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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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My Sandbox is Becoming a Themepark

First post
Author
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#341 - 2014-03-01 00:47:57 UTC
One reason I don't tend to use dscan in highsec is that with how populated it is, useful results tend to also come with a lot of noise.
Evilishah
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#342 - 2014-03-01 00:59:26 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:

I don't love having my billion isk mission ship being blown up when there is nothing i can do about it.
I don't love being horrified to touch anything in high sec for fear of turning suspect.


I'd be inclined to agree up to a point.

There is a problem though. High sec isn't just safe (relatively), it is insanely profitable.

Were high sec 100% safe, it should be hugely nerfed for profitability requiring runs into low and null to even have a chance at purchasing something like a Marauder. In either case, we are both pipe-dreaming.

Eve is incredibly unique in that not only is our starter area also our "end game", it is the easiest activity in Eve, the most profitable activity in Eve, and one of the safest activities in Eve.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#343 - 2014-03-01 01:20:58 UTC
Rowells wrote:

So, force players to do something they may or may not want to do. That doesnt sound very sanbox-like to me. If they don't want to learn anything new that's up to them.



Learning to play the game isn't about "forced". If you don't want to actually play the game, then don't log in.

Yes, it is up to "them" if they want to autopilot, if they want to not fit tank, if they want to haul waaaay too much stuff.

There are consequences to doing stupid things, however. Trying to take the consequences away isn't acceptable.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#344 - 2014-03-01 01:23:31 UTC
Evilishah wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:

I don't love having my billion isk mission ship being blown up when there is nothing i can do about it.
I don't love being horrified to touch anything in high sec for fear of turning suspect.


I'd be inclined to agree up to a point.

There is a problem though. High sec isn't just safe (relatively), it is insanely profitable.

Were high sec 100% safe, it should be hugely nerfed for profitability requiring runs into low and null to even have a chance at purchasing something like a Marauder. In either case, we are both pipe-dreaming.

Eve is incredibly unique in that not only is our starter area also our "end game", it is the easiest activity in Eve, the most profitable activity in Eve, and one of the safest activities in Eve.


This is part of the argument.

Highsec almost is 100% safe. The only reason people die at all is from doing stupid things and actively failing to take care of themselves.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#345 - 2014-03-01 01:31:45 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
then we can actually have an honest discussion about it among the players. Instead of a derailing contest between one group of players, and one group of self interested afk robots.


I would love to see a thread like this where the two sides actually had a civil and intelligent discussion on the matter rather than the business as usual that we usually see.

I think everyone wants a better game but one side always sees the other side as trying to "ruin" it regardless of how beneficial the suggested change is to everyone. Too many conspiracy theories - too little trust. Honestly, if people really want to make the game better they need to submit their suggestions with the "others" needs and wants in mind. Otherwise, it will always devolve into a barrage of flying crap.


I agree, but here's the thing.

Not all of the "needs and wants" are valid. I want CONCORD to go away, or at least be tankable. I recognize that's not going to happen, certainly not the first one.

But when people like me say "The game is too safe" people like Hawkeye or ashley or our new friend Divine Intervention pop up and say things like "well people still die at all so that's not true!".

One is a reasonable statement, the other is an unreasonable one. To suggest that people aren't supposed to die (in highsec, or anywhere) is totally against the spirit of EVE, and the concept of MMO and multiplayer games entirely.

And that's where the real selfishness comes from. Because when I say "more people need to be dying", they think it means them, personally. They cannot take their self interest out of the equation, and as a result are not fit to discuss the topic in the first place, since they stand for a position that should not be allowed to happen.

That's where my "Spelunking Mario" comment comes into play, btw. Because they don't want to play EVE. They want to play something that is not EVE, and they think they get to do it in EVE. They're behaving in a fashion contrary to what the game actually is, and rather than change themselves or how they're playing, they complain and say that there should be trampolines in the formerly bottomless pits.


The issue is if you're going to blow up 10 hours of my life i spent farming missions for isk, i want it to be more fun then scram, web, and wait to die because i touched a yellow box i shouldn't have. There is also the classic get 1 shotted by a couple nados, that's always a fun way to lose 10 hours of my life.

I want a fighting chance, i want the high sec gankers to put as much at risk as i am. I want a chance to learn something in pvp that isn't well i shouldn't have done that and now i'm boned by someone who does this for a living.
ashley Eoner
#346 - 2014-03-01 01:33:39 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Evilishah wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:

I don't love having my billion isk mission ship being blown up when there is nothing i can do about it.
I don't love being horrified to touch anything in high sec for fear of turning suspect.


I'd be inclined to agree up to a point.

There is a problem though. High sec isn't just safe (relatively), it is insanely profitable.

Were high sec 100% safe, it should be hugely nerfed for profitability requiring runs into low and null to even have a chance at purchasing something like a Marauder. In either case, we are both pipe-dreaming.

Eve is incredibly unique in that not only is our starter area also our "end game", it is the easiest activity in Eve, the most profitable activity in Eve, and one of the safest activities in Eve.


This is part of the argument.

Highsec almost is 100% safe. The only reason people die at all is from doing stupid things and actively failing to take care of themselves.


Sounds like you need to engage in some "emergent gameplay" then!


What shall we do about the great blue wall in nullsec that makes whole sections almost to 100% safe?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#347 - 2014-03-01 01:42:48 UTC
Reset standings and burn it down?

I really don't understand people who live in deep null and don't see that bluesec is an order of magnitude safer than highsec.
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#348 - 2014-03-01 01:45:23 UTC
Evilishah wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:

I don't love having my billion isk mission ship being blown up when there is nothing i can do about it.
I don't love being horrified to touch anything in high sec for fear of turning suspect.


I'd be inclined to agree up to a point.

There is a problem though. High sec isn't just safe (relatively), it is insanely profitable.

Were high sec 100% safe, it should be hugely nerfed for profitability requiring runs into low and null to even have a chance at purchasing something like a Marauder. In either case, we are both pipe-dreaming.

Eve is incredibly unique in that not only is our starter area also our "end game", it is the easiest activity in Eve, the most profitable activity in Eve, and one of the safest activities in Eve.


I agree high sec profitability needs to be toned down to encourage missioners to travel to null. I don't agree with dropping the security features in high sec to allow for easier ganking as the OP wants.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#349 - 2014-03-01 01:59:10 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Learning to play the game isn't about "forced". If you don't want to actually play the game, then don't log in.

Yes, it is up to "them" if they want to autopilot, if they want to not fit tank, if they want to haul waaaay too much stuff.

There are consequences to doing stupid things, however. Trying to take the consequences away isn't acceptable.

Define playing the game then. There are so many aspects to eve that I consider playing. That's why I love this game. There are so many things to do. In 4 years time i still haven't done everything. I haven't learned everything. So you're also going to have to define learning the game as well while you're at it. Learn what specifically? is there a certain skillpath and playstyle everyone was supposed to start from the beginning? Did half of Eve players mess up when they decided not to go down the same road as you?

On that note, define doing stupid things. This is a sandbox. If someone is good at something, no matter what it's related too, how is it stupid? Is it because it's not what you like to do? Is it because you think it's boring? Why is doing something that you don't want to do stupid?

And who's taking away the consequences? and for that matter, consequences for what? What have they done wrong by playing the game how it was made? How have they broken any rules or put anyone else at a disadvantage? You say consequences as if someone playing the game the way they enjoy it is wrong or bad. I'm not suggesting you take away consequences for amnything. They are already there. If you think someone is doing something wrong, then go fix it yourself. It's not CCP's job to enforce the playstyle you believe in.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#350 - 2014-03-01 02:02:20 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:

The issue is if you're going to blow up 10 hours of my life i spent farming missions for isk, i want it to be more fun then scram, web, and wait to die because i touched a yellow box i shouldn't have. There is also the classic get 1 shotted by a couple nados, that's always a fun way to lose 10 hours of my life.

I want a fighting chance, i want the high sec gankers to put as much at risk as i am. I want a chance to learn something in pvp that isn't well i shouldn't have done that and now i'm boned by someone who does this for a living.


Heh, well, firstly, you're being awfully defensive about "10 hours of my life". You're clearly too attached to your ship, for whatever reason.

Secondly, you're talking about this like you think you should get an honorable 1v1 at the sun. You don't get some honorable gudfite like that. If you actually want that, you should give the duel system a try.

You want them to put in as much risk as you are? Then fit and fly right. You won't even get a second look. it's as easy as that.

You're looking at it from the closing act, because that's all you personally see. But by the time the hammer falls, you've likely already lost. The whole ounce of prevention thing applies pretty heavily on this kind of thing.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#351 - 2014-03-01 02:06:01 UTC
Quote:
On that note, define doing stupid things.


Autopilot's a big one.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#352 - 2014-03-01 02:15:49 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:
I agree high sec profitability needs to be toned down to encourage missioners to travel to null. I don't agree with dropping the security features in high sec to allow for easier ganking as the OP wants.


The objective is not getting missioners into NullSec. The objective is to get more alts of NullSec residents back into NullSec.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#353 - 2014-03-01 02:16:26 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:


The issue is if you're going to blow up 10 hours of my life i spent farming missions for isk, i want it to be more fun then scram, web, and wait to die because i touched a yellow box i shouldn't have. There is also the classic get 1 shotted by a couple nados, that's always a fun way to lose 10 hours of my life.

I want a fighting chance, i want the high sec gankers to put as much at risk as i am. I want a chance to learn something in pvp that isn't well i shouldn't have done that and now i'm boned by someone who does this for a living.


if no'1 in the OP becomes a reality, this will be half solved.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#354 - 2014-03-01 02:26:41 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:


The issue is if you're going to blow up 10 hours of my life i spent farming missions for isk, i want it to be more fun then scram, web, and wait to die because i touched a yellow box i shouldn't have. There is also the classic get 1 shotted by a couple nados, that's always a fun way to lose 10 hours of my life.

I want a fighting chance, i want the high sec gankers to put as much at risk as i am. I want a chance to learn something in pvp that isn't well i shouldn't have done that and now i'm boned by someone who does this for a living.


if no'1 in the OP becomes a reality, this will be half solved.

That's kinda questionable. PvP fits vary. And what performs well against one target may not perform as well against another, or perhaps even more of the same. I can see how more PvP like PvE could result in better PvP capable fittings, but that doesn't change the fact that an intruding aggressor is now closer to a 2v1 PvP scenario when you were fitted for a 1v1.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#355 - 2014-03-01 02:27:22 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Autopilot's a big one.
Could you elaborate? Seems to me like it can and is used as a smart tool.
Organic Lager
Drinking Buddies
#356 - 2014-03-01 02:28:18 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:

The issue is if you're going to blow up 10 hours of my life i spent farming missions for isk, i want it to be more fun then scram, web, and wait to die because i touched a yellow box i shouldn't have. There is also the classic get 1 shotted by a couple nados, that's always a fun way to lose 10 hours of my life.

I want a fighting chance, i want the high sec gankers to put as much at risk as i am. I want a chance to learn something in pvp that isn't well i shouldn't have done that and now i'm boned by someone who does this for a living.


Heh, well, firstly, you're being awfully defensive about "10 hours of my life". You're clearly too attached to your ship, for whatever reason.

Secondly, you're talking about this like you think you should get an honorable 1v1 at the sun. You don't get some honorable gudfite like that. If you actually want that, you should give the duel system a try.

You want them to put in as much risk as you are? Then fit and fly right. You won't even get a second look. it's as easy as that.

You're looking at it from the closing act, because that's all you personally see. But by the time the hammer falls, you've likely already lost. The whole ounce of prevention thing applies pretty heavily on this kind of thing.


No one likes to lose their ship, especially when it takes so long to save up to buy and fit a proper l4 ship.

No i don't think it's fair someone in a pvp fit ship worth 1/10 the price should be able to completely wreck me

I should always run with a warp scram and a web?

Players don't learn anything in high sec pvp except trust no one, don't touch anything and warp off if someone comes to your site. As you put it, "you've already lost before the hammer falls."

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with high sec as it is now security wise. I don't think we should even be considering dropping the shields to allow easier missioner bullying as this post is about. Randomizing triggers, increasing pirate ai or lowering the rewards to make null more appealing. Any of these are fine ways to encourage missioners to check out other game features and prevent the semi-afk style play.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#357 - 2014-03-01 02:28:24 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Organic Lager wrote:
I agree high sec profitability needs to be toned down to encourage missioners to travel to null. I don't agree with dropping the security features in high sec to allow for easier ganking as the OP wants.


The objective is not getting missioners into NullSec. The objective is to get more alts of NullSec residents back into NullSec.


Bingo. Right now, between the safety and profitability of highsec, there is little incentive to generate personal income anywhere else.

All areas of space need to be viable to LIVE in. Not just hang around and day trip now and then.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#358 - 2014-03-01 02:29:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
This is part of the argument.

Highsec almost is 100% safe. The only reason people die at all is from doing stupid things and actively failing to take care of themselves.
Can you explain this? The only real difference between highsec and other space is that unsolicited engagement guarantees ship loss (well, that and the increased population adding noise to intel tools) but the ability to engage is still there. What about that balance is so off to you?

Edit: Nevermind, saw you comments on concord below.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#359 - 2014-03-01 02:40:25 UTC
Organic Lager wrote:


No one likes to lose their ship, especially when it takes so long to save up to buy and fit a proper l4 ship.


It's not really that bad. You can get into a Raven and start blowing through missions with less than 250 mil. Now if you're talking bling, then it's a different ballgame.



Quote:
No i don't think it's fair someone in a pvp fit ship worth 1/10 the price should be able to completely wreck me


Luckily for game balance as a whole, pricetag doesn't determine who wins fights. Nor should it. Because even a hint of something like that might as well be telling new players that they shouldn't bother, ever.


Quote:
I should always run with a warp scram and a web?


Depends on your fit, of course. If you're intending to attack anything, certainly.

Quote:
Players don't learn anything in high sec pvp except trust no one, don't touch anything and warp off if someone comes to your site. As you put it, "you've already lost before the hammer falls."


Likely already lost, btw. Nothing is guaranteed. And you need to think about something else:

Because of CONCORD, suicide ganking is a very binary thing. Kill the guy and win, or fail to kill him and lose. Either way, the ganker's ship is gone. CONCORD is the very reason why they fight the way they do, with overwhelming force. That's why if you encounter one, they drop the hammer. They aren't incentivized to play any other way.

CONCORD is the problem with what you're talking about.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#360 - 2014-03-01 02:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Organic Lager wrote:
I agree high sec profitability needs to be toned down to encourage missioners to travel to null. I don't agree with dropping the security features in high sec to allow for easier ganking as the OP wants.


Overwhelmingly, missioners didn't follow L5s into lowsec. They will certainly be even less likely to travel to null. What will happen is the same as what always happens: either they will continue to mission despite the reduced income or they will simply quit EVE altogether.