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How to utterly demolish bot mining easily
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2014-03-01 20:30:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Unfortuneately the OP is rather an extreme solution, pretty much burning down your house to stop the birds roosting on the roof.
If CCP were determined to root out bots, then I am sure they would have succeeded by now.
It is more likely that they accept it as part of the overall economy by now.
You say that as if the house is the only part of the land that is habitable. If the birds are enough of a problem, torching the house may be an effective treatment. It's not something you mourn over and whine about, you torch the house and get it done with. No birds, no problem.

I am certain CCP accepts bots as part of the economy. Given the amount of time it takes to whip up some building materials, it is a given that players will not want to be counted on to do it themselves. There was no way around it initially when the game was released. But I think the right direction to move in is any way that causes players to produce more for themselves without forcing them to work any harder. Slow and gradual steps is good. Maybe someday bot mining will be uncommon.



epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Or is it just another stealth nerf hisec thread?
I didn't intend it to be stealth.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
DSpite Culhach
#62 - 2014-03-01 23:43:22 UTC
As I have mentioned in other posts, I am becoming really wary to suggest fixes to just "hisec problems".

On that note, EVE mining seems to be the least developed mechanic in the game. All I can say on the subject is that it would be nice if the whole system was revamped a bit.

In my opinion, a player that is active at the keyboard while mining should be able to pull more ore than one that starts the process and goes and reads a book. Don't get me wrong, BOTH methods should be a valid way to mine, but one should reward you more, the billion ISK question is how to do that, and since I heard about ring mining, I'd been awaiting to see if that was going to be the way. One day.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
KiithSoban
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#63 - 2014-03-02 01:44:49 UTC  |  Edited by: KiithSoban
Perhaps I don't understand.

How does production currently work? Do you need a portion of your materials from highsec ores and a portion from lowsec/nullsec ores? Is the proportion of these materials out of balance? Is that what you are suggesting?

I know t2 production is like this, but can you build my thorax with 100% highsec materials?

I want to see logi appear on killmails! (by just repping)  See CSM "reasonable things"
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#64 - 2014-03-02 01:51:30 UTC
KiithSoban wrote:
Perhaps I don't understand.

How does production currently work? Do you need a portion of your materials from highsec ores and a portion from lowsec/nullsec ores? Is the proportion of these materials out of balance? Is that what you are suggesting?

I know t2 production is like this, but can you build my thorax with 100% highsec materials?

No. Some o the higher end minerals need to be mined out of null. You could essentially make everything in null since all the roids availibl are there.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2014-03-02 01:56:11 UTC
KiithSoban wrote:
Perhaps I don't understand.

How does production currently work? Do you need a portion of your materials from highsec ores and a portion from lowsec/nullsec ores? Is the proportion of these materials out of balance? Is that what you are suggesting?

I know t2 production is like this, but can you build my thorax with 100% highsec materials?


You do need some low/null minerals, yeah. Not a lot though. That's supposed to be the draw to bring people to null/low to mine.

Everything works perfectly fine as is. OP just seems to think that A: All highsec miners are botters, B: There are no botters in null, and C: Removing the need to mine highsec ores wouldn't wreck the game economy.

Wrong on all three accounts ofc. It was a stupendously bad idea when he posted it and it has not gotten any better since.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#66 - 2014-03-02 02:02:14 UTC
OP really didn't think this through.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Ole Gato
ABCone Corp
#67 - 2014-03-02 04:29:16 UTC
Is there any way to tell if a miner is running a bot or not? I mean for a player that is. If I come into an area and see a mining barge how do you know if this a bot or not?

Using a bot - when an asteroid is mined out does the bot just switch to the next asteroid or does it do scanning to select the type of ore it is looking for?

If the bot just moves to the next asteroid then maybe seed some low yield asteroids in the belt. You would need to scan the asteroid or highlight it and pull up info on the asteroid to see a density figure. Otherwise you could sit there for hours and get very little ore. Instead of xxx per 60 second revolution you would only get 1 tenth of that from a low yield asteroid.

But I am still so new to this game that I haven't even found the bathroom yet - nor the save game feature Roll

BYW - where is the nearest Starbucks :)

And I could have been an adventurer like you but then I took an asteroid in the knee
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2014-03-02 05:03:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Ole Gato wrote:
Is there any way to tell if a miner is running a bot or not? I mean for a player that is. If I come into an area and see a mining barge how do you know if this a bot or not?

Using a bot - when an asteroid is mined out does the bot just switch to the next asteroid or does it do scanning to select the type of ore it is looking for?

If the bot just moves to the next asteroid then maybe seed some low yield asteroids in the belt. You would need to scan the asteroid or highlight it and pull up info on the asteroid to see a density figure. Otherwise you could sit there for hours and get very little ore. Instead of xxx per 60 second revolution you would only get 1 tenth of that from a low yield asteroid.

But I am still so new to this game that I haven't even found the bathroom yet - nor the save game feature Roll

BYW - where is the nearest Starbucks :)

And I could have been an adventurer like you but then I took an asteroid in the knee


You really can't without doing something aggravating enough to make an actual person speak up in local. A miner mining everything looks just that same as a bot. If Identification was as simple as a big neon sign above their head CCP would have banned them all easily.

There are lots of theories about how to get rid of them, but most of them are terrible and would either swiftly be bypassed by the bot software or make mining too aggravating for everyone else, or both.

CCP's ongoing progress in refining auto-detection programs for botting is the best bet long term, and frankly I don't think it's that big of a problem anyway.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#69 - 2014-03-02 10:45:41 UTC
Requirements for a thanatos from an me 0 prod eff. V prints:


Tritanium
69 888 997
Pyerite
17 080 304
Mexallon
6 393 846
Isogen
996 807
Nocxium
281 781
Zydrine
50 677
Megacyte
21 792

So mostly trit and in huge quantities for super caps you don't mine you buy t1 crap and fill your JF with those and drop them to null and reprocess because with this scale you need a freighter loads (literally) of processed minerals.
Dave Stark
#70 - 2014-03-02 14:57:15 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
In my opinion, a player that is active at the keyboard while mining should be able to pull more ore than one that starts the process and goes and reads a book.


that already happens, it's called mining crystals.
Mobins
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2014-03-02 16:14:50 UTC
What about a NPC mining "negotiator" that shows up in the belt (not every time of course, but once every so often)?

The "trick" would be to use a random UI (elements and questions) for these negotiations, making it difficult to program a macro.

If you are a player, you simply agree to the terms of the negotiations and they'll go away.

If you're a bot which would have difficulties responding, the ships' strip miners are infected with a lock down virus, until negotiations have concluded. At this time negotiations will have to be continued in a system station, where a station negotiator can be called upon.

A player would be given plenty of opportunity to respond, since a bot don't care about time so much anyways. If a player happens to get their strips disabled, simple enter a station and complete negotiations.

A bot on the other hand would be forced to continue with the strip miners not functioning, amk.
Dave Stark
#72 - 2014-03-02 18:37:33 UTC
Mobins wrote:
What about a NPC mining "negotiator" that shows up in the belt (not every time of course, but once every so often)?

The "trick" would be to use a random UI (elements and questions) for these negotiations, making it difficult to program a macro.

If you are a player, you simply agree to the terms of the negotiations and they'll go away.

If you're a bot which would have difficulties responding, the ships' strip miners are infected with a lock down virus, until negotiations have concluded. At this time negotiations will have to be continued in a system station, where a station negotiator can be called upon.

A player would be given plenty of opportunity to respond, since a bot don't care about time so much anyways. If a player happens to get their strips disabled, simple enter a station and complete negotiations.

A bot on the other hand would be forced to continue with the strip miners not functioning, amk.


this is a prime example of "let's make the game **** for players to pretend we're doing something about bots".
just ban the bots instead of making mining even more **** for real players.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2014-03-03 06:49:47 UTC
Rowells wrote:
KiithSoban wrote:
Perhaps I don't understand.

How does production currently work? Do you need a portion of your materials from highsec ores and a portion from lowsec/nullsec ores? Is the proportion of these materials out of balance? Is that what you are suggesting?

I know t2 production is like this, but can you build my thorax with 100% highsec materials?

No. Some o the higher end minerals need to be mined out of null. You could essentially make everything in null since all the roids availibl are there.

You could if much mining happened there, but it's inefficient so most of the minerals come from highsec and most of what isn't available in highsec comes from sources other than mining.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#74 - 2014-03-03 07:04:26 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Rowells wrote:
KiithSoban wrote:
Perhaps I don't understand.

How does production currently work? Do you need a portion of your materials from highsec ores and a portion from lowsec/nullsec ores? Is the proportion of these materials out of balance? Is that what you are suggesting?

I know t2 production is like this, but can you build my thorax with 100% highsec materials?

No. Some o the higher end minerals need to be mined out of null. You could essentially make everything in null since all the roids availibl are there.

You could if much mining happened there, but it's inefficient so most of the minerals come from highsec and most of what isn't available in highsec comes from sources other than mining.

I don't think it's necessarily inneficient so much as an oppurtunity cost. I know my corp has been pushing for some lower end ores to be mined simply because we don't have enough trit, pyrite, and mexalon to make any ships. Most of the members prefer to mine the higher value ores since they will make more money that way. I know i'm taking a big hit in my income (without reducing any risk) by not mining my precious dark glitter, but it's necessary if we want to pay all the bills on time.

There's all the same low-end ores in null as there is in highsec and mining them close to home is cheaper, even easier if mine things like spodumain which has a lot of the higher demand minerals needed for the bulk of manufacturing needs. It's like mining copper in a gold mine.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2014-03-03 07:07:53 UTC
Baneken wrote:
Requirements for a thanatos from an me 0 prod eff. V prints:


Tritanium
69 888 997 - 2.327 mil m3 Veldspar
Pyerite
17 080 304 - 2.051 mil m3 Scordite
Mexallon
6 393 846 - 2.911 mil m3 Plagioclase
Isogen
996 807 - 0.974 mil m3 Omber
Nocxium
281 781 - 0.997 mil m3 Hemorphite
Zydrine
50 677 - 306 k m3 Crokite
Megacyte
21 792 - 209 k m3 Arkonor

So mostly trit and in huge quantities for super caps you don't mine you buy t1 crap and fill your JF with those and drop them to null and reprocess because with this scale you need a freighter loads (literally) of processed minerals.


added ore volumes

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#76 - 2014-03-03 07:13:44 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
So then the high end mineral costs should be increased.


Which will increase the 1 person, 25 character mining fleets in null, and won't reduce botting.
Qalix
Long Jump.
#77 - 2014-03-03 19:35:11 UTC
A solution in search of a problem. Is TEST really that desperate for cheap minerals?
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#78 - 2014-03-03 19:40:44 UTC
If you're not from team security, then I don't really care what your opinion on botting is.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Pew Terror
All of it
#79 - 2014-03-03 20:30:54 UTC
Mining Minigame on par with hacking.
Mining fixed.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2014-03-03 20:34:35 UTC
Pew Terror wrote:
Mining Minigame on par with hacking.
Mining fixed.


He're a better idea, remove the hacking "game".

Some of us play MMOs to compete with other people, not to fight some boring minigame that takes our attention off nearby player ships.

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