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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1341 - 2014-03-14 10:51:13 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
As a suggestion, how about this for Blood Raider ships as the Minmatar bonus -

Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Stasis Webifier range and effectiveness.

Now that would be a very cool bonus. Perhaps a little powerful, but it could always be toned down, and then gives blood raiders a unique place in the overall ship lineup.



6% would be a less abusive approach. The 2 bonuses combined are very very powerful.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#1342 - 2014-03-15 03:20:38 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:


Clearly you're the one not very experienced at pvp. Fights start within 20km typically unless the attacker deliberately initiates at range. Overheated fed navy web is 23km with links which your average ashimmu, especially a small gang or solo one, will have. A 90% 23km web brings everything to a dead stop. That's far more useful to a brawler than the ability to web them at 50km. If you're starting combat at 50km in a ship with a 25km gun range and <15km neut/nos range, you're doing it wrong even if you have a 50km web. The ashimmu is currently one of the finest cruisers in the game for solo/small gang. This web change is a massive nerf to it. Yes it will still have its uses, but it is an unnecessary nerf given its lack of popularity.



AHAHAHA that is good one

Can you dare to point how many small scale PVP groups can outmatch us? There are afew.. very very few. You are not one of them.


Your statement crumbles on itself. What you are going to do with yuour all halted at 23km when you cannto neut them? You will get CLOSER. Thta is obvious. And anyoen that knwos how toi pilto wil avoid getting under 25 km from an ashimmu. Sicne the ashimmu is slow.. it is not easy to use its 90% web. The long range web is far weaker. But much easier to leverage in combat with the restricted ashimmu mobility.

THe web change on the ashimmu wil change the ship, but combined with the new nos capability the ship wil be slighly more usable (altouygh with a weaker apex power). The cruor on other hand will be a disaster


His statement is 100% accurate m8. people dont build fleets around the ashimmu GOING to get webs they build fleets around bringing the enemys to the ashimmu via sensor damps. the 90% web and the neuting power synergize so well with the ashimmu its amazing. Any gang that knows how to pilot will either warp off or be forced under 25km to continue the engagement period.

The web range bonus does nothing to help the ashimmu. so now the ashimmu has to surrender 2 mids to webs instead of 1 mid to continue neuting a target. the nos bonus is completely useless on the ashimmu as nobody would EVER fit it to the ashimmu for ANY SERIOUS nueting duty. Everybody who uses them already has guardians cap trans the ashimmu's 5 medium neuts



Now somebody suggest mixing the bonus on the ashimmu and cruor making is have a mixed 7.5% range and effectiveness to the web. this wouldnt completely nerf the ashimmu but it would certinaly not make it to OP like serpentis ships

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Giullare
The Candyman is Back
#1343 - 2014-03-15 08:25:50 UTC
So.... those ppl suggesting to give cruor and ashimmu web range AND strenght must have bought a big stockpile Lol
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1344 - 2014-03-15 11:22:34 UTC
Giullare wrote:
So.... those ppl suggesting to give cruor and ashimmu web range AND strenght must have bought a big stockpile Lol


A 6% bonus as suggested would give a web range of 16.9km overheated and 78% web strength. Which is very nice and unique, although is not as overpowered as you suggest
Spr09
Reign of Steel
Brave Collective
#1345 - 2014-03-15 20:55:11 UTC
They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0.
With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps.
Kapytul Gaynez
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1346 - 2014-03-16 03:54:21 UTC
Spr09 wrote:
They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0.
With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps.



The 2 super drones would be harder to kill than the 5 normal ones because of their eHP advantage. Specifically ship fitting smartbombs would have a much harder time getting Worm drones off of them.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1347 - 2014-03-16 09:44:31 UTC
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:
Spr09 wrote:
They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0.
With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps.



The 2 super drones would be harder to kill than the 5 normal ones because of their eHP advantage. Specifically ship fitting smartbombs would have a much harder time getting Worm drones off of them.


Not harder, each drone will take a little longer but killing it will be more effective.

In addition, the bandwidth reduction means that the ship loses the option of fitting ewar drones.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Joe Boirele
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1348 - 2014-03-16 16:50:03 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:
Spr09 wrote:
They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0.
With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps.



The 2 super drones would be harder to kill than the 5 normal ones because of their eHP advantage. Specifically ship fitting smartbombs would have a much harder time getting Worm drones off of them.


Not harder, each drone will take a little longer but killing it will be more effective.

In addition, the bandwidth reduction means that the ship loses the option of fitting ewar drones.

I hope you realize that EWAR drones really aren't good at all.

On a related note, will these changes be going out to singularity anytime soon?

Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.

"We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight!"
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1349 - 2014-03-16 17:23:35 UTC
Joe Boirele wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:
Spr09 wrote:
They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0.
With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps.



The 2 super drones would be harder to kill than the 5 normal ones because of their eHP advantage. Specifically ship fitting smartbombs would have a much harder time getting Worm drones off of them.


Not harder, each drone will take a little longer but killing it will be more effective.

In addition, the bandwidth reduction means that the ship loses the option of fitting ewar drones.

I hope you realize that EWAR drones really aren't good at all.
...


I'm not so sure. A set of EC-300's are extremely effective against most targets* when you want to escape a situation you can't otherwise win. The (over) power of ECM drones has been the subject of many, many impassioned forum posts. The loss of the ability to fly 5 of these is a very damaging nerf to the ship's ability to avoid engagements it does not want.

* does not include battleships, HACs and T3 layouts with the sensor booster subsystem (almost none of them). Thus they are effective against all frigates, most cruisers and battlecruisers.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Joe Boirele
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1350 - 2014-03-16 18:05:28 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Joe Boirele wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Kapytul Gaynez wrote:
Spr09 wrote:
They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0.
With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps.



The 2 super drones would be harder to kill than the 5 normal ones because of their eHP advantage. Specifically ship fitting smartbombs would have a much harder time getting Worm drones off of them.


Not harder, each drone will take a little longer but killing it will be more effective.

In addition, the bandwidth reduction means that the ship loses the option of fitting ewar drones.

I hope you realize that EWAR drones really aren't good at all.
...


I'm not so sure. A set of EC-300's are extremely effective against most targets* when you want to escape a situation you can't otherwise win. The (over) power of ECM drones has been the subject of many, many impassioned forum posts. The loss of the ability to fly 5 of these is a very damaging nerf to the ship's ability to avoid engagements it does not want.

* does not include battleships, HACs and T3 layouts with the sensor booster subsystem (almost none of them). Thus they are effective against all frigates, most cruisers and battlecruisers.

Alright, ECM-300s are marginally useful. But a 44.5% jam chance with five versus a non-skilled non-eccmed tristan isn't too great in my book.

Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.

"We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight!"
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#1351 - 2014-03-16 18:42:22 UTC
Spr09 wrote:
They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0.
With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps.


Yes, but these two small drones have the EHP of a decently fit attack frigate with a sig radius that makes interceptors green with envy.

Good luck with killing them before they (and the Worm that launched them) kill you.
Joe Boirele
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1352 - 2014-03-16 18:45:43 UTC
Aglais wrote:
Spr09 wrote:
They look decent for the most part, with the exception of the worm. A ship with small 5 drones out and a 10% bonus to hp and damage makes it equivalent to having 7.5 drones out at one time. However, you need to be able to kill 5 drones for it's dps to drop to 0.
With the worm, the 300% bonus with 2 small drones makes it equivalent to 8 small drones out at once, but small drones are extremely easy to kill, and killing one drone effectively halves the ship's dps.


Yes, but these two small drones have the EHP of a decently fit attack frigate with a sig radius that makes interceptors green with envy.

Good luck with killing them before they (and the Worm that launched them) kill you.


Not to mention they have three buddies waiting in the drone bay

Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.

"We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight!"
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#1353 - 2014-03-16 19:50:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dun'Gal
Joe Boirele wrote:
Alright, ECM-300s are marginally useful. But a 44.5% jam chance with five versus a non-skilled non-eccmed tristan isn't too great in my book.


Alright lets be honest here, you know damn well if it were you in that tristan, that 44.5% chance is actually equivellant to about 400% chance to jam.P

Edit: In so far as the changes go.

Worm: Bad I really dislike this idea of two super drones, as already mentioned it become a simple matter to just neuter the worm by only needing to kill two drones. Even if they have higher EHP it's not as though they have the buffer a frig, and will die easily.
Cruor: Also bad, the Nos bonus is interesting, but the change to the web bonus is terrible. We're talking about a ship here that was never really amazing at much other than holding stuff in place, removing the strong web makes this ship pathetic at best. Also this was literally the only pirate frigate that ever stood much of a chance vs the "OP" Daredevil in a 1 on 1 fight - this of course will no longer be the case.
Succubus: I like this change, it's unique and interesting
Dramiel: I'm fine with this
Daredevil: Also fine
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#1354 - 2014-03-16 20:26:08 UTC
Dun'Gal wrote:
Worm: Bad I really dislike this idea of two super drones, as already mentioned it become a simple matter to just neuter the worm by only needing to kill two drones. Even if they have higher EHP it's not as though they have the buffer a frig, and will die easily.



Someone did the math earlier. They do basically end up with the buffer of a frig. Obviously not the buffer of a brick Vengeance or Wolf but still a fair amount of HP. With 3 spares on board killing off a worms drones will be harder than some of you are thinking.

As for not being able to launch a full flight of ECM drones... That seems like such a minor nerf compared to getting a lot more drone damage/hp and more missile damage.
Joe Boirele
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1355 - 2014-03-16 20:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Boirele
Dun'Gal wrote:
Joe Boirele wrote:
Alright, ECM-300s are marginally useful. But a 44.5% jam chance with five versus a non-skilled non-eccmed tristan isn't too great in my book.


Alright lets be honest here, you know damn well if it were you in that tristan, that 44.5% chance is actually equivellant to about 400% chance to jam.P


With my luck, the other pilot would probably get 10 wrecking hits in, then my socket would close and I'd get podded.Big smile

Change opinions*
Worm: My only concern is the (possible) vulnerability of the two drones.
Succumbus: Unique.

*everything else I have no opinion on.

Personally, I think the best way to figure out the bonuses would be to put the changes up on singularity. theorycrafting is great, but actual combat is better.

Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.

"We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight!"
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#1356 - 2014-03-17 00:17:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
I find it amusing that angel cartel ships, despite being based off of jovian technology from their first empire, are still considered fairly low-tech...perhaps altering them a bit to refocus a bit more on their damage projection could be ideal; 20% bonus to falloff per level might be interesting.

I'm also still kind of scratching my head over the sansha thing. Aren't they supposed to be armor in the lore? They drop armor loot, the NPCs rep armor, wouldn't giving them some kind of bonus, either with resists or reps then predisposing their fitting slots a little more towards armor make a bit more sense?

I mean, I don't really mind the ab bonus; it's quite nice and has a lot of interesting applications. But I would like to see them changed to armor, OR come to think of it, have equal viability with both. A good idea might be tinkering with their slots a bit, and making them strict combat ships.

For example:

Succubus would get
2/4/4 slot setup, equal HP for shield and armor. Focus would be on high performance especially with capacitor.

Phant would get
4/5/5 slot loadout and an extra gun slot. Would do more dps, and in addition, it and the others would get a 10% optimal range bonus per level for lasers.

Nightmare would get
5/7/7 slot loadout, and with the optimal range bonus and cap buff, would no doubt be extremely powerful in most situations.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#1357 - 2014-03-17 00:52:53 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:
If you want a long range webber, bring a Rapier, Huginn, Loki or Hyena. The point of the blood raider ships is the powerful neuts + webs to completely incapacitate an enemy ship. In order for that to work, the ranges of the two EW systems must be more or less matched. Having 80km webs with 6 to 12km neuts/nos isn't overly useful as you can only use one bonus at a time in that case. Currently you can use both very well together. The 90% web at 23km (fed navy web + t3 skirmish links) allows you to crash any reasonable gap to neut/nos range in a matter of seconds. And once in neut range, that 90% web is still crippling.

If the bonuses are changed as proposed, we have the following:

1) A webbing Cruor or Ashimmu that doesn't even bother fitting neut/nos since it is kiting and will never get them in range.

2) A NOSing Cruor or Ashimmu that has a web but doesn't take advantage of the range bonus since all combat is within normal web range anyways.

See the problem?

The current Cruor is actually completely fine from a bonus standpoint. The real problem lies in a lack of slots and fittings. In order for our current Cruor to work, it needs a 4th midslot + the PG/CPU to fit a small t2 cap booster. It cannot gain that slot through losing one anywhere else, it's simply short a slot. With the NOS bonus, it doesn't need the cap booster or the 4th mid. And so with only the NOS change, the ship is basically fixed. It still isn't a great ship, but it has some uses. To be more useful it needs more damage output compared to the current one on the live server. 110 dps is a bit on the anemic side imho.

The Ashimmu requires no changes as it is currently performing very well. However, I don't think any would complain if the NOS change went through. It would be a double buff in fact, as it would allow for skipping the cap booster and thus be able to fit a pair of 90% webs. Now that is powerful indeed! The web range bonus swap would remove that new ability however as suddenly you'd need 2 webs to get almost the same effect. And the range bonus is, as stated numerous times, of no value to the Ashimmu.


That is complete lack of understanding of small scale cobmat (where the ashimmu will be used).

Have you even used an ashimmu? The web range bonus will be a HUGE buff to the ashimmu. Its largest problem nowadays is to CATCH its prey not to stop it compeltely (That the neuts will eventually do as well). The ashimmu is among the slwoest cruisers around, web range bonus will finally make it it useful against smart players in cruisers as well


There is a reason why we ( the corp) bought about 50 ashimmus when the changes were announced). BEcause they wil lbe come among the best ships for small gang combat (no small gang is not 50 peopel for you nullbearers, its 3 or 4 people). And we know a LOT about this small scale engagement stuff.


Clearly you're the one not very experienced at pvp. Fights start within 20km typically unless the attacker deliberately initiates at range. Overheated fed navy web is 23km with links which your average ashimmu, especially a small gang or solo one, will have. A 90% 23km web brings everything to a dead stop. That's far more useful to a brawler than the ability to web them at 50km. If you're starting combat at 50km in a ship with a 25km gun range and <15km neut/nos range, you're doing it wrong even if you have a 50km web. The ashimmu is currently one of the finest cruisers in the game for solo/small gang. This web change is a massive nerf to it. Yes it will still have its uses, but it is an unnecessary nerf given its lack of popularity.



AHAHAHA that is good one

Can you dare to point how many small scale PVP groups can outmatch us? There are afew.. very very few. You are not one of them.


Your statement crumbles on itself. What you are going to do with yuour all halted at 23km when you cannto neut them? You will get CLOSER. Thta is obvious. And anyoen that knwos how toi pilto wil avoid getting under 25 km from an ashimmu. Sicne the ashimmu is slow.. it is not easy to use its 90% web. The long range web is far weaker. But much easier to leverage in combat with the restricted ashimmu mobility.

THe web change on the ashimmu wil change the ship, but combined with the new nos capability the ship wil be slighly more usable (altouygh with a weaker apex power). The cruor on other hand will be a disaster


Being in a successful corp does not automatically make you as an individual an expert on every ship in the game. Notice that in numerous responses to this thread, I've only commented on the proposed blood raider changes. There is a reason for that.

As for staying out of my web range, good luck with that. I'll catch you on a gate (17km), a WH (<10km) or warp to your location at 0 after a prober in fleets gets your exact location. If you're moving, big deal, I'll land 10km away, less than half my web range. In the off chance you actually attacked me, also no problem because I'm sitting in the immediate vicinity of a gate/wh/station/pos. If it's a problem, I and anyone with me will simply move to the next system. If you pursue, you are going to start well within my web range.

As for closing to neut range, as I've already stated, charging in 5-6km while your target is 90% webbed is a lot easier than trying to close 40km with only a 60% web on the target. I don't know why you want a web range bonus so much. Just fly a damned rapier if you want that. It can web stuff at around 100km.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#1358 - 2014-03-17 07:59:48 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
As for closing to neut range, as I've already stated, charging in 5-6km while your target is 90% webbed is a lot easier than trying to close 40km with only a 60% web on the target. I don't know why you want a web range bonus so much. Just fly a damned rapier if you want that. It can web stuff at around 100km.

^^^^ This guy gets it, web range bonus is unneccessary on these ships, and the Cruor gets hurt the most with this change, it's not doing anything meaningful at the ranges you will be webbing at, and in reality if you want added web range on your Cruor just spring for a faction web, or if you want to be extra cheesy add links. Without the velocity bonus the Cruor gets heavily neutered. While I've never flown an Ashimmu myself I would imagine it would benefit from a range bonus, but the velocity bonus is just too nice a bonus to throw away. I know a lot of people complain it's too strong and thats a valid complaint but these ships barely function well now with the bonus.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1359 - 2014-03-17 18:53:07 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:

Being in a successful corp does not automatically make you as an individual an expert on every ship in the game. Notice that in numerous responses to this thread, I've only commented on the proposed blood raider changes. There is a reason for that.

As for staying out of my web range, good luck with that. I'll catch you on a gate (17km), a WH (<10km) or warp to your location at 0 after a prober in fleets gets your exact location. If you're moving, big deal, I'll land 10km away, less than half my web range. In the off chance you actually attacked me, also no problem because I'm sitting in the immediate vicinity of a gate/wh/station/pos. If it's a problem, I and anyone with me will simply move to the next system. If you pursue, you are going to start well within my web range.

As for closing to neut range, as I've already stated, charging in 5-6km while your target is 90% webbed is a lot easier than trying to close 40km with only a 60% web on the target. I don't know why you want a web range bonus so much. Just fly a damned rapier if you want that. It can web stuff at around 100km.


do you think it would be better if the cruor was able to neut and shoot(with scorch) at 20km? and also gets 4 mids 3highs with 1 neut that has a stronger bonus keeping the neut amount the same so it can fit 2 webs or a cap booster


Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#1360 - 2014-03-17 23:58:23 UTC  |  Edited by: King Rothgar
Crazy KSK wrote:
King Rothgar wrote:

Being in a successful corp does not automatically make you as an individual an expert on every ship in the game. Notice that in numerous responses to this thread, I've only commented on the proposed blood raider changes. There is a reason for that.

As for staying out of my web range, good luck with that. I'll catch you on a gate (17km), a WH (<10km) or warp to your location at 0 after a prober in fleets gets your exact location. If you're moving, big deal, I'll land 10km away, less than half my web range. In the off chance you actually attacked me, also no problem because I'm sitting in the immediate vicinity of a gate/wh/station/pos. If it's a problem, I and anyone with me will simply move to the next system. If you pursue, you are going to start well within my web range.

As for closing to neut range, as I've already stated, charging in 5-6km while your target is 90% webbed is a lot easier than trying to close 40km with only a 60% web on the target. I don't know why you want a web range bonus so much. Just fly a damned rapier if you want that. It can web stuff at around 100km.


do you think it would be better if the cruor was able to neut and shoot(with scorch) at 20km? and also gets 4 mids 3highs with 1 neut that has a stronger bonus keeping the neut amount the same so it can fit 2 webs or a cap booster




I don't really care either way tbh. The only thing I'm trying to drive in is that the bonuses need to be complementary. Brawler with the current slot layout/fittings, 90% web and the new NOS bonus would be acceptable. It would still be a little weak in dps and very average for tank, but the ability to cap someone out is powerful by itself, so it would be ok.

If it is converted to something akin to a sentinel with a web range bonus instead of TD bonus, that could also work. I think a 4th midslot would solve a lot of problems regardless of which route is followed.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]