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Crime & Punishment

 
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That 1300 dollar raven kill and the 1330 dolalr scam.
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Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2014-03-06 14:14:13 UTC
Also note it was the guy's own decision to spend the first 1,500$ on a purple spaceship.

More importantly, he decided to throw away another 1,500$ right after he got absolute proof that shiny RNIs can get blown up very easily in highsec. No disclaimer would've stopped him.

You may disapprove of scams, but I'm sure we all agree that he would've lost that second RNI anyway.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#62 - 2014-03-06 14:27:10 UTC
Maybe Jim is just misunderstood and needs the warm loving embrace of a space girlfriend. I have some great matches in mind. They are a bit high maintenance but well worth it Jim!

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#63 - 2014-03-06 14:30:35 UTC
Erotica 1 wrote:
Maybe Jim is just misunderstood and needs the warm loving embrace of a space girlfriend. I have some great matches in mind. They are a bit high maintenance but well worth it Jim!
Do they have an amazon wishlist?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#64 - 2014-03-06 15:11:49 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Also note it was the guy's own decision to spend the first 1,500$ on a purple spaceship.

More importantly, he decided to throw away another 1,500$ right after he got absolute proof that shiny RNIs can get blown up very easily in highsec. No disclaimer would've stopped him.

You may disapprove of scams, but I'm sure we all agree that he would've lost that second RNI anyway.

Here's where the dichotomy of me being a take-no-prisoners asshat, and giving new players a chance collide...

In-game I want to play aggressively and bend over other players whenever possible, without having to research or distinguish first if he is 'new'. That's simply not my job as a player of the piratic genre.

However, Jimblidge literally landed fresh off the boat from WoW and honestly didn't know he could be ganked in hisec, probably assuming being in 'HISEC' he was 100% safe. He shouldn't *be* safe, not what I'm saying -- but he should at least be TOLD in the new player tutorials implicitly that he is not safe in hisec.

In short, the failing here wasn't the gankers. It wasn't even 100% Jimblidge's. It was CCP"s, in not at least expectation-levelling with a new player that they CAN lose ships, get scammed, etc -- in CLEAR terms.

The real simple answer to all this isnt nerfs, its outlined here. After that, anything goes, and so should it.

F

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Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#65 - 2014-03-06 15:14:35 UTC
For every Jim we lose, I'm sure we gain at least 100 players each looking for the next Jim.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-03-06 15:29:38 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
In short, the failing here wasn't the gankers. It wasn't even 100% Jimblidge's. It was CCP"s, in not at least expectation-levelling with a new player that they CAN lose ships, get scammed, etc -- in CLEAR terms.

The real simple answer to all this isnt nerfs, its outlined here. After that, anything goes, and so should it.
CCP could put further warnings in the tutorial, even though this (section 5) is already pretty much clear.

The fact is, silly and/or reckless players will lose stuff in hilarious ways no matter what.

Regarding your personal issue, if you gank or scam somebody and then feel sorry about it just give them their stuff back.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#67 - 2014-03-06 16:06:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
In short, the failing here wasn't the gankers. It wasn't even 100% Jimblidge's. It was CCP"s, in not at least expectation-levelling with a new player that they CAN lose ships, get scammed, etc -- in CLEAR terms.

The real simple answer to all this isnt nerfs, its outlined here. After that, anything goes, and so should it.
CCP could put further warnings in the tutorial, even though this (section 5) is already pretty much clear.

The fact is, silly and/or reckless players will lose stuff in hilarious ways no matter what.

Regarding your personal issue, if you gank or scam somebody and then feel sorry about it just give them their stuff back.

The challenge is a FAQ is not clear and accepted disclosure IMHO. I have no problem with the gank, scam et al -- what I do think is fair is a more clear risk acceptance every new player clicks "OK" to. i.e. Here are some nasty things that might happen to you, here are the '3 laws of capsuleers', do you accept them?

From a user interface, design and contract perspective -- I find peoples attention and focus only really comes into play when you ask them to sign or click "ACCEPT" on something...

After they do click that accept button however, its all good, and gankers should keep their lootz of course. Lets put it this way, I would rather a full-disclosure and acceptance tutorial for new players, than more f#ucking hisec nerfs to game mechanics...

F

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Dahox Lacefe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2014-03-06 16:40:27 UTC
I take issue with the idea that it is CCPs responsibility to inform every new player of every potential danger they face. Can you imagine how terribly unpopular the game would be if new players were told "welcome to our massive, collaborative universe. It is important to find other people to play with to enjoy this game to the fullest. However, literally everyone everywhere is out to kill you, or scam you, and there is nothing we will do to punish them/stop them/reimburse you. Have fun!"

I prefer a game experience that unfolds more naturally. I learned more getting scammed and ganked as a noob than any tutorial from CCP ever taught me.
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#69 - 2014-03-06 16:44:44 UTC
CCP, please direct some advertising money to fine publications such as Robb Report. I think the community would enjoy picturing more power brokers buying officer mods while flying in their private jets and losing them before they land.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#70 - 2014-03-06 18:11:50 UTC
Erotica 1 wrote:
Maybe Jim is just misunderstood and needs the warm loving embrace of a space girlfriend. I have some great matches in mind. They are a bit high maintenance but well worth it Jim!


You know, that'd be a "third party service" to match Chribba's, if you could pull it off.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sanies Moliko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2014-03-06 18:45:09 UTC
All I can say about this is see the sig below.....

EVE, You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#72 - 2014-03-06 18:57:44 UTC
I really wish Oiras would comment on this thread.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#73 - 2014-03-06 19:01:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Dahox Lacefe wrote:
I take issue with the idea that it is CCPs responsibility to inform every new player of every potential danger they face. Can you imagine how terribly unpopular the game would be if new players were told "welcome to our massive, collaborative universe. It is important to find other people to play with to enjoy this game to the fullest. However, literally everyone everywhere is out to kill you, or scam you, and there is nothing we will do to punish them/stop them/reimburse you. Have fun!"

I prefer a game experience that unfolds more naturally. I learned more getting scammed and ganked as a noob than any tutorial from CCP ever taught me.

I agree, conceptually...

However in reality we have seen CCP's response to such events like Jimblidge's derp as a long string of hisec mechanic nerfs. All I am ultimately saying is that given a choice between the two, more up front education from CCP ala tutorial, vs. moar hisec nerfs, I want a clear HTFU tutorial.

F

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Lady Areola Fappington
#74 - 2014-03-06 19:15:07 UTC
The main thing the "Sue 'em/chargeback" crowd seems to forget is, CCP isn't directly selling ISK anywhere.

There are two exchanges going on. The first exchange is person to CCP, which is an exchange of RL currency for one or more in-game items that can be redeemed for game time, ARUM tokens, or multiple character training.

The second exchange is when person A sells those game items to person B for in-game currency.


CCP's liability and interest pretty much ends when they deliver the plex to account. At that point, CCP has completed it's obligation. What you do after that is entirely up to you.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-03-06 19:17:42 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Dahox Lacefe wrote:
I take issue with the idea that it is CCPs responsibility to inform every new player of every potential danger they face. Can you imagine how terribly unpopular the game would be if new players were told "welcome to our massive, collaborative universe. It is important to find other people to play with to enjoy this game to the fullest. However, literally everyone everywhere is out to kill you, or scam you, and there is nothing we will do to punish them/stop them/reimburse you. Have fun!"

I prefer a game experience that unfolds more naturally. I learned more getting scammed and ganked as a noob than any tutorial from CCP ever taught me.

I agree, conceptually...

However in reality we have seen CCP's response to such events like Jimblidge's derp as a long string of hisec mechanic nerfs. All I am ultimately saying is that given a choice between the two, more up front education from CCP ala tutorial, vs. moar hisec nerfs, I want a clear HTFU tutorial.

F


I agree that a more in-depth look at mechanics should be tutorialized. A brand new player is very much over his or her head, with almost zero explanation of actual game mechanics, completely reliant on the community for explanation. I am a bit torn on this, as I was able to figure it out myself, and social Darwinism may indeed apply here... but... I also think its important to welcome new blood into the game we all love. An example of how I was personally subject to this in my infant stages of the game:

Locator agents. Nowhere is this explained in any official fashion. When I was a carebear, wardecced by BU and its allies, I was under the impression that they were able to find me using the "Agent Locator".... I know, stupid, but again its not explained. Things like this need to be clear, simply in the interest of new player knowledge. So, should new players have trial by fire, only learning how the game is played on the off chance that a vet wants to actually help them? Or should they be subjected to a tutorialized handholding? Im tempted to agree with my friend from house Harkonnen that I would rather see the beginning easymode than any more game wide nerfs. Just my opinion.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#76 - 2014-03-06 19:37:21 UTC
I would like to see CCP develop a Character creation opening video, that get's played upon every new install:

Quote:
EvE is a very complex sandbox universe, with many professions you can pursue:
♦ Start your empire mining raw materials from the asteroid belts and anomalies throughout the universe.
♦ Become the Manufacturing Industrialist, responsible for producing the ships and modules everyone flies.
♦ Become an expert in Trading, cornering entire ingame markets as a powerful business tycoon.
♦ Simply explore the universe, visiting the 1000's of systems, perhaps destroying NPC Pirates and looting their complexes.
♦ Or walk down a darker path as a pirate, looting or ransoming other players ships, perhaps attacking their industrial bases.
♦ Or build your own empire in Nullsec, teaming up with other players to bring huge portions of the universe under your domain.
Ultimately, you choose your own path.

However, be aware, as these paths and professions are ripe with obstacles:
Losing your assets means they are gone, forever, and you must then rebuild. Other players will attempt to take or destroy that which you achieve:
♦ Even in highsec, you are vulnerable to illegal attacks while flying in space.
♦ There are legal forms of attack too, from wardecs and duels, or if you commit a suspect or criminal action.
♦ There are scammers, that attempt to trick you out of isk and assets with false promises or too-good-to-be-true "deals".
♦ There are Spies and AWOXers that may infiltrate your trust and commit terrible acts of sabotage and theft.
And if these miscreants succeed, they may profit from it at your expense. It is up to you to protect yourself, and trust is a dangerous commodity.


So, where do you wish to start?
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#77 - 2014-03-06 19:40:35 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

In short, the failing here wasn't the gankers. It wasn't even 100% Jimblidge's. It was CCP"s, in not at least expectation-levelling with a new player that they CAN lose ships, get scammed, etc -- in CLEAR terms.

The real simple answer to all this isnt nerfs, its outlined here. After that, anything goes, and so should it.


Why do you think a CCP warning would have helped him? This is the guy that handed over a $1500 or whatever spaceship to a complete stranger after 10 minutes of conversation.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#78 - 2014-03-06 20:36:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Batelle wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

In short, the failing here wasn't the gankers. It wasn't even 100% Jimblidge's. It was CCP"s, in not at least expectation-levelling with a new player that they CAN lose ships, get scammed, etc -- in CLEAR terms.

The real simple answer to all this isnt nerfs, its outlined here. After that, anything goes, and so should it.


Why do you think a CCP warning would have helped him? This is the guy that handed over a $1500 or whatever spaceship to a complete stranger after 10 minutes of conversation.

Perhaps not this guy, perhaps not in that case...

But, might that up front knowledge about ganking in hisec have given him pause to put $1500 into his Navy Raven, perhaps. Might that up front disclaimer 'people will try to scam you...trust no one' have prevented the trade-window scam, perhaps.

Or perhaps not...

But...surely nerfs should be put at the 'front end' in the form of tutorial clarity, rather than on the 'back end' as actual in-game mechanic safety nets. The problem is see is that CCP is doing it on the back-end these days, with hisec mechanic nerfs. That heresy against HTFU must stop. If you need to protect tards like Jimblidge, do it through tutorial education and then call it a day...stop the nerfs.

F

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Lina Drasselbaff
Doomheim
#79 - 2014-03-06 20:58:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lina Drasselbaff
The thing is, CCP do tell you of the dangers.

On the getting started page, http://www.eveonline.com/start
Number 4: Getting started.
"New Player Guide" link.
Page 15 / Section 5. "5.3 SOME PLAYER JUST SHOT ME; IS THAT ALLOWED?"
Page 22 / Section 7. "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?"

And then answers saying no, people can take your stuff from you without your consent.

It's on the username signup page, it's not like it's hidden 35 menus deep.

I appreciate it's a lot to read, but as with any MMO, you have to take responsibility for doing your own research, especially before dumping thosands of REAL MONEY into it.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#80 - 2014-03-06 21:06:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lina Drasselbaff wrote:
The thing is, CCP do tell you of the dangers.

On the getting started page, http://www.eveonline.com/start
Number 4: Getting started.
"New Player Guide" link.
Page 15 / Section 5. "5.3 SOME PLAYER JUST SHOT ME; IS THAT ALLOWED?"
Page 22 / Section 7. "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?"

And then answers saying no, people can take your stuff from you without your consent.

It's on the username signup page, it's not like it's hidden 35 menus deep.

I appreciate it's a lot to read, but as with any MMO, you have to take responsibility for doing your own research, especially before dumping thosands of REAL MONEY into it.

Sure, but is something buried 15 and 22 pages deep ultimately effective?

Nope, thus my quest to make Aura new player tutorial #1 "thou shalt die, even in hisec" with an "OK/ACCEPT" button, instead of CCP doing these nerfs on the back-end to hisec whenever a carebear splodes and files a petition...

A new player might clue in to a clear bleak tutorial warning with an accept button, but not so much dive through a 'guide'. IMHO.

Its clear Jimblidge didn't read the user guide, but what would he perhaps have done differently if he were told clearly "you can die in hisec without your consent to fight"? He said as much in his interview on the mittani. No gauruntee he would have gotten a clue at that point, but again better than back-end nerfs to game mechanics.

F

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