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FIX for tidi dogpiles

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#41 - 2014-03-02 06:43:55 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
At high TIDI's you could have a queue based system to filter people in more randomly. If there are 3500 people in system and 10% TiDi then as people die slots become available and other people are allowed to enter.

If you have a fleet of 250 people and you cyno or jump into a system you're queued until 250 people leave system or a timer expires whichever comes first.

Sort of like Jita and I know many many people in this thread fully support the queues in Jita.


baltec1 wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
The problem is sov mechanics, it doesn't even make sense that in a space game you'd have magical shields with timers, if someone wants to take a system they shouldn't need to wait 24 hours to take it. You go to a system attack, and if no one can defend the system in time its yours.

The only complaint about this is that super mega blob alliances might find it more difficult to manage these huge renter systems, and might not be able to monopolize all of the space if they can't organize a force within 24 hours to blob the system to death.


I've always felt with way too. Timers are a handicap and should be removed. If you can't defend your space in all time zones you shouldn't have it.


We have capital fleets large enough to grind through 100 systems in 72 hours. A station and all sov structures can be burned in as little as 30 mnutes and a POS wont even last 5 minutes.

Without times it will be impossible to hold sov space and outposts would be usless.

Largely irrelevant to the issue. The issue you're raising Baltec is not timers its your ability to chew through 100 systems in 72 hours, stations and sov structures in 30 minutes and POS in 5.

That's more an issue with capitals, the population of the CFC putting it 30th on the smallest countries in the world list and the ability to jump all over EVE in no time at all. Not timers.


Take away the ability to jump all over eve instantly and you also remove a defenders ability to respond to an attack. So we still burn up a system in 30 minutes and are gone before the defenders can even form a fleet. Remove timers and you will make it impossible to hold space or defend a POS.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2014-03-02 07:08:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
At high TIDI's you could have a queue based system to filter people in more randomly. If there are 3500 people in system and 10% TiDi then as people die slots become available and other people are allowed to enter.

If you have a fleet of 250 people and you cyno or jump into a system you're queued until 250 people leave system or a timer expires whichever comes first.

Sort of like Jita and I know many many people in this thread fully support the queues in Jita.


baltec1 wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
The problem is sov mechanics, it doesn't even make sense that in a space game you'd have magical shields with timers, if someone wants to take a system they shouldn't need to wait 24 hours to take it. You go to a system attack, and if no one can defend the system in time its yours.

The only complaint about this is that super mega blob alliances might find it more difficult to manage these huge renter systems, and might not be able to monopolize all of the space if they can't organize a force within 24 hours to blob the system to death.


I've always felt with way too. Timers are a handicap and should be removed. If you can't defend your space in all time zones you shouldn't have it.


We have capital fleets large enough to grind through 100 systems in 72 hours. A station and all sov structures can be burned in as little as 30 mnutes and a POS wont even last 5 minutes.

Without times it will be impossible to hold sov space and outposts would be usless.

Largely irrelevant to the issue. The issue you're raising Baltec is not timers its your ability to chew through 100 systems in 72 hours, stations and sov structures in 30 minutes and POS in 5.

That's more an issue with capitals, the population of the CFC putting it 30th on the smallest countries in the world list and the ability to jump all over EVE in no time at all. Not timers.


Take away the ability to jump all over eve instantly and you also remove a defenders ability to respond to an attack. So we still burn up a system in 30 minutes and are gone before the defenders can even form a fleet. Remove timers and you will make it impossible to hold space or defend a POS.

While this is true its only true because of the current broken mechanics and player behavior based on these mechanics.

In a timerless world there would likely be less incentive to plop a POS on every moon in game. You would only put POS on very valuable moons and only if they could be defended. There would likely be more centralized alliances that reside in smaller amounts of space that negates the need to be able to zip all over the galaxy. Successful alliances would have a more broad timezone based player list rather than all US or all Russian or UK.

But at the end of the day the real issue is the way that the mechanics were changed to make EVE into doughnut shaped map rather than the original pocket based map. In the doughnut you can spread as far as you like, around the entire map and there is a regional jump / or cyno distance jump pretty much anywhere you need to go.

Huge sov holding alliances would be at a disadvantage, while you may be able to blob a system up in Fountain, not being able to instantly travel down to Delve, PB, up to Tenal would mean you're taking one system while smaller local forces are taking 3, 5, 10 systems that you don't really have the ability to defend.

Sure you could split up and do the same but that makes you vulnerable to equally smaller fleets meaning your one I WIN card, the CFC 37k membership blobbage factor is mitigated and you will take losses, both as you travel down in subcaps or if you split your cap forces up.

Having said that, removal of timers by itself is not the answer, nothing as complicated as EvE sov problems will be fixed by changing a single issue, it will take a macroscopic and well thought out number of changes to fix sov.

Edit: Oh one more thing, it may not actually be timers that need changing. Perhaps simply removing the automated emails from the system would be a step in the right direction. While a smaller centralized alliance would likely notice one of their precious systems being reinforced it would a lot less likely that a CFC based alliance, which doesn't even exist in a practical sense in many systems would fail to notice.

And at the very least, it would mean to hold those systems you would have to at least have 1 alt to log in every few hours to check . Players should win the game, not the server winning it for them.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Anonymous Player
Alt Shift Q
#43 - 2014-03-02 07:34:18 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
At high TIDI's you could have a queue based system to filter people in more randomly. If there are 3500 people in system and 10% TiDi then as people die slots become available and other people are allowed to enter.

If you have a fleet of 250 people and you cyno or jump into a system you're queued until 250 people leave system or a timer expires whichever comes first.

Sort of like Jita and I know many many people in this thread fully support the queues in Jita.




The difference is, you are not "defending" Jita. It is a minor annoyance at BEST to have a queue to enter Jita. When you are talking about defending your space, there is a HUGE difference than just running to Jita to grab a spare part for your ship.

(Second post following, stupid forum software sucks, said I had too many quotes...)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#44 - 2014-03-02 07:51:24 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

While this is true its only true because of the current broken mechanics and player behavior based on these mechanics.

In a timerless world there would likely be less incentive to plop a POS on every moon in game. You would only put POS on very valuable moons and only if they could be defended. There would likely be more centralized alliances that reside in smaller amounts of space that negates the need to be able to zip all over the galaxy. Successful alliances would have a more broad timezone based player list rather than all US or all Russian or UK.

But at the end of the day the real issue is the way that the mechanics were changed to make EVE into doughnut shaped map rather than the original pocket based map. In the doughnut you can spread as far as you like, around the entire map and there is a regional jump / or cyno distance jump pretty much anywhere you need to go.

Huge sov holding alliances would be at a disadvantage, while you may be able to blob a system up in Fountain, not being able to instantly travel down to Delve, PB, up to Tenal would mean you're taking one system while smaller local forces are taking 3, 5, 10 systems that you don't really have the ability to defend.

Sure you could split up and do the same but that makes you vulnerable to equally smaller fleets meaning your one I WIN card, the CFC 37k membership blobbage factor is mitigated and you will take losses, both as you travel down in subcaps or if you split your cap forces up.

Having said that, removal of timers by itself is not the answer, nothing as complicated as EvE sov problems will be fixed by changing a single issue, it will take a macroscopic and well thought out number of changes to fix sov.

Edit: Oh one more thing, it may not actually be timers that need changing. Perhaps simply removing the automated emails from the system would be a step in the right direction. While a smaller centralized alliance would likely notice one of their precious systems being reinforced it would a lot less likely that a CFC based alliance, which doesn't even exist in a practical sense in many systems would fail to notice.

And at the very least, it would mean to hold those systems you would have to at least have 1 alt to log in every few hours to check . Players should win the game, not the server winning it for them.


Removing timers is not an answer at all. I did structure grinds before we had the massive cap fleets and before the age of jump bridgest. Taking several fleets of battleships across EVE is not hard and we will still have the ability to wipe out a system in 30 min. If you remove timers we would helicopterdick our way across all of EVE, it would be impossible to hold any outpost and moon goo POS would die before they even make back the isk invested in them.

The only place people would live in would be NPC null because outposts would be far to easy to take.
Anonymous Player
Alt Shift Q
#45 - 2014-03-02 07:52:17 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
"The problem is sov mechanics, it doesn't even make sense that in a space game you'd have magical shields with timers, if someone wants to take a system they shouldn't need to wait 24 hours to take it. You go to a system attack, and if no one can defend the system in time its yours.

The only complaint about this is that super mega blob alliances might find it more difficult to manage these huge renter systems, and might not be able to monopolize all of the space if they can't organize a force within 24 hours to blob the system to death."


"I've always felt with way too. Timers are a handicap and should be removed. If you can't defend your space in all time zones you shouldn't have it."


"We have capital fleets large enough to grind through 100 systems in 72 hours. A station and all sov structures can be burned in as little as 30 mnutes and a POS wont even last 5 minutes.

Without times it will be impossible to hold sov space and outposts would be usless."


"Largely irrelevant to the issue. The issue you're raising Baltec is not timers its your ability to chew through 100 systems in 72 hours, stations and sov structures in 30 minutes and POS in 5.

That's more an issue with capitals, the population of the CFC putting it 30th on the smallest countries in the world list and the ability to jump all over EVE in no time at all. Not timers."


"Take away the ability to jump all over eve instantly and you also remove a defenders ability to respond to an attack. So we still burn up a system in 30 minutes and are gone before the defenders can even form a fleet. Remove timers and you will make it impossible to hold space or defend a POS."


"While this is true its only true because of the current broken mechanics and player behavior based on these mechanics.

In a timerless world there would likely be less incentive to plop a POS on every moon in game. You would only put POS on very valuable moons and only if they could be defended. There would likely be more centralized alliances that reside in smaller amounts of space that negates the need to be able to zip all over the galaxy. Successful alliances would have a more broad timezone based player list rather than all US or all Russian or UK.

But at the end of the day the real issue is the way that the mechanics were changed to make EVE into doughnut shaped map rather than the original pocket based map. In the doughnut you can spread as far as you like, around the entire map and there is a regional jump / or cyno distance jump pretty much anywhere you need to go.

Huge sov holding alliances would be at a disadvantage, while you may be able to blob a system up in Fountain, not being able to instantly travel down to Delve, PB, up to Tenal would mean you're taking one system while smaller local forces are taking 3, 5, 10 systems that you don't really have the ability to defend.

Sure you could split up and do the same but that makes you vulnerable to equally smaller fleets meaning your one I WIN card, the CFC 37k membership blobbage factor is mitigated and you will take losses, both as you travel down in subcaps or if you split your cap forces up.

Having said that, removal of timers by itself is not the answer, nothing as complicated as EvE sov problems will be fixed by changing a single issue, it will take a macroscopic and well thought out number of changes to fix sov.

Edit: Oh one more thing, it may not actually be timers that need changing. Perhaps simply removing the automated emails from the system would be a step in the right direction. While a smaller centralized alliance would likely notice one of their precious systems being reinforced it would a lot less likely that a CFC based alliance, which doesn't even exist in a practical sense in many systems would fail to notice.

And at the very least, it would mean to hold those systems you would have to at least have 1 alt to log in every few hours to check . Players should win the game, not the server winning it for them.



I fail to see how "huge sov holding alliances would be at a disadvantage". They could easily split their forces up, and still have bigger groups than the attackers. Granted, most of the time in "blob alliances" the individual members are generally as skilled or skillful with PVP, but if you take away instant travel (Assuming you mean cyno and bridge...), there are plenty of chokepoints that are much harder to get a fleet past than it is to get a cloaky cyno alt past. Cover the chokepoints, and you'll never have to worry about losing interior sectors, at least not without ample notice and a chance to reinforce. It would force alliances to spread their assets out to multiple staging areas if they planned on owning a bunch of space, but I don't see how it would really solve the problems with current sov mechanics.

Removing timers I think would generate enough problems. You would NOT see a significant jump in small alliances actually owning space. Maybe for a while, but then you get a mid-size or even a large alliance that doesn't care about owning systems that can nomadically sweep through regions destroying billions of ISK worth of POSes and such, cleaning out the smaller alliances.
Anonymous Player
Alt Shift Q
#46 - 2014-03-02 07:57:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

While this is true its only true because of the current broken mechanics and player behavior based on these mechanics.

In a timerless world there would likely be less incentive to plop a POS on every moon in game. You would only put POS on very valuable moons and only if they could be defended. There would likely be more centralized alliances that reside in smaller amounts of space that negates the need to be able to zip all over the galaxy. Successful alliances would have a more broad timezone based player list rather than all US or all Russian or UK.

But at the end of the day the real issue is the way that the mechanics were changed to make EVE into doughnut shaped map rather than the original pocket based map. In the doughnut you can spread as far as you like, around the entire map and there is a regional jump / or cyno distance jump pretty much anywhere you need to go.

Huge sov holding alliances would be at a disadvantage, while you may be able to blob a system up in Fountain, not being able to instantly travel down to Delve, PB, up to Tenal would mean you're taking one system while smaller local forces are taking 3, 5, 10 systems that you don't really have the ability to defend.

Sure you could split up and do the same but that makes you vulnerable to equally smaller fleets meaning your one I WIN card, the CFC 37k membership blobbage factor is mitigated and you will take losses, both as you travel down in subcaps or if you split your cap forces up.

Having said that, removal of timers by itself is not the answer, nothing as complicated as EvE sov problems will be fixed by changing a single issue, it will take a macroscopic and well thought out number of changes to fix sov.

Edit: Oh one more thing, it may not actually be timers that need changing. Perhaps simply removing the automated emails from the system would be a step in the right direction. While a smaller centralized alliance would likely notice one of their precious systems being reinforced it would a lot less likely that a CFC based alliance, which doesn't even exist in a practical sense in many systems would fail to notice.

And at the very least, it would mean to hold those systems you would have to at least have 1 alt to log in every few hours to check . Players should win the game, not the server winning it for them.


Removing timers is not an answer at all. I did structure grinds before we had the massive cap fleets and before the age of jump bridgest. Taking several fleets of battleships across EVE is not hard and we will still have the ability to wipe out a system in 30 min. If you remove timers we would helicopterdick our way across all of EVE, it would be impossible to hold any outpost and moon goo POS would die before they even make back the isk invested in them.

The only place people would live in would be NPC null because outposts would be far to easy to take.



By helicopterdick, I am assuming you mean what I had said in my previous post about nomadically smashing through systems without worrying about trying to "own" them, you just want to kill things?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-03-02 08:12:47 UTC
Anonymous Player wrote:

I fail to see how "huge sov holding alliances would be at a disadvantage". They could easily split their forces up, and still have bigger groups than the attackers. Granted, most of the time in "blob alliances" the individual members are generally as skilled or skillful with PVP, but if you take away instant travel (Assuming you mean cyno and bridge...), there are plenty of chokepoints that are much harder to get a fleet past than it is to get a cloaky cyno alt past. Cover the chokepoints, and you'll never have to worry about losing interior sectors, at least not without ample notice and a chance to reinforce. It would force alliances to spread their assets out to multiple staging areas if they planned on owning a bunch of space, but I don't see how it would really solve the problems with current sov mechanics.

Removing timers I think would generate enough problems. You would NOT see a significant jump in small alliances actually owning space. Maybe for a while, but then you get a mid-size or even a large alliance that doesn't care about owning systems that can nomadically sweep through regions destroying billions of ISK worth of POSes and such, cleaning out the smaller alliances.

It creates headaches for the CFC style alliances because they're propped up artificially by server timers and server emails. Historically as empires have grown they've become more vulnerable to smaller groups since part of vast empire management is vast empire strategy to have an army at strategic locations to put down unrest. That brought with it significant overheads and logistical problems.

Unfortunately in EvE CCP have neglected to included an overhead cost for having a massive supercap fleet, not much we can do about that. But the strategic element and logistical issues should be a problem for CFC. They're current not since they have 24 hours to deploy and they have instant non-player intel from the server the moment someone shoots something.

---

To answer the question how they would be at a disadvantage, lets just consider that currently they can go through a region in a day or less, reinforce every single structure, POS, station and then return 24 hours later and take them all. So nothing changes for them if they have timers removed.

In terms of defense, smaller entities might be able to reinforce one or two systems. Then have to turn up in 24 hours to get wtfpwned by CFC.

With a change to timers, emails, if CFC doesn't actively do intel rather than rely on the server, they lose a system without even realizing it was reinforced. CFC is a largely US based alliance which means they're vulnerable to alliances that have lots of members in different time zones. They rely on timers to protect them when they're not online rather than relying on players.

So I would say it doesn't change much in terms of what CFC can do with its 37k+ players but it changes a lot what others can do to the CFC with smaller numbers if the CFC doesn't actively defend its assets.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#48 - 2014-03-02 08:16:55 UTC
Anonymous Player wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

While this is true its only true because of the current broken mechanics and player behavior based on these mechanics.

In a timerless world there would likely be less incentive to plop a POS on every moon in game. You would only put POS on very valuable moons and only if they could be defended. There would likely be more centralized alliances that reside in smaller amounts of space that negates the need to be able to zip all over the galaxy. Successful alliances would have a more broad timezone based player list rather than all US or all Russian or UK.

But at the end of the day the real issue is the way that the mechanics were changed to make EVE into doughnut shaped map rather than the original pocket based map. In the doughnut you can spread as far as you like, around the entire map and there is a regional jump / or cyno distance jump pretty much anywhere you need to go.

Huge sov holding alliances would be at a disadvantage, while you may be able to blob a system up in Fountain, not being able to instantly travel down to Delve, PB, up to Tenal would mean you're taking one system while smaller local forces are taking 3, 5, 10 systems that you don't really have the ability to defend.

Sure you could split up and do the same but that makes you vulnerable to equally smaller fleets meaning your one I WIN card, the CFC 37k membership blobbage factor is mitigated and you will take losses, both as you travel down in subcaps or if you split your cap forces up.

Having said that, removal of timers by itself is not the answer, nothing as complicated as EvE sov problems will be fixed by changing a single issue, it will take a macroscopic and well thought out number of changes to fix sov.

Edit: Oh one more thing, it may not actually be timers that need changing. Perhaps simply removing the automated emails from the system would be a step in the right direction. While a smaller centralized alliance would likely notice one of their precious systems being reinforced it would a lot less likely that a CFC based alliance, which doesn't even exist in a practical sense in many systems would fail to notice.

And at the very least, it would mean to hold those systems you would have to at least have 1 alt to log in every few hours to check . Players should win the game, not the server winning it for them.


Removing timers is not an answer at all. I did structure grinds before we had the massive cap fleets and before the age of jump bridgest. Taking several fleets of battleships across EVE is not hard and we will still have the ability to wipe out a system in 30 min. If you remove timers we would helicopterdick our way across all of EVE, it would be impossible to hold any outpost and moon goo POS would die before they even make back the isk invested in them.

The only place people would live in would be NPC null because outposts would be far to easy to take.



By helicopterdick, I am assuming you mean what I had said in my previous post about nomadically smashing through systems without worrying about trying to "own" them, you just want to kill things?


Grinding structures is something we enjoy doing. We would simply move a subcap fleet into a system and then dump a whole dread fleet onto the target. We would deadzone most of nullsec within 2 months.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2014-03-02 08:22:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Anonymous Player wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

While this is true its only true because of the current broken mechanics and player behavior based on these mechanics.

In a timerless world there would likely be less incentive to plop a POS on every moon in game. You would only put POS on very valuable moons and only if they could be defended. There would likely be more centralized alliances that reside in smaller amounts of space that negates the need to be able to zip all over the galaxy. Successful alliances would have a more broad timezone based player list rather than all US or all Russian or UK.

But at the end of the day the real issue is the way that the mechanics were changed to make EVE into doughnut shaped map rather than the original pocket based map. In the doughnut you can spread as far as you like, around the entire map and there is a regional jump / or cyno distance jump pretty much anywhere you need to go.

Huge sov holding alliances would be at a disadvantage, while you may be able to blob a system up in Fountain, not being able to instantly travel down to Delve, PB, up to Tenal would mean you're taking one system while smaller local forces are taking 3, 5, 10 systems that you don't really have the ability to defend.

Sure you could split up and do the same but that makes you vulnerable to equally smaller fleets meaning your one I WIN card, the CFC 37k membership blobbage factor is mitigated and you will take losses, both as you travel down in subcaps or if you split your cap forces up.

Having said that, removal of timers by itself is not the answer, nothing as complicated as EvE sov problems will be fixed by changing a single issue, it will take a macroscopic and well thought out number of changes to fix sov.

Edit: Oh one more thing, it may not actually be timers that need changing. Perhaps simply removing the automated emails from the system would be a step in the right direction. While a smaller centralized alliance would likely notice one of their precious systems being reinforced it would a lot less likely that a CFC based alliance, which doesn't even exist in a practical sense in many systems would fail to notice.

And at the very least, it would mean to hold those systems you would have to at least have 1 alt to log in every few hours to check . Players should win the game, not the server winning it for them.


Removing timers is not an answer at all. I did structure grinds before we had the massive cap fleets and before the age of jump bridgest. Taking several fleets of battleships across EVE is not hard and we will still have the ability to wipe out a system in 30 min. If you remove timers we would helicopterdick our way across all of EVE, it would be impossible to hold any outpost and moon goo POS would die before they even make back the isk invested in them.

The only place people would live in would be NPC null because outposts would be far to easy to take.



By helicopterdick, I am assuming you mean what I had said in my previous post about nomadically smashing through systems without worrying about trying to "own" them, you just want to kill things?


Grinding structures is something we enjoy doing. We would simply move a subcap fleet into a system and then dump a whole dread fleet onto the target. We would deadzone most of nullsec within 2 months.

That's only possible because (1) you have the ability to drop dreads all over EVE with trivial logistics and almost no risk (2) a ridiculously large coalition.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#50 - 2014-03-02 08:22:59 UTC
Also, if we remove timers how are you going to compete with our supercap fleet?

Do you honestly think you could defend a CSAA tower for a full 8 weeks when we only need a whole 5 minutes to kill it?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2014-03-02 08:23:52 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Anonymous Player wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

While this is true its only true because of the current broken mechanics and player behavior based on these mechanics.

In a timerless world there would likely be less incentive to plop a POS on every moon in game. You would only put POS on very valuable moons and only if they could be defended. There would likely be more centralized alliances that reside in smaller amounts of space that negates the need to be able to zip all over the galaxy. Successful alliances would have a more broad timezone based player list rather than all US or all Russian or UK.

But at the end of the day the real issue is the way that the mechanics were changed to make EVE into doughnut shaped map rather than the original pocket based map. In the doughnut you can spread as far as you like, around the entire map and there is a regional jump / or cyno distance jump pretty much anywhere you need to go.

Huge sov holding alliances would be at a disadvantage, while you may be able to blob a system up in Fountain, not being able to instantly travel down to Delve, PB, up to Tenal would mean you're taking one system while smaller local forces are taking 3, 5, 10 systems that you don't really have the ability to defend.

Sure you could split up and do the same but that makes you vulnerable to equally smaller fleets meaning your one I WIN card, the CFC 37k membership blobbage factor is mitigated and you will take losses, both as you travel down in subcaps or if you split your cap forces up.

Having said that, removal of timers by itself is not the answer, nothing as complicated as EvE sov problems will be fixed by changing a single issue, it will take a macroscopic and well thought out number of changes to fix sov.

Edit: Oh one more thing, it may not actually be timers that need changing. Perhaps simply removing the automated emails from the system would be a step in the right direction. While a smaller centralized alliance would likely notice one of their precious systems being reinforced it would a lot less likely that a CFC based alliance, which doesn't even exist in a practical sense in many systems would fail to notice.

And at the very least, it would mean to hold those systems you would have to at least have 1 alt to log in every few hours to check . Players should win the game, not the server winning it for them.


Removing timers is not an answer at all. I did structure grinds before we had the massive cap fleets and before the age of jump bridgest. Taking several fleets of battleships across EVE is not hard and we will still have the ability to wipe out a system in 30 min. If you remove timers we would helicopterdick our way across all of EVE, it would be impossible to hold any outpost and moon goo POS would die before they even make back the isk invested in them.

The only place people would live in would be NPC null because outposts would be far to easy to take.



By helicopterdick, I am assuming you mean what I had said in my previous post about nomadically smashing through systems without worrying about trying to "own" them, you just want to kill things?


Grinding structures is something we enjoy doing. We would simply move a subcap fleet into a system and then dump a whole dread fleet onto the target. We would deadzone most of nullsec within 2 months.

That's only possible because (1) you have the ability to drop dreads all over EVE with trivial logistics and almost no risk (2) a ridiculously large coalition.


Neither of which would change.
Trit
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2014-03-02 14:53:57 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Let me tell you a story about why this is a bad idea and why TiDi is the best thing to happen to nullsec.

Back in the days of BRUCE a common tactic was to get your fleet into the system first and drop all your drones. Since there was no TiDi yet, when the enemy fleet jumped into your fleet a huge chunk of them would desync or crash. TiDi fixed this by just making time run slower for everyone so that you can't get the lag advantage by being in the system before your opponent.

If we go with your plan, then you're bringing this tactic back. The new strategy will be to cause TiDi in the system before your opponent can get there so that they can't even fight you. This would be bad.

I find it funny when people whine about TiDi because it shows they never lived in the good old days of nullsec warfare. Trust me. TiDi is the best thing they ever did when revamping null.



I have played this game since just after Beta, I have always played in null, since before goons and even before BoB. Since the days that a roaming gang of 10 battleships caused people to come and look at the incredible desplay of wealth.

Dont tell me that I dont understand this or that flavor of the months projecting goon dominance etc etc etc.

TiDi is a piece of crap solution but I agree that it is the best solution availablke since we the player base continue to dogpile hundreds and thousands of players into a system.

Just because TiDi is the best opetion available doesnt mean it is a good option.

I stick to point and no matter what words I choose to use retards like you will not understand.

If time is linear (it is) then time in system A progress at normal rate.
System B is the target of the TiDi monster and time progresses at 10 percent of normal.
Therefore 2 hours in system A is the same as 12 minutes in system B.

Therefore when jumping into a TiDi system you have jumped 108 minutes into the past.

This is wrong. It unfairly and inappropriately allows force projection.

When in the Warp tunnel or stasis or however you want to look at it time acually stops and you wait until time in the TiDi system catches up and then you can jump in.

Not a good solution for these issues but neither is TiDi.

Shine on Crazy Nubbins
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#53 - 2014-03-02 15:09:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Trit wrote:
Just because TiDi is the best opetion available doesnt mean it is a good option.
Actually, it rather does. You're just horribly confused about what it's a solution for.

Quote:
This is wrong. It unfairly and inappropriately allows force projection.
How is it wrong to be able to join a fight in progress? How is it unfair when it applies equally to everyone? How does it “inappropriately allow force projection” when your suggested alternative is to make it possible to use force projection to allow people to win without a fight? That, if anything, sounds far more inappropriate than a system that puts everyone on equal basis.

Quote:
Not a good solution for these issues but neither is TiDi.
What issue? You keep babbling about “timelines” as if it was in any shape or form a meaningful or applicable concept. It's not. Everything happens at the same time.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
While this is true its only true because of the current broken mechanics and player behavior based on these mechanics.

[…]

But at the end of the day the real issue is the way that the mechanics were changed to make EVE into doughnut shaped map rather than the original pocket based map.
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Why are you so adamant to go back to a system that was abandoned because it made for awful and meaningless gameplay?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2014-03-02 16:43:08 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

That's only possible because (1) you have the ability to drop dreads all over EVE with trivial logistics and almost no risk (2) a ridiculously large coalition.


Trivial logistics?

You have never moved a large capital fleet.
Trit
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2014-03-02 16:55:05 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

That's only possible because (1) you have the ability to drop dreads all over EVE with trivial logistics and almost no risk (2) a ridiculously large coalition.


Trivial logistics?

You have never moved a large capital fleet.



Thanks for bringing this topic back on the rails.

Shine on Crazy Nubbins
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#56 - 2014-03-02 17:04:59 UTC
Trit wrote:
Thanks for bringing this topic back on the rails.
Maybe you shouldn't have gone off the rails to begin with, hmm…?

So where were we? Oh yes:
How is it wrong to be able to join a fight in progress? How is it unfair when it applies equally to everyone? How does it “inappropriately allow force projection” when your suggested alternative is to make it possible to use force projection to allow people to win without a fight? What is the actual issue you're trying to solve here? Timelines and simultaneity are just lore fluff that takes a back seat to actual gameplay — if that's what bothers you, just say “the warpdrive did it”.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2014-03-02 19:59:59 UTC
Basically regarding Tippia, its best to just ignore. It makes statements of fact based on fantasy and likes to redefine words at will.

Regarding the "we could take over EvE without timers" given the size of CFC they can take any system with timers, at the same speed with timers, as without timers.

Reinforcing 20 systems and then coming back 24 hours later and taking those 20 systems would take about as long as reinforcing the systems and taking the systems on the fly. So its a moot point.

The above argument is basically, "why fix a broken system when we're so big we'd just continue to steamroll over the rest of EVE with impunity just like we're doing now". Its simply coated in a dishonest "you would hurt the little guy" sweet batter. I'm sure any non-cfc is not going to buy that you're all "worried about the little guy".

As I said in another thread, removing AUTOMATED EMAILS, not necessarily timers, exposes the large bloated easymode coalitions who hold thousands of systems without actually inhabiting or using. It exposes them to attacks, many of which won't be noticed until too late, and sudden loss of sovereignty.

If CFC hold 1000 systems but they only have people in 700 systems that leaves 300 systems that would be vulnerable to being stealthily attacked and taken except there is a server system that does intel for the CFC, dispatching an email the moment one of their empty systems infrastructure is attacked.


The above should not happen, intel should be a responsibility of the player, not the server.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#58 - 2014-03-02 20:14:43 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Basically regarding Tippia, its best to just ignore. It makes statements of fact based on fantasy and likes to redefine words at will.
You're confusing me with you. Especially the “it” part. Do you have anything to support this or is it just a pathetic attempt at dehumanising someone because you can't actually address the facts and arguments being presented to you?

Quote:
The above argument is basically, "why fix a broken system when we're so big we'd just continue to steamroll over the rest of EVE with impunity just like we're doing now".
No, the argument is “why break the system even more, especially since we already know how poorly it would work?” No-one is arguing against a fix, only against your notion that going back to a system that was no-one really missed when they removed it.

Quote:
As I said in another thread, removing AUTOMATED EMAILS, not necessarily timers, exposes the large bloated easymode coalitions who hold thousands of systems without actually inhabiting or using. It exposes them to attacks, many of which won't be noticed until too late, and sudden loss of sovereignty.
Large easymode coalitions will be pretty much untouched by such a change — in fact, it would probably be the preferred setup to cope with the mechanic.

Quote:
The above should not happen, intel should be a responsibility of the player, not the server.
So you're saying that they should remove local?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2014-03-02 20:49:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Basically regarding Tippia, its best to just ignore. It makes statements of fact based on fantasy and likes to redefine words at will.
You're confusing me with you. Especially the “it” part. Do you have anything to support this or is it just a pathetic attempt at dehumanising someone because you can't actually address the facts and arguments being presented to you?

Quote:
The above argument is basically, "why fix a broken system when we're so big we'd just continue to steamroll over the rest of EVE with impunity just like we're doing now".
No, the argument is “why break the system even more, especially since we already know how poorly it would work?” No-one is arguing against a fix, only against your notion that going back to a system that was no-one really missed when they removed it.

Quote:
As I said in another thread, removing AUTOMATED EMAILS, not necessarily timers, exposes the large bloated easymode coalitions who hold thousands of systems without actually inhabiting or using. It exposes them to attacks, many of which won't be noticed until too late, and sudden loss of sovereignty.
Large easymode coalitions will be pretty much untouched by such a change — in fact, it would probably be the preferred setup to cope with the mechanic.

Quote:
The above should not happen, intel should be a responsibility of the player, not the server.
So you're saying that they should remove local?

Did you just redefine the meanings of "confusing"?

No one, especially me, is arguing for going back to the previous broken incarnation of sov. As I have repeatedly stated, a fix would involve a number of changes, not simply the removal of timers. Though the removal of mails by itself would be a major improvement imo.

Large ezymode coalitions benefit directly from the mails, while smaller entities do not. Smaller entities tend to inhabit owned systems and would notice a big red reinforcement timer or a fleet in system while bigger coalitions that don't even reside in their systems would not. Therefore removal of mails would harm the bigger coalitions artificially holding sov and benefit the smaller groups who actually do hold it.

Removal of local is not a removal of intel. If a blobalition is not in a system then whether a fleet is in local is irrelevent. No intel is given simply by the existance of local. That requires a PLAYER to be in system to see the fleet in local or the reinforcement timer in system. Mails on the other hand are instant, unavoidable and require no player effort in the system being attacked.

Mails imo are the primary mechanic by which large blobalitions hold huge swathes of space they otherwise do not use or inhabit.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#60 - 2014-03-02 20:57:43 UTC
Trit wrote:
indiana bones wrote:
So what... you expect people to sit in warp tunnels for what can, and probably would be, hours on end? What?

Edit: Also, this would also mean whoever gets into system first wins. That's exactly what TiDi is meant to stop.

You've really not thought this through, have you?



well thought through. Jumping through a gate into a TiDi system is the same as jumping back into time.

That should not be possible. So yes if you want to join a fight in a TiDi sysme get there when it starts or wait till time catches up and join in.

There is no way pilots from the future should be able to effect a fight that technically occured in the past.

And if you cannot understand that then you are the lolz.

When Ive been in TiDi I noticed the eve time clock at the bottom left of the screen continued to show exactly the same time as it did for everyone else. How can I be in the past when its exactly the same time as everywhere else?

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