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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#161 - 2014-02-25 16:27:53 UTC
Breselyer AnDu wrote:


Rowells wrote:
Breselyer AnDu wrote:
No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others
That is a very self serving attitude


How is suggesting everyone gets new better ships self serving?

Maybe im reading it wrong, but saying fairness to others is less important than messing with something you like doesnt make me think otherwise.

But specifically which ship are you talking about, the worm perhaps?
Kel hound
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2014-02-25 16:28:55 UTC
While the worm looks fun, how exactly is this going to translate to the Gila and Rattlesnake? If you make the Gila use 2 medium drones then can't it just launch 4 smalls? And what about the Rattlesnake? If you give her enough bandwidth for just 2 heavys what's to stop it from launching 5 mediums?

I am intrigued by the Gurista changes, it'll be nice to have a missile and drone based pirate faction at last I'm just not sure how you can carry the same theme to the larger ships. What works for frigates doesn't necessarily work for battleships. I'd also share concerns with other people about the Rattler turning into the new drone assister, what with the 50 drone assist limit thats supposed to come in soon. Is there more information you're not telling us here because right now as I'm looking at the worm I feel like I'm only seeing 5% of the total picture.


One thing I do love about all this though is the changes to blood raider ships. This is going to make the Cruor and Ashimmu very deadly and bringing back the old NOS mechanic as a ship bonus is quite awesome and very unique. These ships are supposed to be named after demons and with these changes they will be feared as such.

What I am probably most disappointed by here is the Dramiel. It's such a disjointed little frigate these days with its damage spread out between guns, drones, and missiles. It also has a strange excess of power but relatively low cpu. I've never known what to do with a Dramiel besides copy the generic cookie-cutter dual prop setups. You kinda hit the nail on the head for me when you said this:
Quote:
the biggest problem Angels face is direct competition with other Minmatar ships

I don't see how angel ships are any different from minmatar ships save for different ship models. I seriously do not get how the Dramiel is any different from the Wolf or Jaguar. You've taken steps to make the other ships distinct from the empire factions, Im just not sure how the Angels are supposed to be unique.
Cade Windstalker
#163 - 2014-02-25 16:29:02 UTC
Breselyer AnDu wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Breselyer AnDu wrote:

New ships, if my ship is OP then add new equals. People can vote with their feet (or their isk) buy the new "better balanced" ships or stick to the ones you like. No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others, just give them something with comparable levels of benefits.


Which is a poor approach to design. For a start that's power-creep right there. Second it leaves us with a lot of useless ships that no one wants to fly because they don't fit the new higher power-average. Hence, things get rebalanced. Get over it, it's not going to stop happening.



The market would adjust to their relative benefits. The old ships would come down in price giving people a cheaper alternative at a spec cost, the new ships could be balanced along the lines suggested now so no creep unless this rebalance is creep?


Unlikely, because people would stop farming and producing the lower-spec ships, so the price stays high because supply moved to match demand.

Plus, again, that's a lot of un-used game assets, and it's a lot harder to produce entirely new ships than to rebalance existing ones. Again, CCP committed to this almost 2 years ago and it's been well received by the player-base. Re-balancing is always a better solution than power-creep.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#164 - 2014-02-25 16:29:25 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Just going to add that the Daredevil is a wickedly good squishy solo boat that is completely vulnerable to faster ships, and neuting ships. The web bonus is not OP because it does no good when this ship is fighting outnumbered. In gangs, the DD will die and will ALWAYS lose the isk war if not the fight overall. Keep its web bonus where it's at.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#165 - 2014-02-25 16:29:44 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Rowells wrote:
ok since im having a hard time figuring out these numbers and how they stack, what would be the final afterburner bonus on a succubus for a fully skilled pilot using T2 AB?

It makes it to about 2300m/s

Thank you. I hope it works well on the phantasm too
Breselyer AnDu
Ashab Alliance
#166 - 2014-02-25 16:30:20 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Breselyer AnDu wrote:


Rowells wrote:
Breselyer AnDu wrote:
No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others
That is a very self serving attitude


How is suggesting everyone gets new better ships self serving?

Maybe im reading it wrong, but saying fairness to others is less important than messing with something you like doesnt make me think otherwise.

But specifically which ship are you talking about, the worm perhaps?


You are reading it wrong. I am quite clearly suggesting fairness through alternate means or I wouldn't have said anything about new ships with equal abilities. Nope I don't have a worm. I do have a Dramiel.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#167 - 2014-02-25 16:31:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
LT Alter wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:

In larger fleets, the 90% web is what allows dreads to hit ahacs. And frigates.


You obviously have little experience flying dreads, signature resolution makes that a nearly impossible task. The hitting value is not determined just by the relative velocity and range it has to do with gun resolution and sig radius as well which makes hitting these ships with a dread hard even at 0 velocity. The other fact is that this is the medium sized warfare I was referring to, fights of less than 100-200 people where a smaller gang can operate and fight the larger gang using it's resources to it's advantage. Blap dreads are a highly effective way to counter numbers and comes with so many down sides to using that that they are no where near broken.

I am a major advocate for any and all mechanics that support quality over quantity in eve, blap dreads not only require expensive fits and a large amount of skill points but they require great teamwork and skilled pilots that know what they're doing.


A ship at 0 velocity gets hit for full dps by any guns not mounted on a titan.

Also, didnt you lose a bait tengu to me because you didnt know you cant light cynos in deadspace? And then had to burn a bunch of canes and falcons to save the archon you warped in?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#168 - 2014-02-25 16:31:43 UTC
Breselyer AnDu wrote:
[You are reading it wrong. I am quite clearly suggesting fairness through alternate means or I wouldn't have said anything about new ships with equal abilities. Nope I don't have a worm. I do have a Dramiel.

OK. I geuss i got caught up in that one phrase i saw. My bad.
Breselyer AnDu
Ashab Alliance
#169 - 2014-02-25 16:31:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Breselyer AnDu
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Breselyer AnDu wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Breselyer AnDu wrote:

New ships, if my ship is OP then add new equals. People can vote with their feet (or their isk) buy the new "better balanced" ships or stick to the ones you like. No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others, just give them something with comparable levels of benefits.


Which is a poor approach to design. For a start that's power-creep right there. Second it leaves us with a lot of useless ships that no one wants to fly because they don't fit the new higher power-average. Hence, things get rebalanced. Get over it, it's not going to stop happening.



The market would adjust to their relative benefits. The old ships would come down in price giving people a cheaper alternative at a spec cost, the new ships could be balanced along the lines suggested now so no creep unless this rebalance is creep?


Unlikely, because people would stop farming and producing the lower-spec ships, so the price stays high because supply moved to match demand.

Plus, again, that's a lot of un-used game assets, and it's a lot harder to produce entirely new ships than to rebalance existing ones. Again, CCP committed to this almost 2 years ago and it's been well received by the player-base. Re-balancing is always a better solution than power-creep.


The new ships could use the same hulls, no asset issues. So really we're talking about database entries mostly.
LT Alter
Ryba.
White Squall.
#170 - 2014-02-25 16:32:40 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Quote:
For now, I intend to leave it at full strength


it's just one disappointment after another with you guys. anyway, the issue with daredevils is that people abuse links and faction webs for ridiculous range control, for easymode kiting. you should fix this by swapping the hybrid damage bonus for a blaster damage bonus, pushing it toward being a fast honour brawler, which is what it's supposed to be (or you could, you know, fix links). it sure does have a large turret damage bonus. I wonder if that's justified, really not sure.

Quote:
Amarr Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)


I'm giving this one 0/10. first of all, I'm pretty sure the current succubus only has 3 highs, not 4, and second I can see all the FW scrubs armour tanking it already, like they do with breachers and hookbills, because webs and tracking disruptors >>>>>> an extra lowslot, and this is a larger issue I guess. anyway, my main issue is being locked into using an AB, which would be ok if you could fit beams and had a range bonus, but you don't, so you just get auto wrecked by kiting ships, because you're in a dumb inflexible brawler that can't do anything. drop the utility high for a midslot, maybe buff up the tracking bonus if you want it to actually be useful - tracking bonuses are pretty weak generally, and find something else for its amarr frigate bonus. solo-wise, there's also the issue that everyone knows what your fitting is, which alone is a pretty good reason for me to never fly it.

Quote:
Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range (was 10% bonus to Stasis Webifier effectiveness)


please stop with the web bonuses, they're really horrible and easily abused and broken by kiting scum with links. also, 3 lows and no armour bonus on a pirate armour frigate? this is a joke, it needs 4 or 5 or something. I'd be more looking at 2 midslot no-web bonus stuff. it also looks like it's still ridiculously slow. I think some thought should go into all of the mobility stats on these ships, because they're pretty inconsistent. some of these things currently are as slow as AFs (which also need to be rebalanced), with nothing to show for it.

Quote:
WORM


I really like this one, except the speed. I would like to have 5 mids though. many shield frigates suffer from this - with the strength of webs (nerf webs pls), you really really cannot afford to not have a web, so you're stuck with a 1 slot tank, which sucks. I hope on the gila, you can bring it down to 20 bandwidth with a massive damage and possibly drone speed bonus, because this heavies on cruisers thing is an absolute joke, and sentries, while OP, are not ideal a lot of the time.


It seems as if your logic is only applying to what you want to do and what you like to fly, rather short sighted of you I must say. I agree with the daredevil at the least, the 90% webs on a frigate give it too much ability to dictate range in that environment it is highly over powered and a flat blaster bonus would do much to improve this fact. However 90% webs on all serp ships should remain. All of your other negativity I find rather astounding, as for once I think CCP finally did a good job balancing, rather than going all out "lets make everything the same", they're shaking things up a bit and I like it.
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#171 - 2014-02-25 16:32:45 UTC
Seconding the "50% AB speed was tested on AFs and dumpstered for being too much" worries in light of what is now a 100% bonus on the Sansha hull. I think going with a reduction in sig bloom and cap use to MWDs would be less likely to create problems.

Good take on the Blood Raiders vs Serpentis web bonuses issue, too. Separating them between range and strength feels a lot more consistent.

I tend to agree with people who say that the 90% webs are too strong, but given the relative frailty of a Daredevil, I think this one is fine. When you get to cruisers and battleships, I hope you will reconsider your position.

The Worm's drones are a cool idea, I guess, but lore-wise it feels a little out of place. Yes Guristas ships were made into drone platforms to bastardize State ships with Gallente concepts, but the less-drones-with-mega-bonuses is a Sansha thing on the Revenant.

Seconding the idea that these reworks sort of make the Dramiel look bland in comparison. Over time its roles have been taken over by many other ships as everything else has been buffed while it stays the same. Please don't make it the latest Rifter!

No sig.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#172 - 2014-02-25 16:33:11 UTC
stg slate wrote:
Worm:

I enjoy the new bonuses drone direction, but I'm afraid of what the Gila will look like based on that.

No matter what bandwidth you give the Gila I'll fill it full of Warrior 2's and a few drone nav computers and have 300% bonused, very fast Warrior 2's murdering frigates.

Current game mechanics with bandwidth won't let you expand out this design to the Gila or Rattlesnake without creating a balance issue at those levels.

Why not?

Oh god.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#173 - 2014-02-25 16:34:42 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Isn't a theme of "two powerful drones" basically saying "make a drone assist fleet based on these"
Carrier assist fleets will be replaced with Worm assist fleets!
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#174 - 2014-02-25 16:37:48 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Isn't a theme of "two powerful drones" basically saying "make a drone assist fleet based on these"
Carrier assist fleets will be replaced with Worm assist fleets!


gila and rattlesnake though. it's going to happen, isn't it. **** this game.
Cable Udan
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#175 - 2014-02-25 16:40:00 UTC
I like these changes.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#176 - 2014-02-25 16:40:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
also on succubus are you changing its shield recharge rate??
it has the worst recharge rate of all the frigs

910 vs 625 secs

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Striscio
Doomheim
#177 - 2014-02-25 16:40:40 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

[...] and then to give all three "old NOS", that is, Energy Vampires would continue to leech from your target until their cap reaches zero, regardless of your own cap level. [...]

Interesting, did you plan to release a module or a rig with similar function? maybe with heavy drawback on energy modules so that specialized energy warfare ships can't overshadow bloods ones.

CCP Rise wrote:

Guristas: This has probably been the hardest faction to figure out. The Rattlesnake and Gila both have their uses but are both overshadowed in many ways by the new Ishtar and Dominix. We wanted Guristas to keep a drone theme but to move in a new and unique direction rather than trying to compete directly with other popular drone ships.

They got overshadowed mostly because of the new bonus, Guristas are shield and Gallente armor, they are both worthy of a complementary existence as much as armor/hybrid and shield/hybrid is. Said that, missiles as complementary feature need a reiteration, due to Gallente renewal Guristas are now left behind with "outdated" (inteded as no longer top notch drone ship) drones bonus and somewhat marginal weapon bonus.

CCP Rise wrote:

Angel: And last we have the most popular pirate faction, which is doing pretty well at all three sizes. The biggest problem Angels face is direct competition with other Minmatar ships and a light case of OP. The Dramiel isn't getting any big changes and the other two Angel ships probably won't see any huge change in style or function either, but wait for later threads to discuss their specifics please.

Not that i don't like they current form but you said yourselves, at this point they could strive for something different than "Minmatar+1". After all if Guristas can't be the "Shield Gallente" why should Angel been allowed to be "Bigger Minmatar"?


CCP Rise wrote:

As the Worm shows below, we are looking at giving each Guristas ship a bandwidth that allows for only two drones, but a large damage and hitpoint bonus to those drones, leading to very high overall drone damage and toughness. Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.

Not completely convinced by the proposed iteration. Racial bonus looks ok, however i don't like the kin/therm limit. The role bonus as "less drones but more powerful" doesn't appeal me. Reducing bandwidth might be beneficial server side but means less option for the user considering you can launch only 2 light drones while not having bonuses on non light scout drones (i take "light combat drone" in the OP as the Drones » Combat Drones » Light Scout Drones group). It also looks like a concept that can't scale well for cruiser and battleship size. At this point i would left the old drone and focus on the missiles part. Maybe on rapid launchers since the new version they are laking a dedicated ships, Guristas could have reduced fitting requirement on worm and reduced reload time on Gila and Rattlesnake.


I like the rest, saved for the web range bonus (turn it down a bit?), good work. :)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#178 - 2014-02-25 16:40:45 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:
(so the Rattlesnake would get to field two Ogres with a 300% increase to damage and hit points).

No.

I'm guessing the Rattlesnake is only going to get 25m Bandwidth anyway.

Oh god.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#179 - 2014-02-25 16:41:56 UTC
CompleteFailure wrote:
elitatwo wrote:

2 light, 300% bonus = 8 effective (remember they already do 100% dmg before bonus :P)
+1


Itago Gemulus wrote:
2 drones +300% = 2+6 (2=100% ->300%=6) for a total of 8 effective drones


It's 6 effective drones. You're not adding 300%, you're multiplying by 300%

300% = 3.00

2*3.00 = 6

learn2maths


By that logic 100% role bonus on Marauders is 4*1 = 4 effective turrets (300%=3.00 -> 100% =1.00)

If you add 300% you get a bonus of 300% not a total of 300%
Jon Joringer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#180 - 2014-02-25 16:41:58 UTC
I think your changes to the Cruor make it a little bit more useless than it is now. It does not receive a neut/nos range bonus, nor does it get any kind of optimal range bonus for its turrets, yet it now gets a web range bonus. It's bonuses don't have synergy with one another anymore -- its neuts/nos don't get past 7km and it's guns won't have terribly great optimal, either. I understand the move to web range bonuses to keep it similar throughout the entire Blood Raider line, but either change the Cruor's bonuses to neut/nos range and laser optimal, or change the web bonus back to strength for the Cruor. I think the Cruor is neglected not for its bonuses (which work really well together, I think), but for other reasons, like lackluster dps, maybe.