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Reducing the gap between PvE and PvP: Rats

Author
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#21 - 2014-03-06 17:21:20 UTC
I'd like to add my own list of requirements regarding this type of change, that I've used for a while. Basically, any effort to make PVE and PVP similar should include the following.

1. The goal is to make PvE possible and profitable with PvP fitted ships. There's no question that min-maxing will still produce a more efficient result; there's no way to design this out of the system. The goal is to create options where currently there are none.
2. Missions should still be soloable with a general purpose fitting. Doing otherwise removes existing gameplay, and thats bad.
3. Strategies and counters that work in PvP should follow the same rules in PvE. IE, no more 150km webbers and so forth.

So we'd have fewer, stronger rats with more varied ewar, but the ewar could be countered with neuts or range and so on in the same way it's done vs players. Webs are 10km range, points are 20k, sensor damps have stacking penalties and don't cheat, neuts can be used to shut off NPC guns and reps, the works. There's no way that PvE will actually imitate a pvp situation, but at least the game mechanics will be consistent.

Also, there's the challenge of making things like scrams useful in pve. My personal favorite idea is having Elite Frigs and cruisers do an on-grid (150km) warp when they are about to die. This will teach new players about on-grid warping while also giving a benefit to scrams/points, but without requiring scrams to actually complete the mission. You'll just have a long trip to catch the rat if you didn't bring one :P (or do some grid-warping fu with large collidables).
Trik Star
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#22 - 2014-03-07 02:45:55 UTC
unidenify wrote:

I kill so fast in golem that I spent more time to drive to accelerate gate than I spent time to kill rats.


so thats during the mission, not travelling to and from the mission itself. and the vast majority of level 4's have the accel gates at the warp in beacon of the pocket or have only a single pocket.

Notorious Fellon wrote:
If we want rats (PVE) to be more like PVP enemies, then mission rooms should be empty on arrival. There should be one or more NPCs cloaked up just to make you nervous.

One of the cloaked NPCs should batphone the entire enemy alliance and then light a cyno.

Your ship should explode within seconds, likely before you see the entire fleet on grid. If you are lucky, you can maybe pick off a couple of them before the glorious fireball that was your ship.

Sounds fun.


then let us thank our lucky stars not all PvP experiences are like urs seem to be

Ines Tegator wrote:
2. Missions should still be soloable with a general purpose fitting. Doing otherwise removes existing gameplay, and thats bad.


what makes the existing gameplay in PvE good? or why at least would it be bad to destabilise it?
Trik Star
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#23 - 2014-03-07 03:11:40 UTC
thanks for taking the time Batelle.

i'd agree making PvE similar to PvP will be impossible, but the gap could definitely be reduced. even if it ends at mixing up mission consistency so that the damage types u face are not so predictable. or that rats start doing omni damage. and fewer rats will, theoretically, lead to less running around from rat to rat, increasing the viability of fast short ranged set-ups. i appreciate short ranged weapons are sometimes used in missions already, but like burst tanking, i'm thinking its a high SP thing.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#24 - 2014-03-07 05:15:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ines Tegator
Trik Star wrote:

what makes the existing gameplay in PvE good? or why at least would it be bad to destabilise it?


Missions are popular because they are a solo-able, safe way to make isk. Debate the desirability of this all you want (no 'nerf highsec' flame war, please. there are neough threads already dedicated to that), but a huge number of people (read: paying customers) use it and taking it away is not a realistic option for CCP. Rule 2 is intended to make sure that missions can still be used by the same people, for the same purpose. Everything else is up for grabs.
Sunai Karvinoinas
#25 - 2014-03-07 16:31:06 UTC
I have no idea about PvP outside of beeing a gank victim only. ;) (Was my fault, I know that.)
But I support the idea in general.

Fighting belt rats is nothing.
Fighting a huge amount of stupid rats in simple security missions is nothing. To rise the count of enemies does fights not make better.
So far I can support ideas which want to rise the fight quality instead of enemy quantity.

I would like to get prepared for PvP-like fighting by career agents. This should include using tactical methods to find and identify opponents. This also will reduce constraints against running lowsec. You have to be prepared ingame, not through external guides elsewhere, which may be not up to date anymore.

Rats might be like human opponents. Regular brackets. Criminal flag. An avatar. A personal skillevel depending on systems security state. Ship fittings will be designed from developers and experienced PvP players.

Of course this would be a complete overhaul and rebalancing of the whole system.
But in the first step, rats should get a much higher A.I.

But if you cannot distinguish between NPC and player opponents anymore, you will learn to stay attentive much more.

Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#26 - 2014-03-07 17:11:29 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
Also, there's the challenge of making things like scrams useful in pve. My personal favorite idea is having Elite Frigs and cruisers do an on-grid (150km) warp when they are about to die. This will teach new players about on-grid warping while also giving a benefit to scrams/points, but without requiring scrams to actually complete the mission. You'll just have a long trip to catch the rat if you didn't bring one :P (or do some grid-warping fu with large collidables).


If the target warps off, it should just despawn (no loot/bounty). Many ships have no capability to catch/kill a frigate that is at 150km and doesn't want to be caught, so having a frigate run away but still be required target would be dumb. Not all frigs should warp away.

If you really want to do this you have to wipe the npc database and replace it with fewer types of rats that have greater variety. Right now they're all long vs short range versions, some are elite, some use ewar. Thats about it. They would need to be given varied capabilities that immitate the actual performance of player ships. Rat damage types and damage type weaknesses are also a systemic factor that put a barrier between viable pvp fits and pve-optimized fits. I still can't imagine any change that would make a pvp fit preferable to use

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Trik Star
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#27 - 2014-03-14 20:54:26 UTC
Batelle wrote:

If you really want to do this you have to wipe the npc database and replace it with fewer types of rats that have greater variety. Right now they're all long vs short range versions, some are elite, some use ewar. Thats about it. They would need to be given varied capabilities that immitate the actual performance of player ships. Rat damage types and damage type weaknesses are also a systemic factor that put a barrier between viable pvp fits and pve-optimized fits. I still can't imagine any change that would make a pvp fit preferable to use


i like the idea of fewer different rat types with randomised stats. but just how randomised can affect pre-building rat strategies. like if whether a cruiser used damps or not was randomised, it would make it difficult to structure rat strategies for missions because u dnt know what will have what when they spawn.

so i guess it depends what u consider more important, identifying rats, or rats having a plan
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