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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1361 - 2014-03-18 00:23:41 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
Crazy KSK wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:

Being in a successful corp does not automatically make you as an individual an expert on every ship in the game. Notice that in numerous responses to this thread, I've only commented on the proposed blood raider changes. There is a reason for that.

As for staying out of my web range, good luck with that. I'll catch you on a gate (17km), a WH (<10km) or warp to your location at 0 after a prober in fleets gets your exact location. If you're moving, big deal, I'll land 10km away, less than half my web range. In the off chance you actually attacked me, also no problem because I'm sitting in the immediate vicinity of a gate/wh/station/pos. If it's a problem, I and anyone with me will simply move to the next system. If you pursue, you are going to start well within my web range.

As for closing to neut range, as I've already stated, charging in 5-6km while your target is 90% webbed is a lot easier than trying to close 40km with only a 60% web on the target. I don't know why you want a web range bonus so much. Just fly a damned rapier if you want that. It can web stuff at around 100km.


do you think it would be better if the cruor was able to neut and shoot(with scorch) at 20km? and also gets 4 mids 3highs with 1 neut that has a stronger bonus keeping the neut amount the same so it can fit 2 webs or a cap booster




I don't really care either way tbh. The only thing I'm trying to drive in is that the bonuses need to be complementary. Brawler with the current slot layout/fittings, 90% web and the new NOS bonus would be acceptable. It would still be a little weak in dps and very average for tank, but the ability to cap someone out is powerful by itself, so it would be ok.

If it is converted to something akin to a sentinel with a web range bonus instead of TD bonus, that could also work. I think a 4th midslot would solve a lot of problems regardless of which route is followed.

How about a web effectiveness and range bonus as suggested earlier. That would make the ship very nice to use. A 5% bonus per level will give the blood ships around 3km extra range to their 75% webs, which although not as good as 90% webs, they are still very awesome combined with the additional range.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1362 - 2014-03-18 14:26:00 UTC
The reason why everyone want 90% web on the Cruor is because this bonus is absurdly powerful, if not completely OP.

As Kagura said, web range bonus will be very useful for the Ashimu because it will allow it to catch its target and come to neut range.

The difference with the Cruor is that base small neut range is 6km, too small compared to web... unless you use deadspace neut/nos with 8 to 10km range (2 of them are cheaper than one federation navy web everyone seems to think cheap enough to replace the web bonus...)

With deadspace neut/nos, the Cruor become insanely powerful : you can kite beyond scram range and neut the hell out of anything able to come closer ; and you can pin down the kiters and come closer to shut them down with the neut/nos and outbrawl them.

In fact, the Cruor is stronger than anything faster then him, and with the web, faster than anything stronger ; and the neut/nos wildcard assure it the upper hand in almost any fight where things can go wrong. The key is only in the deadspace neut/nos.

Anyway, all this bullshit about the 90%web bonus is unthought, because that's what the Cruor already have, and it's far from a renowned frigate at the moment, because for any task involving strong webing the Daredevil is better/prefered. Keeping the 90% web bonus on the Cruor would be useless and only leave it dusting in hangars for some more years. Such a bonus would not suddenly turn it good because it wouldn't change anything and something need to change, and I doubt the old version nos would be enough. At least, the long range web place it a an hybrid of Hyena and Sentinel, and I can't see this bad.
Dyniss
KarmaFleet University
#1363 - 2014-03-18 15:07:47 UTC
The Worm changes and pretty much the entire line of Gurista pirate faction listed changes are stupid. Not only do you lose the ability to launch ewar drones effectively, but also logistical ones as well. And a kinetic missile bonus? WTF? I find it funny how CCP removed almost all the kinetic missile damage bonuses off the Caldari line of ships in favor of a missile rate of fire bonus stating that locking a single damage type into a weapon system was a stupid idea. Way to go... You are now effectively killing off the Gurista's missile damage and cutting their drone bay and bandwidth in half. Smaller drones may be fine with this change (hardly), but larger drones which are slow and easy to hit will still die quite fast. And when they do die you will quickly lose your effective damage output. Frankly if CCP decides to implement these stupid changes to some of my most favorite ships to use, I will be quickly selling them off in favor of something else.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1364 - 2014-03-18 16:39:15 UTC
Dyniss wrote:
The Worm changes and pretty much the entire line of Gurista pirate faction listed changes are stupid. Not only do you lose the ability to launch ewar drones effectively, but also logistical ones as well. And a kinetic missile bonus? WTF? I find it funny how CCP removed almost all the kinetic missile damage bonuses off the Caldari line of ships in favor of a missile rate of fire bonus stating that locking a single damage type into a weapon system was a stupid idea. Way to go... You are now effectively killing off the Gurista's missile damage and cutting their drone bay and bandwidth in half. Smaller drones may be fine with this change (hardly), but larger drones which are slow and easy to hit will still die quite fast. And when they do die you will quickly lose your effective damage output. Frankly if CCP decides to implement these stupid changes to some of my most favorite ships to use, I will be quickly selling them off in favor of something else.

Man, please think a bit about it before talking ! If they go this route with larger drones, one Ogre II would have 16kehp with 100m signature ! Again, if anything is fool enough to try to kill such drones, he will take ages to do that, and the missiles of the gurista ship alone will have time to kill this idiot.

Granted, logistic and ewar drones are a lot worse with that, but a drone ship using these is doing it wrong anyway...

As for the missile bonus, the ship goes from no damage bonus to a kinetic damage bonus. That a straight buff, and there is absolutely no way on earth you can call that a lock in anything, because compared to before, that's a strraight plus if you use kinetic !

And missiles users should really get in their head that kinetic bonus damage do NOT prevent them from using other damage types and do NOT remove them the ability to select damage. There is only one case where this is not 100% true, it's with the 10% bonus per level ; yet you still have infinitely better damage selection against T2/T3 hull than hybrids or lasers.

The problem with larger hulls will come from the swarm of deadly small/medium drones. I'm eager to see what they will do to avoid the ship being completely OP.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#1365 - 2014-03-18 18:02:00 UTC
To the last two posters: It gets Kin AND Therm damage bonuses for missiles. So it is not locked into one type.
Giullare
The Candyman is Back
#1366 - 2014-03-18 18:20:32 UTC
T1 dominix and t2 ishtar are still way better than guristas hull, that's because of optimal range and tracking bonus.

Guristas tree need @ least these bonuses to not be subpar.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#1367 - 2014-03-18 18:22:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Aglais
Dyniss wrote:
The Worm changes and pretty much the entire line of Gurista pirate faction listed changes are stupid. Not only do you lose the ability to launch ewar drones effectively, but also logistical ones as well. And a kinetic missile bonus? WTF? I find it funny how CCP removed almost all the kinetic missile damage bonuses off the Caldari line of ships in favor of a missile rate of fire bonus stating that locking a single damage type into a weapon system was a stupid idea. Way to go... You are now effectively killing off the Gurista's missile damage and cutting their drone bay and bandwidth in half. Smaller drones may be fine with this change (hardly), but larger drones which are slow and easy to hit will still die quite fast. And when they do die you will quickly lose your effective damage output. Frankly if CCP decides to implement these stupid changes to some of my most favorite ships to use, I will be quickly selling them off in favor of something else.


1. And nothing of value was lost. ECM drones? On a ship whose purpose is missile+ drone damage? Dumb.

2. It's kin/therm, you know. Better than just kinetic but not as good as a blanket bonus to all.

3. This is hilarious. You think Guristas' missile damage is going to nosedive. Well let me tell you something. New Worm? About 83 DPS out of two launchers. Same range and DPS as a punisher with dual pulses and Scorch. As compared to like... 40-ish DPS from completely unbonused launchers now, which is garbage. Then you have maybe 150 dps coming out of two drones... With attack frigate EHP and microscopic sig radii...

4. Firesale all of your Gurista ships to me for 500k ISK a piece if you think they're going to be that awful.

I'm noticing a trend. Everyone criticizing the Worm doesn't actually understand the changes, and is only reacting to "THEY ARE CHUNKING THE DRONE BAY DOWN TO NOTHING AUGH THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A DRONE CARRIER WITH FIVE DRONES THAT I CAN MICROMANAGE BEAUSE I THINK MICROMANAGING FIVE 5% DAMAGE PER LEVEL OF GALLENTE FRIGATE DRONES IS FUN".

If you need to read over the changes more than once, do so- the Worm may actually be in a good, usable position after this.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1368 - 2014-03-18 19:20:39 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The reason why everyone want 90% web on the Cruor is because this bonus is absurdly powerful, if not completely OP.

As Kagura said, web range bonus will be very useful for the Ashimu because it will allow it to catch its target and come to neut range.

The difference with the Cruor is that base small neut range is 6km, too small compared to web... unless you use deadspace neut/nos with 8 to 10km range (2 of them are cheaper than one federation navy web everyone seems to think cheap enough to replace the web bonus...)

With deadspace neut/nos, the Cruor become insanely powerful : you can kite beyond scram range and neut the hell out of anything able to come closer ; and you can pin down the kiters and come closer to shut them down with the neut/nos and outbrawl them.

In fact, the Cruor is stronger than anything faster then him, and with the web, faster than anything stronger ; and the neut/nos wildcard assure it the upper hand in almost any fight where things can go wrong. The key is only in the deadspace neut/nos.

Anyway, all this bullshit about the 90%web bonus is unthought, because that's what the Cruor already have, and it's far from a renowned frigate at the moment, because for any task involving strong webing the Daredevil is better/prefered. Keeping the 90% web bonus on the Cruor would be useless and only leave it dusting in hangars for some more years. Such a bonus would not suddenly turn it good because it wouldn't change anything and something need to change, and I doubt the old version nos would be enough. At least, the long range web place it a an hybrid of Hyena and Sentinel, and I can't see this bad.


yes switching the web bonus to range without giving it a neut range bonus is a harsh nerf to the cruor because it will loose its ability to keep its neuts on the target for any significant amount of time against ship with a web of their own

also just pointing out that there are only 10km small nos no neuts

the power grid they removed from it is also not helping the ship in the slightest

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1369 - 2014-03-18 19:37:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
Aglais wrote:


3. This is hilarious. You think Guristas' missile damage is going to nosedive. Well let me tell you something. New Worm? About 83 DPS out of two launchers. Same range and DPS as a punisher with dual pulses and Scorch. As compared to like... 40-ish DPS from completely unbonused launchers now, which is garbage. Then you have maybe 150 dps coming out of two drones... With attack frigate EHP and microscopic sig radii...


just putting some numbers right

2x rocket launcher = 56dps rage ammo no damage mods (just put 2 launchers on a kestrel)
^ its 10% you idiot ^ =67dps
current worm does 146dps with 2 damage mods
new worm will do 234dps with 2 damage mods
edit: hobgoblin IIs

PS: hob II HP (not ehp) with the bonus is 335s 720a 1775h total of 2830
on an ogre II that would be 1480s 2880a 7105h total of 11465
again this is hp before resists and with the 300% bonus

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#1370 - 2014-03-18 20:12:21 UTC
inb4 Fed Navy Hob + Worm
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#1371 - 2014-03-18 20:17:33 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The reason why everyone want 90% web on the Cruor is because this bonus is absurdly powerful, if not completely OP.

As Kagura said, web range bonus will be very useful for the Ashimu because it will allow it to catch its target and come to neut range.

The difference with the Cruor is that base small neut range is 6km, too small compared to web... unless you use deadspace neut/nos with 8 to 10km range (2 of them are cheaper than one federation navy web everyone seems to think cheap enough to replace the web bonus...)

With deadspace neut/nos, the Cruor become insanely powerful : you can kite beyond scram range and neut the hell out of anything able to come closer ; and you can pin down the kiters and come closer to shut them down with the neut/nos and outbrawl them.

In fact, the Cruor is stronger than anything faster then him, and with the web, faster than anything stronger ; and the neut/nos wildcard assure it the upper hand in almost any fight where things can go wrong. The key is only in the deadspace neut/nos.

Anyway, all this bullshit about the 90%web bonus is unthought, because that's what the Cruor already have, and it's far from a renowned frigate at the moment, because for any task involving strong webing the Daredevil is better/prefered. Keeping the 90% web bonus on the Cruor would be useless and only leave it dusting in hangars for some more years. Such a bonus would not suddenly turn it good because it wouldn't change anything and something need to change, and I doubt the old version nos would be enough. At least, the long range web place it a an hybrid of Hyena and Sentinel, and I can't see this bad.


You're absolutely clueless aren't you
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1372 - 2014-03-18 20:34:23 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
inb4 Fed Navy Hob + Worm


dps would drop down to 203 from 234
and hp would be 670s 1440a 1480h total of 3590 quite a bit better
they are quite a lot slower though

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1373 - 2014-03-18 23:42:37 UTC
Dun'Gal wrote:
You're absolutely clueless aren't you
Trolling is bad, you shouldn't do that.
Higgs Maken
The Metal Box Company
#1374 - 2014-03-19 08:14:37 UTC
A number of people's comments about worm changes have no idea what they are talking about. IshKur an assault frigate have bonus of 10% drone hit point per level of skill thus at max skill it would only be doing 5 drone dps. The different in dps is 3 drone not 0.5 drone. Patch to update worm should go together with ishkur drone damage buff.
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#1375 - 2014-03-19 09:09:29 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Dun'Gal wrote:
You're absolutely clueless aren't you
Trolling is bad, you shouldn't do that.

Not trolling just pointing out what should be blatantly obvious to everyone here.

On the subject though, the only reason the Cruor sees any use now is because of the current web bonus. It's DPS isn't great, and it's tank is pathetic at best, the ship is pigeonholed into such a small engagement window right now that taking it into a fight with almost every ship of the same class is like throwing ISK away. It doesn't need a range bonus on that web, nor does it actually need stronger neuts, it needs to be able to either hit harder, or be able fit some kind of reasonable tank. Emphasis on the latter. Tweaks are what's needed on the Cruor, not a complete change. With that said if Rise can come up with a change that helps fill in those other gaps better, THEN and only then will I say ok, a web-range bonus on the Cruor is fine.

As for the larger ships (that's not what this discussion is or should be focused on) but I can agree that the Ashimmu can certainly stand to benefit a lot from a range bonus on the web.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#1376 - 2014-03-19 10:36:47 UTC
Dun'Gal wrote:
On the subject though, the only reason the Cruor sees any use now is because of the current web bonus. It's DPS isn't great, and it's tank is pathetic at best, the ship is pigeonholed into such a small engagement window right now that taking it into a fight with almost every ship of the same class is like throwing ISK away. It doesn't need a range bonus on that web, nor does it actually need stronger neuts, it needs to be able to either hit harder, or be able fit some kind of reasonable tank. Emphasis on the latter. Tweaks are what's needed on the Cruor, not a complete change. With that said if Rise can come up with a change that helps fill in those other gaps better, THEN and only then will I say ok, a web-range bonus on the Cruor is fine.
That would only make the Cruor a worse Daredevil, slower and with less firepower. It needs something to stand appart from the others, because I can't see it compete with the Daredevil without turning it into another Daredevil.

The web might be the reason for the Cruor to live today, yet it's only a "cheap" alternative to the Daredevil. And as long as the Cruor have nothing else than the the web bonus, it always will be a worse Daredevil. Or, at beast it will obsolete the Daredevil. Neither option is good, and all this is because of the redundancy of the almighty 90% web bonus. The Cruor needs something for himself, not something to be a copy of something else.

In this regards, obviously the web range is not ideal, but IMO it's a lot more powerful than some people thinks and it will synergize well with larger hulls of the line.
Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#1377 - 2014-03-19 12:32:22 UTC
OK, here's me being unreasonable, but keeping with the web discussion for the Cruor and the overall vampire theme of the blood raiders, what if half the speed the webs take from the webbed target is transferred to the webber? That would be pretty unique.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1378 - 2014-03-19 14:32:50 UTC
Vesan Terakol wrote:
OK, here's me being unreasonable, but keeping with the web discussion for the Cruor and the overall vampire theme of the blood raiders, what if half the speed the webs take from the webbed target is transferred to the webber? That would be pretty unique.


Isn't that starting to enter the realm of wizards and warlocks?

I think in a space-ship game we should keep an eye on (at least hypothetical) physics.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#1379 - 2014-03-19 15:25:10 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The reason why everyone want 90% web on the Cruor is because this bonus is absurdly powerful, if not completely OP.

As Kagura said, web range bonus will be very useful for the Ashimu because it will allow it to catch its target and come to neut range.

The difference with the Cruor is that base small neut range is 6km, too small compared to web... unless you use deadspace neut/nos with 8 to 10km range (2 of them are cheaper than one federation navy web everyone seems to think cheap enough to replace the web bonus...)

With deadspace neut/nos, the Cruor become insanely powerful : you can kite beyond scram range and neut the hell out of anything able to come closer ; and you can pin down the kiters and come closer to shut them down with the neut/nos and outbrawl them.

In fact, the Cruor is stronger than anything faster then him, and with the web, faster than anything stronger ; and the neut/nos wildcard assure it the upper hand in almost any fight where things can go wrong. The key is only in the deadspace neut/nos.

Anyway, all this bullshit about the 90%web bonus is unthought, because that's what the Cruor already have, and it's far from a renowned frigate at the moment, because for any task involving strong webing the Daredevil is better/prefered. Keeping the 90% web bonus on the Cruor would be useless and only leave it dusting in hangars for some more years. Such a bonus would not suddenly turn it good because it wouldn't change anything and something need to change, and I doubt the old version nos would be enough. At least, the long range web place it a an hybrid of Hyena and Sentinel, and I can't see this bad.


with no 90% web your back down to all minmatar ships again being able to run away cuz 60% web sucks. and since most minmatar ships have a plethora of mids they will always have a web of there own.

i dont no anybody who is going to willingly fit 2 faction neuts on a cruor for any reason other than to look like your rich.

i no your out in the cal/gal warzone and the DD is preferred but it is not better than the cruor atm. for ANY task in fw plex fighting the cruor is prefered and better than the daredevil. Because right now, when your capped out you do zero dps or you do zero repping. that is the ONLY reason the cruor see's use today is because it doesnt have to sacrifice 2 mids to hold ONE ship in place for neuting. and if the cruor looses the 90% web it will have to fit 2 webs to hold one ship in place. And that will be the reason why it collects dust in the hanger.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1380 - 2014-03-19 16:38:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Crazy KSK wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The reason why everyone want 90% web on the Cruor is because this bonus is absurdly powerful, if not completely OP.

As Kagura said, web range bonus will be very useful for the Ashimu because it will allow it to catch its target and come to neut range.

The difference with the Cruor is that base small neut range is 6km, too small compared to web... unless you use deadspace neut/nos with 8 to 10km range (2 of them are cheaper than one federation navy web everyone seems to think cheap enough to replace the web bonus...)

With deadspace neut/nos, the Cruor become insanely powerful : you can kite beyond scram range and neut the hell out of anything able to come closer ; and you can pin down the kiters and come closer to shut them down with the neut/nos and outbrawl them.

In fact, the Cruor is stronger than anything faster then him, and with the web, faster than anything stronger ; and the neut/nos wildcard assure it the upper hand in almost any fight where things can go wrong. The key is only in the deadspace neut/nos.

Anyway, all this bullshit about the 90%web bonus is unthought, because that's what the Cruor already have, and it's far from a renowned frigate at the moment, because for any task involving strong webing the Daredevil is better/prefered. Keeping the 90% web bonus on the Cruor would be useless and only leave it dusting in hangars for some more years. Such a bonus would not suddenly turn it good because it wouldn't change anything and something need to change, and I doubt the old version nos would be enough. At least, the long range web place it a an hybrid of Hyena and Sentinel, and I can't see this bad.


yes switching the web bonus to range without giving it a neut range bonus is a harsh nerf to the cruor because it will loose its ability to keep its neuts on the target for any significant amount of time against ship with a web of their own

also just pointing out that there are only 10km small nos no neuts

the power grid they removed from it is also not helping the ship in the slightest

I seriously doubt anyone will be running Neuts on this ship, the advantage of a limitless NOS is far more advantageous.

Adding this unlimited NOS bonus is extremely overpowered (as has been proven in the past)... adding a second bonus equally overpowered (web effectiveness) is highly unlikely.

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