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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#1221 - 2014-03-05 18:41:14 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Quote:
Gila/Snake
50% damage bonus as normal.
50mbit bandwidth
150% damage/hp bonus to heavy and sentry drones (and logi drone heal amount plox).
drone bay unchanged.

7.5 effective drones no matter what type is used (not 8 Cry). The heavy/sentry bonus just means it can carry tons of extra drones. Same dps, net effect increased drone bay (well why the hell not). No need to specifically limit # of drones.


The problem with the drone bay is that if you leave it as is then you encourage blobbing drone assist. If you think about it, a RS like the one you described would be able to field 12 sets of sentry drones. Thats the equivalent of a 1500mbit drone bay for sentries. At the same time, the big HP bonus would make RS sentries very resistant to removal (SBs or bombing runs). And the big damage bonus would circumvent the recent drone assist nerf (by moving the limit from 50 to 187.5 sentries).


Neither of which seem like particularly important problems (to me). Obviously making them resistant to removal is one of the intentions of the design. Furthermore, so what? 8 sets of sentries instead of 3. whatever. Can't kill the drones? kill the ship. That's how it usually works. But yeah, maybe a slight reduction in drone bay. but not too much. None of this "175m3" crap. Maybe like 250-300.

Drone assist doesn't matter much in this context. Sure combined with the large supply of sentry drones you have the potential for a monster fleet ship, but you whelp one fleet of em and suddenly there aren't enough replacements in Jita. Would be a gigantic buff to goonsec plex runners though. Regardless I'm less concerned with a pirate BS fleet doctrine being op simple because of supply issues (not like navy ships which may as well be infinite). You could tone it down to 75mbit bandwidth with a 75% bonus to heavies/sentries, this gives you 7.85 effective drones, but then you get issues with using 2 super-bonused sentries alongside 2 mediums and one light, which would also be hilarious.

Edited my earlier post because I wrote 250% when i meant 150%

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#1222 - 2014-03-05 18:41:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Quote:
i think that would be a mistake ... it gives too much versatility .. and kind of impedes on gallente droneboats..


How?

1. The double limitation kills versatility (no utility or ewar drone HP bonuses, no ability to field a flight of med utility/ewar in gila, or heavy utility/ewar in RS.
2. There is no bonus to drone damage projection (range) or damage application (tracking, speed). Thats where the Gallente drone boats excel.

Batelle wrote:

Edited my earlier post because I wrote 250% when i meant 150%



Yeah, that changes it, you can have a bigger drone bay if you go for 150%.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#1223 - 2014-03-05 18:44:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Bertrand Butler wrote:

Gila
Gallente Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage
Caldari Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus:
200% bonus to light and medium combat drone damage and hitpoints

Bandwidth: 30mbit
Drone Bay: 75mbit

RS
Gallente Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage
Caldari Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
Role Bonus:
300% bonus to heavy and sentry combat drone damage and hitpoints

Bandwidth: 50mbit
Drone Bay: 125mbit


Gila would be complete garbage in that form. 9 effective mediums and 4.5 effective launchers is pretty bad dps. Only complaint on the snake is the lack of bonused lights. 125m3 drone bay is UNJUSTIFIABLY SMALL. Like.. the drone bay situations is way worse and way less versatile than the current snake. Make it 250m3 at least.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#1224 - 2014-03-05 18:47:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Batelle wrote:

Gila would be complete garbage in that form. 6 effective mediums and 4.5 effective launchers is pretty bad dps. Only complaint on the snake is the lack of bonused lights. 125m3 drone bay is UNJUSTIFIABLY SMALL. Like.. the drone bay situations is way worse and way less versatile than the current snake. Make it 250m3 at least.


Thats 9 effective mediums (3x10mbit bandwidth @300% damage/HP), or 15 effective scouts (5x5mbit bandwidth @300% damage/HP). It would make a ridiculous anti-tackle support ship.

Also, you cannot add the bonus to lights in the RS, because if it takes the role bonus it would field a flight of 5 scouts @400% Damage/HP (thats a 20 scout drone equivalent, it would apply crazy damage to small targets and thats a no-no for Battleships). Thats the arbitrary drone limit problem I was talking about earlier....
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#1225 - 2014-03-05 19:14:40 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
CCP Rise, how about looking again at Sansha, the afterburner bonus will be useless on at least one of their ships, and the Phantasm is now forced to use one completely changing the current playstyle for the worse in my opinion.

I've been impressed in the past by how you have altered ships for the better after listening to feedback, and so I have faith you will always get to a good solution.

I've been editing the EveHQ database and come up with some rough designs of my own for what I think would be a much better direction for Sansha. I compared the stats against other ships of equal class and although a rought draft, these would fit in well to the current meta.

Also as posted previously, this is the matching concept for the Succubus.


SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed per level

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to Shield Resistances per level

Role Bonus:
150% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage

Slot layout: 3H, 5M (+1), 2L (-1); 3 turrets (+1), 0 launchers
Fittings: 58 PWG (+14), 195 CPU (+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 650 / 550 / 540
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 450 / 210000 / 2.14
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320 (-20) / 3.5 / 965000 / 4.68s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 34km (+2) / 650 / 6 (+1)
Sensor strength: 16 (+3)
Signature radius: 38 (+5)


Finally the phantasm, I did not have too much time to play around with altering the stats, but from experience I would simply suggest adding an extra mid slot which was missing, and keeping it's damage at its current respectable level. The extra mid slot will allow it to perform it's role of webbing and scramming the enemy whilst still being able to fit a respectable shield tank.

I think these proposals would put Sansha in a very good place. I am not 100% on the Nightmare still, I think it may need its stats reducing slightly further, but this is simply a rough draft. And I hope these proposals may be of interest.


ALL OF THIS

It makes the sansha in a great mix of Rokh and Abaddon with the damage potential of a vindi to give the amarr a heavy brawler pirate race while the blood raiders can remain the skirmisher types



This. SO much this.

The problem with the AB theme is that it runs counter to the entire idea of the ship. IT works amazingly on the Tengu because the Tengu doesn't have the problems that the Sansha does. The Tengu's DPS doesn't change based on the Tengu's velocity. It doesn't need capacitor to use its DPS. It can use that extra speed to full advantage.

The Sansha ships are useless in trying to apply this bonus. The AB bonus puts an incentive to keep signature radius low, so no more shield extenders, or shield rigs else you counter your current bonus. So okay, fine Active tank it, except now that you're perma running the AB, and firing your guns, you've no capacitor left to tank anything.

So, perhaps kiting isn't its use, maybe brawling? Okay, assuming the tracking bonus is enough to assume you can orbit and hit people, that works assuming you're A, not fighting a daredevil, or B, anything with neuts, or C, anything with a tracking disruptor.

Before you could fill the two utility highs with Nos's to keep running, but that is out now, and the fitting room is so poor that you can't fit it either. The range doesn't support the use anyway.

When you look at this, you have to consider your other options. Why would you fly a succubus when you can fly a DareDevil with the CCP admitted almost broken 90% webs?

The oversize AB works on Caldari ships because they aren't tied to tracking or capacitor. Energy turrets are both very highly tied to tracking and capacitor.

Then, also, you have to wonder what purpose is there in creating yet another kiting frigate? Why would anyone fly it over an combat interceptor or say Navy Slicer? There are opportunity costs to be considered.

Looking at the Phantasm, why would you ever fly it over the Vagabond? There is already a kiting/ range based meta (shield deimos, vagabonds, zealots [sorta]). Why would you ever pick a phantasm over these based on an AB bonus?

Likewise, why would you ever pick the Succubus over ships that are 90% as fast or faster and better at their jobs than this boat which is designed against itself?
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1226 - 2014-03-05 21:04:48 UTC
Am I the only one that thinks the Dramiel is going to be left behind with these changes just like the Rifter was?

All the other factions are getting/have cool bonuses that add to the flavor of them and the Dramiel is ...a Firetail with drones.

Give the Angel Cartel something cool about them Hell, give them no cloak lock delay so they can hide and attack, or any number of much better ideas than mine. Make them cool or interesting or unique in a way! Because right now all they are is the best minmatar ships.

And that is sad for Minmatar ships and for the Cartel.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#1227 - 2014-03-05 21:37:59 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Am I the only one that thinks the Dramiel is going to be left behind with these changes just like the Rifter was?

All the other factions are getting/have cool bonuses that add to the flavor of them and the Dramiel is ...a Firetail with drones.

Give the Angel Cartel something cool about them Hell, give them no cloak lock delay so they can hide and attack, or any number of much better ideas than mine. Make them cool or interesting or unique in a way! Because right now all they are is the best minmatar ships.

And that is sad for Minmatar ships and for the Cartel.




They are the fastest, have great damage and projection and the best models of the bunch. They have been the best pirate line for ages. People will still fly Drams, Cynabals, and Machs with little to no changes.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#1228 - 2014-03-05 21:41:07 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Am I the only one that thinks the Dramiel is going to be left behind with these changes just like the Rifter was?

All the other factions are getting/have cool bonuses that add to the flavor of them and the Dramiel is ...a Firetail with drones.

Give the Angel Cartel something cool about them Hell, give them no cloak lock delay so they can hide and attack, or any number of much better ideas than mine. Make them cool or interesting or unique in a way! Because right now all they are is the best minmatar ships.

And that is sad for Minmatar ships and for the Cartel.


Yes, you are the only one.

The Tears Must Flow
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#1229 - 2014-03-05 21:48:02 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:

Thats 9 effective mediums (3x10mbit bandwidth @300% damage/HP), or 15 effective scouts (5x5mbit bandwidth @300% damage/HP). It would make a ridiculous anti-tackle support ship.

Also, you cannot add the bonus to lights in the RS, because if it takes the role bonus it would field a flight of 5 scouts @400% Damage/HP (thats a 20 scout drone equivalent, it would apply crazy damage to small targets and thats a no-no for Battleships). Thats the arbitrary drone limit problem I was talking about earlier....


I don't want a anti-tackle support ship. There's plenty of cheap crap that can do that well already. I want a dps monster.

And of course 20 effective warriors on a rattlesnake is something that should be avoided. I guess having to used unbonused lights is an acceptable weakness, but it would be terrible to give it such a small drone bay that it can't afford to spend any on drones other than sentries/heavies.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#1230 - 2014-03-05 22:02:41 UTC
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Ayallah wrote:
Am I the only one that thinks the Dramiel is going to be left behind with these changes just like the Rifter was?

All the other factions are getting/have cool bonuses that add to the flavor of them and the Dramiel is ...a Firetail with drones.

Give the Angel Cartel something cool about them Hell, give them no cloak lock delay so they can hide and attack, or any number of much better ideas than mine. Make them cool or interesting or unique in a way! Because right now all they are is the best minmatar ships.

And that is sad for Minmatar ships and for the Cartel.




They are the fastest, have great damage and projection and the best models of the bunch. They have been the best pirate line for ages. People will still fly Drams, Cynabals, and Machs with little to no changes.



1. Style ain't no balance factor.
2. Dramiel has no great damage, and the projection is now the same as on the new Rifter (which is cool, RIFTERRR!!!).
3. Having been the best pirate line doesn't mean it has to be the worst now (at least what we can see right now on frigs).
4. Dramiel is only going to be the fastest under certain conditions, like: If you look at MWD ships.

To 2.: The Dramiel is weak in terms of dps. A Firetail gets a 125% multiplier to it's two turret's damage, a Dramiel gets a 100% multiplier to it's two turrets and a flock of unbonused drones.
While the Fall-Off bonus can be seen as some kind of damage bonus (at least projectiles), it favors a more kiting orientated playstyle. However, if you want to kite with autocannons, you have to do it at ranges where it's actually worth doing it, say: Where the opponent can't hit you, AND you dictate range.
A Laser-Ship for example will just load scorch and hit you, a Blaster-Ship will load Null and have probably the same damage you do on the edges of falloff.
A new Succubus will be roughly as fast as a Dramiel when both fit an afterburner.

Result: If you want to kite, do it long range, like, with Arties. Problems apply:
This is where the mwd and point start costing a lot of cap/s, and Interceptors and regular Tech 1 Missile frigates do this just as good or far better. For a fracture of the cost.


If you now look at the fittingspace a Dramiel has, ... boy, have you ever tried fitting one so you actually want to pick that Dramiel rather than a Firetail with the same fit?

If not, i suggest you try.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1231 - 2014-03-05 22:19:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Ayallah wrote:
Am I the only one that thinks the Dramiel is going to be left behind with these changes just like the Rifter was?

All the other factions are getting/have cool bonuses that add to the flavor of them and the Dramiel is ...a Firetail with drones.

Give the Angel Cartel something cool about them Hell, give them no cloak lock delay so they can hide and attack, or any number of much better ideas than mine. Make them cool or interesting or unique in a way! Because right now all they are is the best minmatar ships.

And that is sad for Minmatar ships and for the Cartel.


it does seem to be like a fast rifter now..

DRAMIEL

Gallente Frigate Bonus:
15% bonus to Small Projectile Turret damage (was bonus to Small Projectile Turret Tracking)

Minmatar Frigate Bonus:
12.5%(+2.5%) bonus to Small Projectile Turret falloff

Role Bonus:
50% bonus to mwd sig penalty reduction

Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 3 turrets, 0(-1) launchers
Fittings: 37 PWG, 133 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 640(+57) / 500(-82) / 520(+3)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 370(+5) / 208000(-26375) / 1.77(+.22)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 410 (-40) / 3.1(-.02) / 950000 / 4.08s(-.02)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 (-15) / 0 (-20)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 28km(+3km) / 750 / 5
Sensor strength: 11
Signature radius: 30(-2)

with these changes they would be genuine masters of projectiles like they should be .. also clearly shield tanked now not omni tanked like minmatar ships are (firetail has 675hp on both).. slight speed nerf so the mwd bonus isn't OP and also so inties are faster as they should be... removal of launcher and drones as they make no sense the drones here should be on DD really..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1232 - 2014-03-05 22:29:13 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:

A good Daredevil will need a Faction Web. No, a Blaster-Daredevil ain't a good Daredevil.
A good Dramiel (as pointed out earlier) will need a few faction / deadspace mods.


Also, if only using Tech 2 mods, a Cruor will still be a pretty nice ship - not for solo, but for gangs.
It brings longrange webs (where you would have to bring, say, a Hyena - which then adds NOTHING to the gang) so it can catch stuff, and f necessary, close in and deal some 200 dps with Multi, 220 with conflag. And, if closed in, it can also unleash some neuting pressure (for which you would have to bring a Sentinel) between 10 and 40 cap/s, depending on highslot layout.



if someone brought that cruor to my frig fleet id tell him to get into a sentinel instead
tracking disruptors are just so much better then long webs in a frig fleet, the sentinel can stay out of web range and has more tank due to t2 resists, while neuting from 31km is so much better then webing from 26 (overheated t2)

a sentinel in a frig fleet is gonna protect the fleet from damage with its TEs while being able to slow down fast frigates at longer ranges by turning off their prop mod
against bigger targets you don't need the long web since your frigs are faster anyway there once again the stronger neuting power reigns supreme

a cruor will merely web the target a few seconds before the rest of the fleet will get its tackle on it and will have to stay in web range to apply its inferior neuts

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#1233 - 2014-03-05 23:13:17 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:




The damage on a firetail and Dram is not as close as you are implying. the Dram does roughly 1/3 more damage with the same fit. They have the same tracking bonus but the Dram gets an additional falloff bonus. Speed, Agility, Scan Res, Sensor Strength, signature radius and raw cap also all favor the Dram and in some cases by quite a bit. For that you lose some eHP, 50 Calibration, some cap recharge and a little fitting. The Dram is a flat out better ship than the Firetail. The Firetail is just cheaper.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1234 - 2014-03-06 00:53:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:




The damage on a firetail and Dram is not as close as you are implying. the Dram does roughly 1/3 more damage with the same fit.

Where are you getting these numbers from I have to ask?...

With the same fit the Dramiel does less damage than the Firetail. Even including full damage from the drones, which are not a reliable method of damage dealing, the firetail still achieves 86% of the Dramiels dps with pure autocannon fire alone.

Also lets not forget also that the firetail can fit more damage mods and rigs than a dramiel.

I have no idea where you get that the dram does 1/3 more damage from.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#1235 - 2014-03-06 01:05:27 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:




The damage on a firetail and Dram is not as close as you are implying. the Dram does roughly 1/3 more damage with the same fit.

Where are you getting these numbers from I have to ask?...

With the same fit the Dramiel does less damage than the Firetail. Even including full damage from the drones, which are not a reliable method of damage dealing, the firetail still achieves 86% of the Dramiels dps with pure autocannon fire alone.

Also lets not forget also that the firetail can fit more damage mods and rigs than a dramiel.

I have no idea where you get that the dram does 1/3 more damage from.



2 AC's and a Rocket launcher on both and 3 Hob 2's on the Dram.

Dram = 207 DPS
Firetail = 163 DPS

Roughly 1/3 more. Now rigs and fitting choices can vary those numbers but that is the base DPS.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#1236 - 2014-03-06 01:12:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Medalyn Isis wrote:


I have no idea where you get that the dram does 1/3 more damage from.


Did you notice the difference in falloff?

Here is a table for DPS. No rocket launchers, no damage mods.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/Dante80/bellycancer/06-Mar-1403-10-27_zps6fac086b.png

And here is another with rocket launchers and 2 gyros each.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/Dante80/bellycancer/06-Mar-1403-16-22_zpsf9065fba.png
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1237 - 2014-03-06 01:16:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:




The damage on a firetail and Dram is not as close as you are implying. the Dram does roughly 1/3 more damage with the same fit.

Where are you getting these numbers from I have to ask?...

With the same fit the Dramiel does less damage than the Firetail. Even including full damage from the drones, which are not a reliable method of damage dealing, the firetail still achieves 86% of the Dramiels dps with pure autocannon fire alone.

Also lets not forget also that the firetail can fit more damage mods and rigs than a dramiel.

I have no idea where you get that the dram does 1/3 more damage from.



2 AC's and a Rocket launcher on both and 3 Hob 2's on the Dram.

Dram = 207 DPS
Firetail = 163 DPS

Roughly 1/3 more. Now rigs and fitting choices can vary those numbers but that is the base DPS.

You always compare ships with damage mods as they will always be fitted so that is where you are going wrong. Both ships can comfortably fit 2 gyrostabs, and possibly rigs, but to be safe will calulate with two gyros.

Dram = 265 DPS (206 without drones)
Firetail = 229 DPS

Therefore including drones the dramiel is doing 15% more damage than the firetail, without drones it is doing around 10% less.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#1238 - 2014-03-06 01:43:58 UTC
Not all fits allow for one, let alone 2 damage mods.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1239 - 2014-03-06 03:40:25 UTC
Could be worse ...
I was expecting Guristas to be rebalanced for ECM + Hybrids.


Not entirely sure what I think about the 2 super drone idea.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#1240 - 2014-03-06 04:00:29 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Could be worse ...
I was expecting Guristas to be rebalanced for ECM + Hybrids.


Not entirely sure what I think about the 2 super drone idea.


Wouldnt that just basically be Caldari? I know Caldari use mostly Missiles, but they do plenty of Hybrids, or is it just that they dont have it on the same ships?