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FIX for tidi dogpiles

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#61 - 2014-03-02 21:07:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Did you just redefine the meanings of "confusing"?
Nope.

Quote:
No one, especially me, is arguing for going back to the previous broken incarnation of sov. As I have repeatedly stated, a fix would involve a number of changes, not simply the removal of timers.
…and yet, the fact remains that the timers serve a purpose and that anything that removes them will have to be replaced with something that serves pretty much the exact same purpose or we're back to the old system. If you're going to have a delaying mechanic, why not have it be… oh… a simple delay?

Quote:
Large ezymode coalitions benefit directly from the mails
…but that's because everyone does. The difference is that large coalitions could trivially compensate for their removal whereas smaller ones could not — that's just the simple advantage of having more people compared to having fewer. The notion that large coalitions would somehow miss out on information seems to be plucked wholly out of thin air with nothing to support it.

Quote:
Removal of local is not a removal of intel.
Ehm… how should I explain this is the simplest way possible: yes, removing intel on who's in a system is a removal of intel. Specifically, it's the removal of the intel on who's in a system. Mails, on the other hand, provide next to no intel whatsoever — just a simple alarm that you have to go and observe (through local among other things) if you want to get any value out of it. At most, it's a communication of a state change, but the nature of that change is left for the recipient to discover through other means.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2014-03-02 21:24:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Did you just redefine the meanings of "confusing"?
Nope.

Quote:
No one, especially me, is arguing for going back to the previous broken incarnation of sov. As I have repeatedly stated, a fix would involve a number of changes, not simply the removal of timers.
…and yet, the fact remains that the timers serve a purpose and that anything that removes them will have to be replaced with something that serves pretty much the exact same purpose or we're back to the old system. If you're going to have a delaying mechanic, why not have it be… oh… a simple delay?

Quote:
Large ezymode coalitions benefit directly from the mails
…but that's because everyone does. The difference is that large coalitions could trivially compensate for their removal whereas smaller ones could not — that's just the simple advantage of having more people compared to having fewer. The notion that large coalitions would somehow miss out on information seems to be plucked wholly out of thin air with nothing to support it.

Quote:
Removal of local is not a removal of intel.
Ehm… how should I explain this is the simplest way possible: yes, removing intel on who's in a system is a removal of intel. Specifically, it's the removal of the intel on who's in a system. Mails, on the other hand, provide next to no intel whatsoever — just a simple alarm that you have to go and observe (through local among other things) if you want to get any value out of it. At most, it's a communication of a state change, but the nature of that change is left for the recipient to discover through other means.

lol. removal of local in the sense of mails is not a removal of intel since it would only directly affect those systems that are unoccupied. No local in a system with no one in it is not a removal of intel. Try again.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2014-03-02 21:34:07 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

lol. removal of local in the sense of mails is not a removal of intel since it would only directly affect those systems that are unoccupied. No local in a system with no one in it is not a removal of intel. Try again.



Are you seriously arguing "if a tree falls in a forest and there is no one to hear it?"

Really? I mean really.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#64 - 2014-03-02 21:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
removal of local in the sense of mails is not a removal of intel since it would only directly affect those systems that are unoccupied.
“In the sense of mails” nothing. I'm talking about the removal of local in the sense of removal of local, and no matter what, the removal of local is still a removal of intel. You no longer have any information on who's in the system with you. Mails on the other hand, provide almost zero intel — it's just a structure reporting its own state and nothing about its environment.

Onictus wrote:
Are you seriously arguing "if a tree falls in a forest and there is no one to hear it?"

Really? I mean really.
He kind of is, yes. But it's more a case of “hearing is not a source of information because I might not be around to use it”.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2014-03-02 21:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Onictus wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

lol. removal of local in the sense of mails is not a removal of intel since it would only directly affect those systems that are unoccupied. No local in a system with no one in it is not a removal of intel. Try again.



Are you seriously arguing "if a tree falls in a forest and there is no one to hear it?"

Really? I mean really.

No I'm arguing that if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one to hear it it shouldn't send a mail to advise its fallen over. All intel should be player gathered disregarding map statistics.


Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
removal of local in the sense of mails is not a removal of intel since it would only directly affect those systems that are unoccupied.
“In the sense of mails” nothing. I'm talking about the removal of local in the sense of removal of local, and no matter what, the removal of local is still a removal of intel. You no longer have any information on who's in the system with you. Mails on the other hand, provide almost zero intel — it's just a structure reporting its own state and nothing about its environment.

Onictus wrote:
Are you seriously arguing "if a tree falls in a forest and there is no one to hear it?"

Really? I mean really.
He kind of is, yes. But it's more a case of “hearing is not a source of information because I might not be around to use it”.

There was no mention of removing local so the point your attempting to stitch together is irrelevant.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#66 - 2014-03-02 22:06:05 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Infinity Ziona wrote:
No I'm arguing that if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one to hear it it shouldn't send a mail to advise its fallen over. All intel should be player gathered disregarding map statistics.


No, you're arguing because a few months ago you failed to take down a Goon poco while solo. Oh, and that you have claimed that pocos are sov assets.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2014-03-02 22:14:56 UTC
If a tree falls in the forest, will it have a reinforcement timer?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#68 - 2014-03-02 23:11:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
There was no mention of removing local so the point your attempting to stitch together is irrelevant.

You said that “intel should be a responsibility of the player, not the server” and since local is one of the biggest sources of automatic and passive intel in the game, it only follows that you feel that local should be removed. It doesn't say much about what you want to do with structure mails, though, since the intel they provide is close to nil. When one arrives, the players will still have the responsibility to go there and find out what's happening (in part using local).

You tried to negate this obvious conclusion by saying that it's only intel if you're there to see it, which fits the saying of trees in woods to a T.

Quote:
I"m not interested in your personal attacks, derails or non-topic specific opinions.
…you're only interested in providing all of those yourself.

By the way, you keep saying that removing the automation will hurt the big guys. How does that make sense? As a rule, the purpose of automation is to let fewer people do more with less. If you remove the automation, who do you think will be affected more: the ones with manpower to spare or those without?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2014-03-03 02:05:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
If a tree falls in the forest, will it have a reinforcement timer?

Only if its on a nullsec planet, other planets we have to actually deal with tree v tree when it happens.


Tippia wrote:

As a rule, the purpose of automation is to let fewer people do more with less. If you remove the automation, who do you think will be affected more: the ones with manpower to spare or those without?

Already explained it.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#70 - 2014-03-03 02:52:18 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
If a tree falls in the forest, will it have a reinforcement timer?

Only if its on a nullsec planet, other planets we have to actually deal with tree v tree when it happens.

Uh no, starbases and player-owned customs offices have reinforcement timers everywhere. The only reason nothing else does outside of nullsec is because nothing outside of nullsec is conquerable to any meaningful degree.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2014-03-03 03:05:27 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
If a tree falls in the forest, will it have a reinforcement timer?

Only if its on a nullsec planet, other planets we have to actually deal with tree v tree when it happens.

Uh no, starbases and player-owned customs offices have reinforcement timers everywhere. The only reason nothing else does outside of nullsec is because nothing outside of nullsec is conquerable to any meaningful degree.

They do which is a very poor non-sandbox mechanic implemented by a null sec player turned dev turned PL member. Its no wonder its such a one sided alliance protective system eh.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#72 - 2014-03-03 03:09:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Already explained it.
…but then, I wasn't asking about explanations was I? I asked you who'd be affected more: those who have the manpower to spend or those who don't? Who is better served by automation (which, as mentioned, lets fewer people do more with less): the small guy who has fewer people at their disposal, or the big guy who doesn't have that problem?

You were probably trying to answer some completely different question but maybe you should have quoted that one instead if that were the case. You've also made a lot of assumptions, but haven't offered anything resembling an explanation that actually takes reality into consideration.

Quote:
They do which is a very poor non-sandbox mechanic implemented by a null sec player turned dev turned PL member.
…ignoring the fact that he wasn't a dev when they were introduced. So no, they weren't.
Oh, and what does the sandbox (or lack thereof) have to do with them?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#73 - 2014-03-03 03:21:31 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
If a tree falls in the forest, will it have a reinforcement timer?

Only if its on a nullsec planet, other planets we have to actually deal with tree v tree when it happens.

Uh no, starbases and player-owned customs offices have reinforcement timers everywhere. The only reason nothing else does outside of nullsec is because nothing outside of nullsec is conquerable to any meaningful degree.

They do which is a very poor non-sandbox mechanic implemented by a null sec player turned dev turned PL member. Its no wonder its such a one sided alliance protective system eh.


I better message CCP Rise, to let him know that he's taking the heat for reinforcement timers.

Do you even play this game? Or at least, google things before you just start making **** up off the top of your head?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#74 - 2014-03-03 03:25:23 UTC
Trit wrote:


I have said in the past and say again and contiue to say that the best fix for tidi dogpiles is to hold pilots from jumping into a tidi effected system until the systems time has caught up with the out of system time.



Or you could have all the big battles on an entirely different system and just have people magically transported there through their warp tunnels so the rest of EVE doesn't have to put up with the crap.

It's getting a bit silly to be in a system with 2 other people and suddenly experience TiDi that is happening 50 jumps away.

All this has done is encourage fleets to field more people and now we're right back where we were 5 years ago when hours and hours of the infamous "Black Screen of Death" was our reward for joining a big fight... and then you read about the killmails 2 days later.



"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
MasterAsher
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2014-03-03 04:06:15 UTC
I don't know why people think nerfing projection will change anything. Has everyone forgotten about alts? So now instead of alliances requiring just one account they will want only people with multiple ones to preposition them.

You can't nerf projection without making it illegal to have more than one account and ccp will never do that.
Spurty
#76 - 2014-03-03 04:08:38 UTC
What if when're tidi happened, the chance of a shield harmony cascade could occur.

The odd ship explodes and send a shock wave (huge smart bomb) out.

CCP could just punish blobs that way.

Bring too many and you will randomly explode.

Doesn't stop you collecting thousands of blues but good luck of you try to have them all in the same location for a fight

That's how id do tidi version 2

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Spurty
#77 - 2014-03-03 04:10:05 UTC
These forums on an iPhone are so frock in painful

I give up fixing the autocorrect lol

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2014-03-03 05:41:05 UTC
MasterAsher wrote:
I don't know why people think nerfing projection will change anything. Has everyone forgotten about alts? So now instead of alliances requiring just one account they will want only people with multiple ones to preposition them.

You can't nerf projection without making it illegal to have more than one account and ccp will never do that.


Oh yeah? Have you forgotten about space aliens with 8 arms and 80 fingers?

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2014-03-03 06:01:29 UTC
But it just insulted me!

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2014-03-03 06:06:24 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
MasterAsher wrote:
I don't know why people think nerfing projection will change anything. Has everyone forgotten about alts? So now instead of alliances requiring just one account they will want only people with multiple ones to preposition them.

You can't nerf projection without making it illegal to have more than one account and ccp will never do that.


Oh yeah? Have you forgotten about space aliens with 8 arms and 80 fingers?


******* tyranids.