difficult to justify dev time spent on such a project though. This is one of the reasons why we have this pilot project in place. Smile

Please ignore the naysayers in this thread... There is a HUGE demand for this, and the cost is NOT prohibitive. There are going to be a lot of players that convert PLESK » AURUM and AURUM » in-game blueprints for sale for ISK. If this proves to be as popular as many think it will, how soon can you expand the number of ships and skins?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Marsan
#550 - 2014-03-08 00:23:50 UTC
Honestly I think you guys went a little over board with the dark colors outside of the Comet which rocks... Can we also see a flaming pink and white frigate, cruiser, and battleship? Because outside the comet I can't see myself shelling out for a drab dark color scheme. Also what would really rock is a corp logo.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#551 - 2014-03-08 01:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Janden Rynd wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:
If that were true, then they would have learned:

1. Do not roll something out in an unfinished state; a small sample of what could be will never get the same reception as the finished product.

2. People generally don't like the NEX store, especially when it's used as a blatant cash grab offering items of disproportionate value to the cost.


1: Consider that rolling out untested new mechanics without a period of trial and feedback from the player base is EXACTLY what got them into trouble to begin with. Far better to have community involvement in this manner before they go too far down that path.


I get the idea of trial and feedback; that's what the test server is for.

The problem I see with the comparison to Incarna is that for Incarna, they rolled out a tiny portion of what the expansion could have been, and people were loudly upset. The anger was largely over the lack of content and the small scale of what had been hyped as a major expansion. Unfortunately, CCP misinterpreted the outrage to mean that "the players don't like WIS, so we won't develop it any further."

I fear that the same misrepresentation of data may take place with this little experiment. If players don't like the way this limited system is represented, whether because of the use of the NEX store, the mechanics of applying the skin change, the small selection of ships/skins, or the cost, how will CCP know the difference? Given their track record, they are just as likely to ignore the feedback and come to the conclusion that because their pilot program was unsuccessful, that people don't want customizeable ship skins.

Ranger 1 wrote:
2: Pricing is one of the main points they want discussion on. And keep in mind you don't have to spend a penny to get as many paint jobs as you like, but the option is available to those that wish to cut to the chase and spend a few bucks instead. I would much, much prefer that if CCP decides its finally time to try and increase their revenue stream after 10+ years that they do it in a manner that is completely voluntary (and at the same time offers no game play advantage)... as opposed to the only other option of increasing everyone's subscription fee across the board.


I really don't care what currency I'm using; whether it's ISK, Aurum, or PLEX. As I've said before, paying more for a paint job than the cost of the completely fitted ship is patently ridiculous. I've given suggestions for ways that they could still make this microtransaction based with options for steady revenue while justifying the cost, and if they were to adapt a model similar to that, I'd consider using it. But the costs presented in this pilot program are way over the top, and I'd rather CCP not get the idea taht we don't want these customizations just because their prices are too high.

To a large extent I agree with your sentiment, however I think CCP is well aware of the factors in play.

Also consider that with Incarna there was a lot of expectation that allowed to grow as to what would be delivered, and not enough advance information on what would actually end up in game. This resulted in a horrible disappointment for many coming on the heels of 18 months of lean expansions due to the heavy investment of development time.

This time the expectations are clear, the limitations of the initial release clearly outlined, and the development time will not be spent unless the community is largely in favor of the direction things are taking.

Had CCP taken these steps with Incarna, and clearly outlined that the first release was only a test bed of the technology and environments on a very limited scale, many hard feelings would have been totally avoided.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#552 - 2014-03-08 01:24:36 UTC
Quote:
The material requirement of that blueprint copy is a ship hull of the type you want to paint, so make sure that’s in the same place you want to start the painting process... Pop the blueprint copy into a manufacturing slot (right click, Manufacture) and after a short while you can Deliver your shiny new ship.

Question: Does this have to be a repackaged hull? If so, it completely defeats the purpose of painting existing ships...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

T'amber Demaleon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#553 - 2014-03-08 01:25:08 UTC
Th3 Arbit3r wrote:
T'amber Demaleon wrote:
Gangerous Jack wrote:
Hmpf

Well I dont think they should implement it as a skin but more in the lines of logos and paint jobs. You can have bpo/bpcs that create the paint (dyes in other games) using trade goods or planetary interaction items that are never used (non fuel block pi) You can still have micro transactions for custom paints and logos for players to purchase. You would not need an additional fitting slot for the dyes or logos. Just have an easy paint shop like you have for the re-customization of the characters. You could use similar coding just change it for ships instead of the character. That way players do not have to worry about repackaging ships or losing rigs.
There are a ton of other games that do this and still make money off of micro-transactions. From a programming and developer side it would be easier to do this and would be much faster to develop than the proposed custom skins. You dont need a deve sitting there 24/7 making skins. Players will always want different skins and to have the ability to make their own skins instead of being stuck with generic skins made by devs. Just look at Planetside 2 as an example they have a player development area where players make logos and items to add to the game store. You can have sections of the ships paintable (hull, weapon racks, and even different sections of the hull)

I would support this idea but not the way you are planning to implement it. To me you are handing the players a block of poop and expecting a huge turn out to fund future development. Implement it correctly and a way that is easier to expand upon and you will get a huge response. Players are interested and have been interested in this since the start of EVE online so using that as an excuse infuriates me.
Again if you put a prototype/pilot out there for players to test do it right and make it in the eyes of your clients not the eyes of the potential $ signs. This has a huge potential don't screw it up..............


Jack


The way they are doing it requires little effort: the art assets already exist and setting up the ship ids is minimal- so it won't distract developers away from anything else. It is a good place to start.



Distract them ? the whole corp logo creation overhaul and ship logo / painting feature is something everyone has craved for many a year and is something they should be concentrating on! rather than nerfs and pointless little things. This is real content addition to the game.

Overhaul the corp logo creator, add more stuff to it so we can more unique corp logo's. and add place holders or w/e to all players ships so corp's logos can be displayed. If all ships can have caldari logo's etc on them I don't see why they cant overlay corp logos.

As others have said, from here we could have a new slot added to ships in which we fit a paint canister type model. Look how battlestar galactica added paint jobs! which were premium yes but the model was permanent. If a cheap ass game like that can implement a decent system, I can't see why CCP devs cannot with eve.


Never the less, it's a trial so we'll have to see how it rolls before making concrete judgments I guess.


Oh I agree it needs attention, I've been painting ships for almost 8 years now so I'm extremely excited about this feature. I just meant I like that they are taking small steps and getting some feedback and research, before the go all out, so they get it right.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#554 - 2014-03-08 01:25:44 UTC
Amarisen Gream wrote:
I would like to add to my former post somewhere in all this:

People need to realize (by people I mean CCP), if you keep locking special features in to a Pay-to-win like mindset. You are going to kill your own game.
I started less than a year ago. Plex where 500 million. They are over 600 million now. Thats over a 20% increase in cost (if my math/understanding are right)...
Heres the problem - rating, missions, incursions, etc. PVE stuff has not seen a increase in what you get. I go and run a lvl 4 mission, Damsel in Distress, I still kill the same number of bad guys, I still get the same about of isk for the mission.
CCP needs to watch their market: if you increase the demand on Plex. your going to make them cost to much ISK, which means newer players as well as casual players won't be able to afford them. Which means less sell, and more sub losses, which in turn, hurt CCPs wallet.

Point being - DON'T GET SO ****ING GREEDY in the way you want to do things, that you kill your own game.
I know this is a pilot program and so it will be rough.

+ your UI needs to be reworked anyway, so anyone complaining about all the backend work needed to make these skins work like a fitting slot should shush up :D

Fortunately there is nothing remotely like Pay to Win in play.

Market forces balance eventually. If demand increases and the price of PLEX goes up, more people buy them and the price comes back down to a sustainable level. So yes, prices will likely peak just before and shortly after release, and then drift back down. If the price was too high for people, demand would drop off and so would the prices.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#555 - 2014-03-08 01:29:48 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Quote:
The material requirement of that blueprint copy is a ship hull of the type you want to paint, so make sure that’s in the same place you want to start the painting process... Pop the blueprint copy into a manufacturing slot (right click, Manufacture) and after a short while you can Deliver your shiny new ship.

Question: Does this have to be a repackaged hull? If so, it completely defeats the purpose of painting existing ships...

Fair point, although with the ability to save fittings and apply them with a button click its really not much of an issue outside of rigs that would be lost in the process.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#556 - 2014-03-08 01:41:33 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Fair point, although with the ability to save fittings and apply them with a button click its really not much of an issue outside of rigs that would be lost in the process.

It's not so much the fittings as it is the potential loss of any rigs.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#557 - 2014-03-08 01:45:20 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


Anyone who knew ahead of time just made out like bandits.

And I just love how me playing the game just got more expensive in order to pay for someone else's vanity.
By the time this program hits full gear we will be seeing 750M plexes, bare mininum.


Um, not anybody

I won't say I wasn't tempted, I was.

I knew what was coming and I knew what the good investment would be and I decided . . . I like being on the csm and I like this game and if I need to make isk I can do so in some legitimate fashion.

Please, Dinsdale. Do not tar an entire group of people with one brush.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#558 - 2014-03-08 01:47:13 UTC
Altlama Hunskaya wrote:
I feel this is good idea and that it could really add something to the game. To me CCP role is to bring us the tools and not to do some painting job release set …



In a close future in local chat you could read "see i did buy that really well known player paint for my ship this guy is an artist ..."

again it is not CCP role to burn time in doing painting. In a longer term orther things like the customs you own ... could also be painted.


Here is what is happening, broken down into simple steps:


  1. CCP wants to determine whether the feature is worth working on at all. Is it just a small portion of the player base interested, or are there enough people interested to make it worth the effort of reworking the graphics engine to display custom skins on spaceships?
  2. CCP wants to determine exactly what burden custom graphics will place on user's systems. There's no point doing the work of custom ship skins only to find that we melt players' GPUs (remember what happened in Incarna, nobody enjoyed their computer spontaneously combusting)
  3. Once CCP have determined that the feature is worth implementing, and that it won't deleteriously affect your gameplay, they can then start the process of producing the backlog of custom skins that the art team have waiting
  4. Once the CCP-originated skins have started entering the game, I'm sure we can convince CCP to allow individuals to submit designs, using a similar process to alliance logos

Oraac Ensor
#559 - 2014-03-08 01:50:17 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:
I am thrilled to hear that CCP wants us to be able to customize our ships. I understand that this is something of a first-step, and not representative of what the final product will look like.

That said, I thought we all agreed that AUR need to be given a swift death? Why are they being dredged up for use in painting ships?

Why does ship painting need to have a cost associated with it? I really like how we can customize our characters at will, for me it is one of the best features in EVE. I thought it was a foregone conclusion that painting our ships would be the exact same deal. Please don't introduce microtransactions here, just let us paint our ships as much and as often as we would like without charging for a paint job.

THEN
PAY
WITH
ISK

(and learn to read)

I'm seriously considering starting a running count of all the people who completely miss the point that they can also pay for these custom paint jobs using only ISK (and more ways to do so than one). However, I'm afraid that it would simply take too much time.


What? I don't want to pay with ISK either Shocked

I should have to pay ISK to buy ships and modules. I don't have to pay ISK to recustomize my portrait, and I shouldn't have to pay ISK/AUR to paint my ship.

When was the last time you got your car painted for free?

Every car I ever bought came with the paint included in the price.

If you went to your local Ford dealership to buy a car, would you find all the various models painted the same corporate colour with repaints in other colours available at 16 times the cost of the basic vehicle?

I think not.

I think you would find each model available in a range of standard colours at an inclusive price, with probably a few special finishes available at a modest premium that represents only a small fraction of the total price.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#560 - 2014-03-08 02:01:08 UTC
I'm excited for the custom skins, but I think the implementation is needlessly complex. I think this feature will succeed or fail based on the price point CCP sets though. If I can get 50-100 paint jobs for a plex I think it will be a success, if I only get 20 I think it will fail.

But I have to question the implementation. It seems like it would've been much more simple if it would've been a (rig like) "paint job slot."