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Why are some people "afraid" of EvE?

First post
Author
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#101 - 2014-02-27 17:54:51 UTC
I attribute the phenomena the OP is adressing to a simple thing: effort and time.

By comparison with other MMO's, Eve requires an insane amount of effort and time to be remotely successfull compared to others. Up to such an extent that I personally do not bother with a great deal of mechanics, because they would interfere with real life too much. To me that is fine, I have found my gameplay niche as a "small guy" and lowsec pirate, but it took me quite a while to find where someone with my IRL situation fits in. Eve can be overwhelming and offputting for someone that just wants to play an enjoyable video game with friends. It appeals more to those with an interest in a persistant universe, people that don't require set-in-stone objectives to have a sense of accomplishment.

Achieving a sense of accomplishment isn't easy, as there is no accomplishment in levelling or PVE itself apart from ISK gain. The community expects a player to apply that ISK and do something cool with it. To me this requires an amount of effort and planning I find enjoyable as an internet spaceship tactician. I do not think I would feel this way if themepark MMO's were my usual cup of tea.
Sir Jack Falstaff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2014-02-27 17:56:39 UTC
As a relatively new player (7 months) I'll venture some guesses.

Sure, some people are going to get frustrated they can't get into capitals or strategic cruisers right away. There's not that much to do about these folks, as instant gratification is not-nor should it be-a feature of Eve

But Eve's intimidating learning curve rewards those who have the patience to stick it out past those first few months when you don't know what the heck is going on, when you start to figure out for yourself how fitting really works, how meta levels work, and a million other things. The slow skill grind is actually a blessing in disguise, I think, as you are forced to fly in frigates and destroyers for at least a little while. You learn how all the basics work, and that's rewarding.

And the importance of a good corp cannot be overstated. It is crucial. If new players don't find a good group of people to fly with, they are going to tire quickly of Eve's PvE content, which is pretty dull and repetitive.

I really don't think it's a matter of intelligence (although we like to congratulate ourselves that it is) but rather of an ability to delay gratification and the good fortune of connecting with like-minded people. Even flying a T1 frigate with no skills can be loads of fun if you're in a good group.

Banish plump Jack, and banish all the world.

Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#103 - 2014-02-27 17:58:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Divine Entervention
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Because you're essentially asking your friends to be peasants for a year. If they join now, nothing they can do will get them in that battleship.

The bare minimum amount of time it would take for me to get into a Widow is 106 days. And that's to be able to sit in it and not effectively use it. To train up the required skills to pilot it effectively would take another 200 days. Granted you could fly it without all the other necessary skills, but it would be a huge liability considering your inefficient fittings and related skills.

Why would you ask your friends to waste a year?

Why do you want to fly a widow? Seems a waste unless you're already in a large group that can do blops roams. Eve training times prohibiting play is the biggest falsehood in the mmo industry. Even wow has a larger barrier of entry in terms of time commitment.


I don't want to fly a widow. Someone might. I picked a widow arbitrarily. It's a place holder symbolizing a ship that one might wish to fly that would take time to be able to access. Swap widow for any other T2 battleship you feel is more appropriate.
Tran Tuyen
Amadio Family Enterprises
#104 - 2014-02-27 18:00:56 UTC
Is "don't undock for six months" the new "train all learning skills to V first" or something?
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#105 - 2014-02-27 18:00:57 UTC
SKINE DMZ wrote:
Titans are far from the best ships in eve(there are no best ships think of ships more like rock paper scissors, got to use the right one at the right time), they are tools against other big ships and can transport fleets from one place to another basically. You wouldn't go do anything in a Titan alone, they are only used with fleets so you wouldn't ever train to be in one on your main character.

You are extremely underestimating small ships, I did this too and I'm sure many others and only started flying frigates again a few months back. Within a year of playing you can be fully effective solo in faction warfare for example, winning fights and destroying ships of players who have been playing for longer than 5 years. The older character with lots of skill points will have the majority of their skill points in skills that are not relevant to the fight you will have with them.

People who think they need time to catch up don't understand EVE fully in my opinion, you can create a focused scanner guy right now and be more efficient in scanning than most pilots within just a few months.


Underestimating small ships. Wrong. I've flown in a frigate and been destroyed in 1 second by someone else. Maybe if you want to count target acquisition time, then it's still less than 10 seconds. 1 salvo = obliterated
SKINE DMZ
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2014-02-27 18:01:46 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Because you're essentially asking your friends to be peasants for a year. If they join now, nothing they can do will get them in that battleship.

The bare minimum amount of time it would take for me to get into a Widow is 106 days. And that's to be able to sit in it and not effectively use it. To train up the required skills to pilot it effectively would take another 200 days. Granted you could fly it without all the other necessary skills, but it would be a huge liability considering your inefficient fittings and related skills.

Why would you ask your friends to waste a year?

Why do you want to fly a widow? Seems a waste unless you're already in a large group that can do blops roams. Eve training times prohibiting play is the biggest falsehood in the mmo industry. Even wow has a larger barrier of entry in terms of time commitment.


I don't want to fly a widow. Someone might. I picked a widow arbitrarily. It's a place holder symbolizing a ship that one might wish to fly that would take time to be able to access.

By the time you understand why you would want to fly a Widow, you probably won't want to fly it anymore.

There is no reason a new player would fly a Widow and if he would it wouldn't be the right tool for what he wants it to do.

See my post on the previous page.

I disagree

Marsha Mallow
#107 - 2014-02-27 18:02:17 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
The titan was just to get an estimate on time to reach the most individually powerful ship in eve.

Which no one's answered yet.

To sit in a titan you only need the prereqs and the titan skillbook, which takes 193 days without implants and costs around 6b in skillbooks. To fly it with maxed out focused skills around 2 years, not sure where that ISD got 4 years from. Just rarely a focused titan alt comes up on the character forums and they are typically around 40-50m sp. It always makes me laugh when new players set this as a goal and you have to explain they can't be used in highsec which is typically greeted with confusion or outrage.

Re the OPs question, conversations with people I know in other games, people who quit Eve or RL friends typically get a similar responses


  • The community has a poor reputation amongst wider gamers - the forums only reinforce this
  • Skillqueue online - this was even worse when we had learning skills
  • Disliked the NPE
  • Disliked point & click mechanics
  • Too much like a second job
  • Too much of a time sink
  • Poor UI/too many 3rd party tools


The whole argument about not having enough SP to catch up only starts to tail off when people have caught up SP wise and realise they are still crap. In all seriousness, if this is such a massive issue just focus on ISK making initially and buy a higher skilled character. You don't need skills to make ISK, you need creativity.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Victoria Thorne
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#108 - 2014-02-27 18:03:04 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
SKINE DMZ wrote:
Titans are far from the best ships in eve(there are no best ships think of ships more like rock paper scissors, got to use the right one at the right time), they are tools against other big ships and can transport fleets from one place to another basically. You wouldn't go do anything in a Titan alone, they are only used with fleets so you wouldn't ever train to be in one on your main character.

You are extremely underestimating small ships, I did this too and I'm sure many others and only started flying frigates again a few months back. Within a year of playing you can be fully effective solo in faction warfare for example, winning fights and destroying ships of players who have been playing for longer than 5 years. The older character with lots of skill points will have the majority of their skill points in skills that are not relevant to the fight you will have with them.

People who think they need time to catch up don't understand EVE fully in my opinion, you can create a focused scanner guy right now and be more efficient in scanning than most pilots within just a few months.


Underestimating small ships. Wrong. I've flown in a frigate and been destroyed in 1 second by someone else. Maybe if you want to count target acquisition time, then it's still less than 10 seconds. 1 salvo = obliterated


How were you tanked? Were you using proper transversal? Did you have a prop mod? What was the opposing ship? All of those are relevant.
SKINE DMZ
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2014-02-27 18:04:22 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
SKINE DMZ wrote:
Titans are far from the best ships in eve(there are no best ships think of ships more like rock paper scissors, got to use the right one at the right time), they are tools against other big ships and can transport fleets from one place to another basically. You wouldn't go do anything in a Titan alone, they are only used with fleets so you wouldn't ever train to be in one on your main character.

You are extremely underestimating small ships, I did this too and I'm sure many others and only started flying frigates again a few months back. Within a year of playing you can be fully effective solo in faction warfare for example, winning fights and destroying ships of players who have been playing for longer than 5 years. The older character with lots of skill points will have the majority of their skill points in skills that are not relevant to the fight you will have with them.

People who think they need time to catch up don't understand EVE fully in my opinion, you can create a focused scanner guy right now and be more efficient in scanning than most pilots within just a few months.


Underestimating small ships. Wrong. I've flown in a frigate and been destroyed in 1 second by someone else. Maybe if you want to count target acquisition time, then it's still less than 10 seconds. 1 salvo = obliterated

Trust me, I am right.

If you keep playing you will understand all this by training, not player training and putting things into skill que online but mentally understanding the game, it's such a common mistake.

Here is some frigate PVP to show you anyway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZIIp342qIY you can fly like this within months.

I disagree

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#110 - 2014-02-27 18:04:30 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
Underestimating small ships. Wrong. I've flown in a frigate and been destroyed in 1 second by someone else. Maybe if you want to count target acquisition time, then it's still less than 10 seconds. 1 salvo = obliterated

…and yet, frigates can be a right ***** to kill and are being used to great effect as solo ships — winning fights and destroying ships belonging to older players.

So yes, if you're trying to generalise the overall capabilities of frigates from from that one instance, you will be (and are) massively underestimating what they can do.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#111 - 2014-02-27 18:04:56 UTC
if you wish to speak with me about ship fittings, please send me an email.

in the mean time.

New people are "afraid" of eve because it will take alot of time to fly whatever t2 specific battle ship you wish to fly.

Which everyone wants to fly a battleship immediately and every new player quits because he can't fly a t2 battleship.

CCP make it so we get a t2 battleship when we join.

I really really hope you're smarter than you're leading me to believe.
Ai Shun
#112 - 2014-02-27 18:05:28 UTC
Tacomaco wrote:
Oh, no, it's not their failure they made a game/manage this game is such a way that it fails to attract new players. But then again maybe I should listen to the 5-6 year old players, the game will be cool by the time the calendar shows 2020.


/shrug

Up to you. CCP has made a game that regularly features in the press, has been around in the same form for the last decade without pandering to the instant gratification mindset, has been growing year on year and now they're actually putting up a monument to their players. They're that good.

They're doing just fine and have some of the most loyal players around. No harm admitting you don't understand the game or how it is played - you have the opportunity to learn and you can take it should you choose to. Kimmi quoted you a good example of a new player that understands EVE and will go far in this game.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#113 - 2014-02-27 18:06:03 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:
I don't want to fly a widow. Someone might. I picked a widow arbitrarily. It's a place holder symbolizing a ship that one might wish to fly that would take time to be able to access. Swap widow for any other T2 battleship you feel is more appropriate.


T2 battleships just like any other t2 ships are not for those who cannot use t1 versions first. Undock your BlackOps or Marauder after your 106 or whatever days and you will find yourself on wrong end of killmail very fast.

This is what people are trying to explain to you all the time. Bigger, more expensive ship means nothing when confronted with experienced player in 2 mil dessie. You know how long it takes to skill for suicide ganking? Maybe a week. So yeah, here you have your 1 year skill queue prison before able to do anything.

Invalid signature format

Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#114 - 2014-02-27 18:06:31 UTC
SKINE DMZ wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
SKINE DMZ wrote:
Titans are far from the best ships in eve(there are no best ships think of ships more like rock paper scissors, got to use the right one at the right time), they are tools against other big ships and can transport fleets from one place to another basically. You wouldn't go do anything in a Titan alone, they are only used with fleets so you wouldn't ever train to be in one on your main character.

You are extremely underestimating small ships, I did this too and I'm sure many others and only started flying frigates again a few months back. Within a year of playing you can be fully effective solo in faction warfare for example, winning fights and destroying ships of players who have been playing for longer than 5 years. The older character with lots of skill points will have the majority of their skill points in skills that are not relevant to the fight you will have with them.

People who think they need time to catch up don't understand EVE fully in my opinion, you can create a focused scanner guy right now and be more efficient in scanning than most pilots within just a few months.


Underestimating small ships. Wrong. I've flown in a frigate and been destroyed in 1 second by someone else. Maybe if you want to count target acquisition time, then it's still less than 10 seconds. 1 salvo = obliterated

Trust me, I am right.

If you keep playing you will understand all this by training, not player training and putting things into skill que online but mentally understanding the game, it's such a common mistake.

Here is some frigate PVP to show you anyway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZIIp342qIY you can fly like this within months.


You heard it here first, folks. A tristan is a t1 frigate. Within MONTHS you'll be able to fly a t1 frigate around and start seeing results! Never mind it's a tier just above the rookie ship!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#115 - 2014-02-27 18:07:27 UTC
If you start playing EVE, see this awesome expensive skillpoint-intensive ship and tell yourself you're going to gear your entire EVE experience around eventually flying this ship, you've already put yourself off to a bad start. That is absolutely not how you want to approach the game if you want any sort of longevity out of it.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#116 - 2014-02-27 18:08:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Marsha Mallow wrote:
To sit in a titan you only need the prereqs and the titan skillbook, which takes 193 days without implants and costs around 6b in skillbooks. To fly it with maxed out focused skills around 2 years, not sure where that ISD got 4 years from.
Probably the same place I did: stuff every conceivable skill that affects a Titan and any (non-stupid) piece of equipment it can fit into EVEMon and ratchet all of them up to V.

Of course, at that point, it's nowhere near what you'd call a “focused” character, but he did ask for a MAXED one, after all… P

Divine Entervention wrote:
You heard it here first, folks. A tristan is a t1 frigate. Within MONTHS you'll be able to fly a t1 frigate around and start seeing results! Never mind it's a tier just above the rookie ship!

This is hardly news, and being “a tier just above the rookie ship” does not preclude it from being really horribly scary.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#117 - 2014-02-27 18:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Divine Entervention wrote:
You heard it here first, folks. A tristan is a t1 frigate. Within MONTHS you'll be able to fly a t1 frigate around and start seeing results! Never mind it's a tier just above the rookie ship!

No, you can fly it within hours. You can fly it perfectly within a couple months.

And within those couple of months you'll have many of the skills needed to fly every other ship in the game well.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Talia Prime
Imperial Militia
#118 - 2014-02-27 18:08:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Talia Prime
Divine Entervention wrote:


I asked an EVE ISD how long it would take and he said 4-5 years. If you're saying I need more training time because an ISD doesn't know himself between 4-5 years, I think you're trying to hard to push into me.

Still, to me, 4-5 years is entirely too long to reach the maximum of the best ship in game. That's just my opinion though. Luckily for us, I'm not trying to get a titan so that's not effecting my decision to play or quit.

But still, letting all the new players who read this thread know that to reach the best ship at maximum is a minimum of 4 years time investment, well I just think it's good to have the information out there for people to know.


Actually you are twisting things here. An ISD responded to your thread, you didn't 'ask' an ISD. Also, by omission you are again twisting things for your own agenda and making things look worse than they are. The ISD also told you that the last 2 years would be getting the last 5% efficiency out of the ship. Admittedly, you mention 'maximum', but as you well know new people will just read over that part.

The thing that a lot of new players don't realise is that the time spent training these skills is also time that needs to be spent learning the game so that you don't die in a horrible fire when you undock your shiny new battleship. I speak from experience here. Eve is unforgiving and the time spent in a frigate is extremely valuable, as is the time spent in a cruiser, battlecruiser etc.

In this regard I feel Eve has it right, the time spent learning skills is balanced with your game knowledge. As with other MMO's the XP grind is also balanced compared to the complexity of those games.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#119 - 2014-02-27 18:11:52 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Titans are not the best ships in Eve, they have clear purpose just like any other ship class has.


Exactly

Niotice how some people are linear "black and white" thinkers. The titan is the biggest so it must be the best.

But it doesn't work that way In EVE. Bigger can mean better, or it can mean worse or it can mean "hah hah, you big, you easy to catch lol" .
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#120 - 2014-02-27 18:11:55 UTC
Every skill to V + what I already have after 2.5 years should be enough to undock I guess. See you guys in 2034 o/

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