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My Sandbox is Becoming a Themepark

First post
Author
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#321 - 2014-02-28 23:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

I'm not saying it needs to be reversed.

I'm saying it needs to be balanced. It's not balanced right now.

I would say it's not balanced because it's not very deep. In most cases it's either a matter of "are you tackled?" Being that it's so boolean, it's hard to balance.

That said, mashing the DSCAN every 2 sec is not really what i would call the epitome of interactive social gaming.


There are plenty of things that need fixed, is what you're trying to say.

What I'm trying to say is that this is one of them.

The need for, and usefulness of D-scan doesn't go away just because it's "boring". As far as highsec is concerned, the only problem with D-scan is that it requires you to pay any attention at all, the amount is not relevant.

If it can't be done while afk "highsec" at large doesn't want anything to do with it.

Their attitudes are a result of the cradle of safety they've been swaddled in for too long. That needs fixed, then we can actually have an honest discussion about it among the players. Instead of a derailing contest between one group of players, and one group of self interested afk robots.

Because you can't convince people to play the game correctly if the option to play it wrong and still win exists.

No, I'm not saying there are plenty of things that need fixed persay, I'm saying that the one you are complaining about, given current fitting and combat realities, doesn't leave room for balancing. That would inherently necessitate changes to provide ways to toggle balance, but that's not really relevant here.

The need for and usefulness of DSCAN being coupled to it's current incarnation is actually, exactly my point on the second part. I'm not sure how you conflated paying attention with "KEEP MASHING BUTTAN," but the 2 are not the same. Most people don't use it due to a combination of effort and probability of attack. If it were passive and part of a more dynamic system I would bet money on increased usage and awareness.

Fixing that would also probably go a really long way towards eliminating these sweeping generalizations that poison these conversations.
Victoria Thorne
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#322 - 2014-02-28 23:08:51 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
then we can actually have an honest discussion about it among the players. Instead of a derailing contest between one group of players, and one group of self interested afk robots.


I would love to see a thread like this where the two sides actually had a civil and intelligent discussion on the matter rather than the business as usual that we usually see.

I think everyone wants a better game but one side always sees the other side as trying to "ruin" it regardless of how beneficial the suggested change is to everyone. Too many conspiracy theories - too little trust. Honestly, if people really want to make the game better they need to submit their suggestions with the "others" needs and wants in mind. Otherwise, it will always devolve into a barrage of flying crap.



Personally, I'd love to see missions that encourage pvp fits. Require a warp scrambler to keep a mission target from escaping. Make npc spawns more unpredictable & have reinforcements from different factions, encouraging Omni-tanking, rather than mission fitting.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#323 - 2014-02-28 23:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
then we can actually have an honest discussion about it among the players. Instead of a derailing contest between one group of players, and one group of self interested afk robots.


I would love to see a thread like this where the two sides actually had a civil and intelligent discussion on the matter rather than the business as usual that we usually see.

I think everyone wants a better game but one side always sees the other side as trying to "ruin" it regardless of how beneficial the suggested change is to everyone. Too many conspiracy theories - too little trust. Honestly, if people really want to make the game better they need to submit their suggestions with the "others" needs and wants in mind. Otherwise, it will always devolve into a barrage of flying crap.


I agree, but here's the thing.

Not all of the "needs and wants" are valid. I want CONCORD to go away, or at least be tankable. I recognize that's not going to happen, certainly not the first one.

But when people like me say "The game is too safe" people like Hawkeye or ashley or our new friend Divine Intervention pop up and say things like "well people still die at all so that's not true!".

One is a reasonable statement, the other is an unreasonable one. To suggest that people aren't supposed to die (in highsec, or anywhere) is totally against the spirit of EVE, and the concept of MMO and multiplayer games entirely.

And that's where the real selfishness comes from. Because when I say "more people need to be dying", they think it means them, personally. They cannot take their self interest out of the equation, and as a result are not fit to discuss the topic in the first place, since they stand for a position that should not be allowed to happen.

That's where my "Spelunking Mario" comment comes into play, btw. Because they don't want to play EVE. They want to play something that is not EVE, and they think they get to do it in EVE. They're behaving in a fashion contrary to what the game actually is, and rather than change themselves or how they're playing, they complain and say that there should be trampolines in the formerly bottomless pits.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#324 - 2014-02-28 23:25:47 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

not sure how you conflated paying attention with "KEEP MASHING BUTTAN," but the 2 are not the same.


I'll have a longer reply for the rest of your post later, but I just wanted to address this before I get on the road.

It's not "push button, have safety". It's "push button, have to make a determination and a decision".

That's why it's not used by most people in highsec. Because they want some binary guarantee of safety.

If D-scan were something passive, for example, that told you when a warp in on your grid happened, it would give more safety to people who didn't do it correctly, in exchange for nothing on their part. No effort, more safety.

That is bad.

D-scan also has tons of meta uses by using it to hunt people, etc, also. It's a complex tool, and it can't just be replaced by something passive without negatively effecting quite a bit of the game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

ashley Eoner
#325 - 2014-02-28 23:29:24 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
then we can actually have an honest discussion about it among the players. Instead of a derailing contest between one group of players, and one group of self interested afk robots.


I would love to see a thread like this where the two sides actually had a civil and intelligent discussion on the matter rather than the business as usual that we usually see.

I think everyone wants a better game but one side always sees the other side as trying to "ruin" it regardless of how beneficial the suggested change is to everyone. Too many conspiracy theories - too little trust. Honestly, if people really want to make the game better they need to submit their suggestions with the "others" needs and wants in mind. Otherwise, it will always devolve into a barrage of flying crap.


I agree, but here's the thing.

Not all of the "needs and wants" are valid. I want CONCORD to go away, or at least be tankable. I recognize that's not going to happen, certainly not the first one.

But when people like me say "The game is too safe" people like Hawkeye or ashley or our new friend Divine Intervention pop up and say things like "well people still die at all so that's not true!".

One is a reasonable statement, the other is an unreasonable one. To suggest that people aren't supposed to die (in highsec, or anywhere) is totally against the spirit of EVE, and the concept of MMO and multiplayer games entirely.

And that's where the real selfishness comes from. Because when I say "more people need to be dying", they think it means them, personally. They cannot take their self interest out of the equation, and as a result are not fit to discuss the topic in the first place, since they stand for a position that should not be allowed to happen.

That's where my "Spelunking Mario" comment comes into play, btw. Because they don't want to play EVE. They want to play something that is not EVE, and they think they get to do it in EVE. They're behaving in a fashion contrary to what the game actually is, and rather than change themselves or how they're playing, they complain and say that there should be trampolines in the formerly bottomless pits.
Removal of concord and by extension highsec would result in a very quick death of the game. There's a reason for concord and highsec and anyone that played in beta knows that. People get sick of the 24/7 curbstomp really quickly once they are always on the receiving end. Of course you have no fear of that fate thanks to your connections and current standings so naturally you desire the ability to be the curbstomper.

Since CCP is not allowing you to freely curbstomp the helpless you QQ about those that defend CCP's defense of the helpless. Helpless of course being relative as they are only helpless in the face of your superior numbers and isk.


EDIT : You have the ability to make Highsec less safe at any time with emergent gameplay. You are just too lazy to do it. Instead you prefer to spam the forums with demands for a free seal clubber card.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#326 - 2014-02-28 23:39:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
ashley Eoner wrote:
Since CCP is not allowing you to freely curbstomp the helpless you QQ about those that defend CCP's defense of the helpless. Helpless of course being relative as they are only helpless in the face of your superior numbers and isk.


Ashley, I want you to consider how many times we read the phrase, "Why do gankers always go after defenseless ->insert profession archetype here<-"

PvP Enthusiasts do not make people helpless or defenseless. People who do not seek help (i.e. playing solo) or who do not defend their assets (i.e. fitting horrible tanks and blinging out mission fits full of deadspace) make themselves helpless and defenseless. Is this playing solo or poor fitting decisions something you feel we should encourage?

Please consider that for a moment before you reply. I would like a well-thought out and reasoned response not a knee jerk response please. Smile

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#327 - 2014-02-28 23:43:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Posting in a rant thread.

Also: "remove gate guns from lowsec" is pure comedy gold.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#328 - 2014-02-28 23:45:00 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Posting in a rant thread.


Nah. The ranting pretty much dropped right out immediately after it was given the kiss of death of being moved to F&I. Big smile

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

ashley Eoner
#329 - 2014-02-28 23:46:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Kimmi Chan wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Since CCP is not allowing you to freely curbstomp the helpless you QQ about those that defend CCP's defense of the helpless. Helpless of course being relative as they are only helpless in the face of your superior numbers and isk.


Ashley, I want you to consider how many times we read the phrase, "Why do gankers always go after defenseless ->insert profession archetype here<-"

PvP Enthusiasts do not make people helpless or defenseless. People who do not seek help (i.e. playing solo) or who do not defend their assets (i.e. fitting horrible tanks and blinging out mission fits full of deadspace) make themselves helpless and defenseless. Is this playing solo or poor fitting decisions something you feel we should encourage?

Please consider that for a moment before you reply. I would like a well-thought out and reasoned response not a knee jerk response please. Smile

You're taking my comments out of context. My comments were merely in the context of an environment where Concord and by extension highsec has been removed. The person I responded to had stated such an environment as being his wish/desire. In such an environment even proper fitting is meaningless as those with the faster connection and the bigger numbers will win most of the fights.

That means your entire post is meaningless and has no relevance.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#330 - 2014-02-28 23:48:12 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Since CCP is not allowing you to freely curbstomp the helpless you QQ about those that defend CCP's defense of the helpless. Helpless of course being relative as they are only helpless in the face of your superior numbers and isk.


Ashley, I want you to consider how many times we read the phrase, "Why do gankers always go after defenseless ->insert profession archetype here<-"

PvP Enthusiasts do not make people helpless or defenseless. People who do not seek help (i.e. playing solo) or who do not defend their assets (i.e. fitting horrible tanks and blinging out mission fits full of deadspace) make themselves helpless and defenseless. Is this playing solo or poor fitting decisions something you feel we should encourage?

Please consider that for a moment before you reply. I would like a well-thought out and reasoned response not a knee jerk response please. Smile

You're taking my comments out of context. My comments were merely in the context of an environment where Concord and by extension highsec has been removed. The person I responded to had stated such an environment as being his wish/desire.

That means your entire post is meaningless and has no relevance.


I see. So in the context of Kaarous' dreamworld then?

Fair enough.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

ashley Eoner
#331 - 2014-02-28 23:51:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Kimmi Chan wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Since CCP is not allowing you to freely curbstomp the helpless you QQ about those that defend CCP's defense of the helpless. Helpless of course being relative as they are only helpless in the face of your superior numbers and isk.


Ashley, I want you to consider how many times we read the phrase, "Why do gankers always go after defenseless ->insert profession archetype here<-"

PvP Enthusiasts do not make people helpless or defenseless. People who do not seek help (i.e. playing solo) or who do not defend their assets (i.e. fitting horrible tanks and blinging out mission fits full of deadspace) make themselves helpless and defenseless. Is this playing solo or poor fitting decisions something you feel we should encourage?

Please consider that for a moment before you reply. I would like a well-thought out and reasoned response not a knee jerk response please. Smile

You're taking my comments out of context. My comments were merely in the context of an environment where Concord and by extension highsec has been removed. The person I responded to had stated such an environment as being his wish/desire.

That means your entire post is meaningless and has no relevance.


I see. So in the context of Kaarous' dreamworld then?

Fair enough.

Proper fitting wouldn't even matter as undocking without a fleet to back you up would be a death sentence. If anything it would encourage bad fits and bad players as skill would be a non factor. Newbie starting areas would be camped 24/7 and no new players would stay longer then the first couple times being ganked on undock. It would be exceedingly dumb as witnessed +10 years ago. After the word spread that Eve was hopeless to join there would be nothing left but the giant powerblocks who would then be forced to turn on each other out of boredom. Eventually eve would atrophy to a small number of "hardcore" players who hide in the vastness of space from other people. Eve would no longer be a MMO and the social element would be non existent as people would fear letting their name be known as active. Locator agent based ganking would ensure that result.

Even the most hardcore of games like lineage 2 tradewars and space merchant had methods of protecting players. Lineage 2 and such tend to restrict PVP inside towns (while FFA everywhere else with minor gank penalties). Those same games also tended to have some sort of transportation method safe from gankers allowing people to move when camped. Tradewars relied on non combat areas and the limited technology of the era (not a lot of people could be signed in at the same time so you had a good chance of a fair fight) while spacemerchant relied on whole sections of space being non combat. Without concord to enforce the relatively non-consensual combat aspect of the game there would be no relatively safe areas.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#332 - 2014-02-28 23:51:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

not sure how you conflated paying attention with "KEEP MASHING BUTTAN," but the 2 are not the same.


I'll have a longer reply for the rest of your post later, but I just wanted to address this before I get on the road.

It's not "push button, have safety". It's "push button, have to make a determination and a decision".

That's why it's not used by most people in highsec. Because they want some binary guarantee of safety.

If D-scan were something passive, for example, that told you when a warp in on your grid happened, it would give more safety to people who didn't do it correctly, in exchange for nothing on their part. No effort, more safety.

That is bad.

D-scan also has tons of meta uses by using it to hunt people, etc, also. It's a complex tool, and it can't just be replaced by something passive without negatively effecting quite a bit of the game.

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
If it were passive and part of a more dynamic system I would bet money on increased usage and awareness.
Allow me to expound upon this as it apparently didn't have the intended meaning. DSCAN needs reworked as part of a complete overhaul of situational awareness tools. It, like other things, needs to be decoupled from perfect intel so that it's power isn't only limited by pure annoyance.

But really, the term "people in highsec" is getting pretty presumptuous at this point. The only reason I don't use DSCAN more often is the interface with the tool. I can't be the only one. Furthermore you can't accurately qualify what people will do with information they aren't currently getting.
Maekchu
Doomheim
#333 - 2014-03-01 00:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Maekchu
hellokittyonline wrote:
People seem to be under the impression that we gank because we hold some insane grudge against carebears but this is quite simply not the case (most of the time). The fact of the matter is, most of us joined this game thinking that there was an actual PvP profession in which we could fund our fun with something WE CAN ACTUALLY ENJOY DOING. I think I speak for a large portion of the PvP community when I say that we do not enjoy mindlessly farming for space bucks.
After having read most of the thread, I stumbled upon this part, which I think captures an essential problem. Now, I don't want to engage in an online catfight between "griefers" and carebears, since I think both have a valid playstyle. Just do what you enjoy.

However, I also think that the game needs some love when it comes to smaller scale PvP. Especially for frigate enthusiasts like myself :P But personal gains aside, small scale PvP really needs some more focus.

With the addition of the POCOs in highsec, it is clear CCP wants more PvP. I think it was a great addition. Just not one affecting myself, since some of us, prefer smaller engages or solo PvP.

FW was that promise, and sure it was exciting. But it has devolved into a farm fest. If you want to play with stabs and cloaks, be my guest. But such complexes needs to be flagged, so I can make a judgement whether I want to chase a ghost , before I warp into the plex. Cause when 80-90% of the times I warp into a plex, just to find out he is stabbed or cloaked. I just start to get physically sick. I just want a "good fight". If anyone takes the time to look up my killboard, they will see that I don't give a damn about my killboard efficiency. I just want a place to fight, whether I win or die. I honestly don't give a damn, since I have 50 more Rifters just waiting to get exploded.

And EVE just don't have such a place for people anymore (FW is garbage, sec tags just didn't attract enough people and Null is empty... Like really empty). There is some PvP to be had for bigger alliances, struggling over in-game resources (be that POCOs or SOV). But for us lonely pirates, that just wants to fly around space blowing **** up, while enjoying our freedom from major corporations and their power struggle... We are only left with blowing up the random miner, explorer, cyno, ratter or otherwise "lost" traveler in space.

I'm not saying that there are no fights to be had. But you really need to look hard and long for them. Maybe, I'm just doing something wrong. If I do, please educate me and show me the way for good pew pew (pre-arranged fights is not a way). However, my experience tells me, that even being in a permaflashy T1 frigate just sitting in space, is not enough to make people engage you.

I might play this game the wrong way. But since it's a sandbox, I suppose solo (frigate) PvP is also a valid way of playing. I'm not asking CCP to change to game to cater to my "kind". All I want, is just a few more tools to work with.

It's very hard to build a beautiful sandcastle with my broken shovel and littered sand. Throw in some more new tools, so all of us kids get a chance to get a new shovel to play with! :D
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#334 - 2014-03-01 00:01:29 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Allow me to expound upon this as it apparently didn't have the intended meaning. DSCAN needs reworked as part of a complete overhaul of situational awareness tools. It, like other things, needs to be decoupled from perfect intel so that it's power isn't only limited by pure annoyance.

But really, the term "people in highsec" is getting pretty presumptuous at this point. The only reason I don't use DSCAN more often is the interface with the tool. I can't be the only one. Furthermore you can't accurately qualify what people will do with information they aren't currently getting.


I think there is a consensus and it may in fact be a generalization that people in HighSec are lazy and have a sense of entitlement. Now, before you hit reply and start calling me anything but my name, please hear me out.

I've seen posts (and I am happy to dig for them) where people say things similar to the following:

In regards to mining:

I shouldn't have to fit a tank.
I should be able to fit for max yield.

In regards to Jita gates:

I shouldn't have to go somewhere else.
I shouldn't have to use a scout.
I shouldn't have to sit on the gate.

I will agree, Tyberius, that the D-Scan is the most valuable tool that has the worst interface. Speaking as the Devil's Advocate, since I reside full-time in HighSec but am trying to understand the "opposition" in these matters, they use it constantly in Low and Null and WH. Why should we not use it High?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

ashley Eoner
#335 - 2014-03-01 00:04:52 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Allow me to expound upon this as it apparently didn't have the intended meaning. DSCAN needs reworked as part of a complete overhaul of situational awareness tools. It, like other things, needs to be decoupled from perfect intel so that it's power isn't only limited by pure annoyance.

But really, the term "people in highsec" is getting pretty presumptuous at this point. The only reason I don't use DSCAN more often is the interface with the tool. I can't be the only one. Furthermore you can't accurately qualify what people will do with information they aren't currently getting.


I think there is a consensus and it may in fact be a generalization that people in HighSec are lazy and have a sense of entitlement. Now, before you hit reply and start calling me anything but my name, please hear me out.

I've seen posts (and I am happy to dig for them) where people say things similar to the following:

In regards to mining:

I shouldn't have to fit a tank.
I should be able to fit for max yield.

In regards to Jita gates:

I shouldn't have to go somewhere else.
I shouldn't have to use a scout.
I shouldn't have to sit on the gate.

I will agree, Tyberius, that the D-Scan is the most valuable tool that has the worst interface. Speaking as the Devil's Advocate, since I reside full-time in HighSec but am trying to understand the "opposition" in these matters, they use it constantly in Low and Null and WH. Why should we not use it High?
You know you can do the same thing with the nullbears right?

I shouldn't have to go somewhere else to make isk
I should make massive isk just because I sit in a big blue donut in safety because I risked getting here or something (RISK REWARD!!!) You know even though it's their corporation/alliance policies that result in the decreased earnings..

I shouldn't have to dock up cause of afk cloak
I shouldn't have to sit on a gate to find a seal to club.

etc etc


IT's safe to say feeling entitled is a normal state of humanity and as such it exists on all sides of this game.


Why not use it in highsec? Well unlike in WHs or Nul DSCan is useless in highsec. In null and WH you know who the enemy are so when you see them on the scan it matters. In highsec you have no idea who you enemy is and all Dscan does is show you what you already know in local.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#336 - 2014-03-01 00:07:45 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
hellokittyonline wrote:
People seem to be under the impression that we gank because we hold some insane grudge against carebears but this is quite simply not the case (most of the time). The fact of the matter is, most of us joined this game thinking that there was an actual PvP profession in which we could fund our fun with something WE CAN ACTUALLY ENJOY DOING. I think I speak for a large portion of the PvP community when I say that we do not enjoy mindlessly farming for space bucks.
After having read most of the thread, I stumbled upon this part, which I think captures an essential problem. Now, I don't want to engage in an online catfight between "griefers" and carebears, since I think both have a valid playstyle. Just do what you enjoy.

However, I also think that the game needs some love when it comes to smaller scale PvP. Especially for frigate enthusiasts like myself :P But personal gains aside, small scale PvP really needs some more focus.

With the addition of the POCOs in highsec, it is clear CCP wants more PvP. I think it was a great addition. Just not one affecting myself, since some of us, prefer smaller engages or solo PvP.

FW was that promise, and sure it was exciting. But it has devolved into a farm fest. If you want to play with stabs and cloaks, be my guest. But such complexes needs to be flagged, so I can make a judgement whether I want to chase a ghost , before I warp into the plex. Cause when 80-90% of the times I warp into a plex, just to find out he is stabbed or cloaked. I just start to get physically sick. I just want a "good fight". If anyone takes the time to look up my killboard, they will see that I don't give a damn about my killboard efficiency. I just want a place to fight, whether I win or die. I honestly don't give a damn, since I have 50 more Rifters just waiting to get exploded.

And EVE just don't have such a place for people anymore (FW is garbage, sec tags just didn't attract enough people and Null is empty... Like really empty). There is some PvP to be had for bigger alliances, struggling over in-game resources (be that POCOs or SOV). But for us lonely pirates, that just wants to fly around space blowing **** up, while enjoying our freedom from major corporations and their power struggle... We are only left with blowing up the random miner, explorer, cyno, ratter or otherwise "lost" traveler in space.

I'm not saying that there are no fights to be had. But you really need to look hard and long for them. Maybe, I'm just doing something wrong. If I do, please educate me and show me the way for good pew pew (pre-arranged fights is not a way). However, my experience tells me, that even being in a permaflashy T1 frigate just sitting in space, is not enough to make people engage you.

I might play this game the wrong way. But since it's a sandbox, I suppose solo (frigate) PvP is also a valid way of playing. I'm not asking CCP to change to game to cater to my "kind". All I want, is just a few more tools to work with.

It's very hard to build a beautiful sandcastle with my broken shovel and littered sand. Throw in some more new tools, so all of us kids get a chance to get a new shovel to play with! :D


Good post Maekchu. I was in BRRC for a short time. Good people. I can't give you a lot of good advice since PvP isn't my thing but I can tell you what I would do.

Fit a Navy BS with a bunch of shiny and start up a L4 mission and then wait. Osmon, Lanngisi, and Apanake will likely give you your shortest wait times. Have a 2nd alt account with your Rifter standing by orbiting a station and wait for another PvP enthusiast to nick your loot and go suspect. Warp in Rifter and start scramming and shooting.

I agree it's not the most ideal situation but it is one suggestion.

Good luck!

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#337 - 2014-03-01 00:10:38 UTC
hellokittyonline wrote:
PTL;DR - Make players have to learn about the game and its mechanics in order to be successful.

So, force players to do something they may or may not want to do. That doesnt sound very sanbox-like to me. If they don't want to learn anything new that's up to them. Examples of people who do not like being forced into a different playstyle:

Mission runners
Miners
Industrialists
Traders
Non-mission PVE'ers
PVP'ers
Player leadership
Everybody

Summary: Nobody wants to be forced into a playstyle they don't like. If i have found a way to have fun and do it well (reducing risk/increasing effectiveness through skills, investments, tactics) then who is anyone else to tell me to do it any other way? I have multiple accounts just for this reason. Sometimes I enjoy blowing things up/getting blown up. Sometimes I enjoy crunching numbers and streamlining processes for my own benefit. A player should NEVER be forced to play a different way simply because someone else wants them to.

If someone doesn't want to play like you do, that is essentially a sandbox at it's best. Making someone play a different way than they want is not a sandbox.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#338 - 2014-03-01 00:11:46 UTC
Maekchu wrote:
If anyone takes the time to look up my killboard, they will see that I don't give a damn about my killboard efficiency.


Confirming the above statement.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#339 - 2014-03-01 00:16:43 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
You know you can do the same thing with the nullbears right?

I shouldn't have to go somewhere else to make isk
I should make massive isk just because I sit in a big blue donut in safety because I risked getting here or something (RISK REWARD!!!) You know even though it's their corporation/alliance policies that result in the decreased earnings..

I shouldn't have to dock up cause of afk cloak
I shouldn't have to sit on a gate to find a seal to club.

etc etc


IT's safe to say feeling entitled is a normal state of humanity and as such it exists on all sides of this game.


I suppose that's true. Unfortunate, but true.

ashley Eoner wrote:
Why not use it in highsec? Well unlike in WHs or Nul DSCan is useless in highsec. In null and WH you know who the enemy are so when you see them on the scan it matters. In highsec you have no idea who you enemy is and all Dscan does is show you what you already know in local.


I think that is the point of contention that Kaarous may be speaking of. The safety in HighSec is such that most of the tools that other people are using are completely ignored in HighSec, again as a result of the safety side of the argument.

Understand Ashley, I am not advocating for either side of this issue. I would just like to see people engage in the discussion without all the blather of personal attacks, repetition of the "party line", or any speculative or ideological rhetoric. I hope you don't mind.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#340 - 2014-03-01 00:17:02 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
I will agree, Tyberius, that the D-Scan is the most valuable tool that has the worst interface. Speaking as the Devil's Advocate, since I reside full-time in HighSec but am trying to understand the "opposition" in these matters, they use it constantly in Low and Null and WH. Why should we not use it High?

We've already established that it has use in highsec. As for why people don't use it? It's up to aggressor activity to make that worthwhile. If they don't see the reward on a particular target as being worthwhile enough to put them in a situation where DSCAN can be leveraged, that isn't inherently an issue that needs solving.