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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1141 - 2014-03-04 16:25:25 UTC
the weird thing about the drone HP is that most of it will be on 0% hull resists ... so its not quite as OP as it might seem .. although if they ever get around to buffing drones ... which would surely end up with switching the hull HP towards shield and armour then maybe it would be OP.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1142 - 2014-03-04 16:29:02 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
stuff


Rise is right. Sansha flavor has never been strong. The flavor of the ships is 95% in the visual design. The other 5% of their flavor is in them being released as pirate marauders along with the original marauders. They used to be missile spewing armor tracking disrupting NPCs, but now they shoot lasers and still are armor tanked. And the player ships are laser-shooting shield tanking. They need flavor, because in the gameplay, they don't have much (helped in no small part by the nightmare being the only one worth a damn). So chill out about the AB thing, it is some much needed flavor.

It is quite simple to expect a Caldari bonus from the Caldari skill. Mike White is correct, CCP Rise has shown contempt for the so called 'flavour' of the game in this pirate rebalance.

Also I understand giving the worm the drone bonus as a role bonus is necessary, but then you should find some other reason for the Gallente skill, perhaps drone tracking or something similar.

I found CCP Rise impressive in the battleship rebalance and also the industrial rebalance, although perhaps his standards are starting to slip now with the recent mess with the Nestor, and RHML's.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1143 - 2014-03-04 16:36:09 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:

It is quite simple to expect a Caldari bonus from the Caldari skill.

You do know that it used to get a bonus to energy turret damage from the Caldari ship skill right?
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1144 - 2014-03-04 16:38:59 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I can't understand the hate on the Worm. The ship will be insanely powerful, if not OP. A new bro for the caldari lineup of insanely effective ships, trading a mid slot for raw firepower.

Really, if anyone start shooting at the Worm drones, he is insane. A Hobgobelin 2 will reach ~4kehp, which is more than a lightly tanked frigate, and he have 3 brothers in the dronebay. Of course you can use EWAR or whatever against the drones, but don't forget the Worm is still here spewing missiles.

As for the Cruor, it's a Tormentor on steroids : hp compensate for the fourth low slot, and it earn more laser dps, long range web and good old OP nosferatu. Granted nos bonus + web bonus don't complement each other very well, but even without any one of them the ship will be brutal. Remember pulse laser are the mightest weapon between 5 and 10km, and the usual strategy against them is to dive and outtrack them. Here, if you dive the nos will be your doom.


because it'll be very easy to just half the worm's damage output in a frigate 1v1. it's dumb, it should have 5 drones.

tormentor is already light on tank. I don't want a special 100 mil, low-dps version with neuts and a long range web.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1145 - 2014-03-04 16:43:52 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
range control in silly frigate brawls is serious business. this is why 2 midslot punishers are trash, and why 3 midslot rifters cannot evade damage from anything. this AB bonus just amounts, in range control terms, within web range, to meaning you sort of have an AB and two webs, when actually you have an AB and one web. except that you'll be immune to missiles, and it's even more range control when you start stacking up all the dumb stuff like deadspace ABs, links, etc.

Like you say, you are just looking at 'silly' frigate brawls. Having a well performing frigate is nice and everything, but it is insignificant compared to your bigger weapons, ie the cruiser and the battleship, for which these bonuses will simply restrict options and force them to become super expensive minmatar ships.

Also I would even doubt how well this frigate will even perform, yes it will be king of the afterburning frigates, although any frigate with a mwd will shut it down without trouble, the serpentis ships will annihilate it. The dps with only two turrets is still anaemic, the PG has been nerfed so hard it leaves little option to fit any decent tank, so what is left for it. Flying around the enemy really fast so that it makes them dizzy, but as soon as it gets within web range all it can do is try run away as it's speed tank is all it has. So basically it is relegated to staying within beam laser range, which don't track or do much damage. 'It is going to be really exciting'

And the frigate is the most advantaged by these changes, the cruiser, and even worse the Nightmare, will be even worse off unless given some pretty hefty base stat increases.

I really do not look forward to the prospect of flying any of these ships, just cookie cutter active shield tanked rubbish that is relegated to the edge of webbing range, and god forbid the enemy comes with two webs or even a single a 90%, then you are just a sitting duck with nothing to counter it.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1146 - 2014-03-04 16:46:16 UTC
Sal Landry wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:

It is quite simple to expect a Caldari bonus from the Caldari skill.

You do know that it used to get a bonus to energy turret damage from the Caldari ship skill right?

Which also I was not too keen on, but at least the hull is also based around Amarr design, and so it isn't unimaginable that the Caldari expertise was to just work on the tracking. An afterburner bonus is from out of nowhere.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1147 - 2014-03-04 16:51:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Whiite
Sal Landry wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:

It is quite simple to expect a Caldari bonus from the Caldari skill.

You do know that it used to get a bonus to energy turret damage from the Caldari ship skill right?
\


just because it was wrong then/now, should make a president too make it wrong for the future.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1148 - 2014-03-04 17:02:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
WORM

Gallente Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage

Role Bonus:
50% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)

Slot layout: 2[(-1)H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 830(+33) / 500(-82) / 620(-3)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(-10) / 30(+5)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5
Sensor strength: 15
Signature radius: 40

how about this?.. makes sense from a lore point of view and you can still be effective at lower levels as 3 drones help spread the bonuses better..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1149 - 2014-03-04 17:10:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Harvey James wrote:
WORM

Gallente Frigate Bonus: 20% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 5m3 Drone Bay Capacity per level)
Caldari Frigate Bonus: 10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage
Role Bonus: 50% bonus to light combat drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile velocity)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 15(-10) / 30(+5)

how about this?.. makes sense from a lore point of view and you can still be effective at lower levels as 3 drones help spread the bonuses better..

Role bonus should continue to be a missile bonus, since this is a Caldari hull. I like the 20% bonus to light combat drone damage and hit points, though - just not the second stacking bonus (redundant). Still think it should have 25mbit drone bandwidth.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Steph Livingston
Neko's Blanket
#1150 - 2014-03-04 17:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Steph Livingston
So, I tried to bring this idea up before, but it was only in passing. Even though some ship bonuses seem to be made for Sentry drones *Cough* Domi *Cough*, there are very few that incentive the use of combat drones. What if the Guristas had bonuses that made combat drones more attractive in order to shake up the order of things.

I'm not a math wizard, so just take these numbers as an example, but what if they had something like:

========================================================================================

WORM

Gallente Frigate Bonus:
+10% Drone Velocity per level
+10% Drone Agility per level
+20% light drone damage / Hp per level

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Role Bonus:
+50% light missile damage
-50% Drone optimal range


Slot layout: 3H, 4M, 3L; 0 turrets, 2 launchers
Fittings: 40 PWG(+5), 180 CPU(+20)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 830(+33) / 500(-82) / 620(-3)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 380(+30) / 212000 (-22375) / 1.79 (+.29)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320(+33) / 3.8(+.31) / 965000 / 5.17s(+.42)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10(-15) / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km / 650 / 5
Sensor strength: 15
Signature radius: 40

========================================================================================

So, instead of the standard long range sentry drones, Guristas would launch waves of quick combat drones that could close and deal with small/medium targets but have trouble with larger targets. At close range their drones would have a quick response time and could orbit at a higher velocity making them hard to deal with, but loose out to sentry drone boats at longer range.

Just a thought to shake up the current meta a tad.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1151 - 2014-03-04 17:30:20 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
At this point it seems that most people agree the new Sansha bonus is useful and powerful but some worry it may not fit Sansha flavor-wise. I'm not a huge expert on flavor of course, but from my perspective, Sansha really don't have a lot of flavor associated with their actual gameplay. Using lasers and being aggressive jerks seems like it covers the majority of what we know about them and I see no reason that an afterburner bonus can't fit into their character. I would also hate to give up a good gameplay design in the name of flavor unless it was extremely disruptive. I hope you Sansha loyalists can integrate this into your idea of how Sansha work without too much discomfort :)


So the extremely close collaboration with the lore/story team on the SoE ships was a fluke? Because that was awesome.

Sansha are great lore, prominently featured in the game. While I love the idea in the abstract of a kiting shield laserboat, and I love the additional variety you guys have introduced making active tanks and now afterburners viable in PVP (on the right hulls), I think it's really worth having lunch with CCP Eterne and the guys and talking lore.

Even if the decision is that Sansha Kuvakei is trying out radical new tactics (which would make sense, considering how often his fleets get curbstomped now), so that the lore fits the design, that's still something toothsome and interesting.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1152 - 2014-03-04 17:52:03 UTC
Steph Livingston wrote:
So, I tried to bring this idea up before, but it was only in passing.

The only problem I see is that Pirate ships get three (3) bonuses, so this isn't going to fly.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#1153 - 2014-03-04 18:38:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
stuff


Rise is right. Sansha flavor has never been strong. The flavor of the ships is 95% in the visual design. The other 5% of their flavor is in them being released as pirate marauders along with the original marauders. They used to be missile spewing armor tracking disrupting NPCs, but now they shoot lasers and still are armor tanked. And the player ships are laser-shooting shield tanking. They need flavor, because in the gameplay, they don't have much (helped in no small part by the nightmare being the only one worth a damn). So chill out about the AB thing, it is some much needed flavor.

It is quite simple to expect a Caldari bonus from the Caldari skill. Mike White is correct, CCP Rise has shown contempt for the so called 'flavour' of the game in this pirate rebalance.


The caldari bonus isn't caldari enough? oh come on. Maybe i should throw a fit because the mach has a AC falloff bonus from gallente. What matters is that the ship has the flavor, not the bonus. The current nightmare has its caldari flavor in its shields, it doesn't matter than the caldari bonus is a laser bonus.

Dersen Lowery wrote:
So the extremely close collaboration with the lore/story team on the SoE ships was a fluke? Because that was awesome.

Sansha are great lore, prominently featured in the game. While I love the idea in the abstract of a kiting shield laserboat, and I love the additional variety you guys have introduced making active tanks and now afterburners viable in PVP (on the right hulls), I think it's really worth having lunch with CCP Eterne and the guys and talking lore.


OMG SOE missions have me shooting amarr but their ships require amarr skills. The lore!

Seriously though I love the lore but there's nothing about putting afterburners on sansha ships that conflicts with any kind of lore.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#1154 - 2014-03-04 18:56:07 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I can't understand the hate on the Worm. The ship will be insanely powerful, if not OP. A new bro for the caldari lineup of insanely effective ships, trading a mid slot for raw firepower.

Really, if anyone start shooting at the Worm drones, he is insane. A Hobgobelin 2 will reach ~4kehp, which is more than a lightly tanked frigate, and he have 3 brothers in the dronebay. Of course you can use EWAR or whatever against the drones, but don't forget the Worm is still here spewing missiles.

As for the Cruor, it's a Tormentor on steroids : hp compensate for the fourth low slot, and it earn more laser dps, long range web and good old OP nosferatu. Granted nos bonus + web bonus don't complement each other very well, but even without any one of them the ship will be brutal. Remember pulse laser are the mightest weapon between 5 and 10km, and the usual strategy against them is to dive and outtrack them. Here, if you dive the nos will be your doom.


because it'll be very easy to just half the worm's damage output in a frigate 1v1. it's dumb, it should have 5 drones.

tormentor is already light on tank. I don't want a special 100 mil, low-dps version with neuts and a long range web.


...or... You could focus that same dps on the easier to hit Worm itself and cut its damage to nothing.

Killing a Worm drone is almost as hard as the Worm, and only accounts for about1/3 of its dps, counting its own launchers.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1155 - 2014-03-04 19:22:29 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I can't understand the hate on the Worm. The ship will be insanely powerful, if not OP. A new bro for the caldari lineup of insanely effective ships, trading a mid slot for raw firepower.

Really, if anyone start shooting at the Worm drones, he is insane. A Hobgobelin 2 will reach ~4kehp, which is more than a lightly tanked frigate, and he have 3 brothers in the dronebay. Of course you can use EWAR or whatever against the drones, but don't forget the Worm is still here spewing missiles.

As for the Cruor, it's a Tormentor on steroids : hp compensate for the fourth low slot, and it earn more laser dps, long range web and good old OP nosferatu. Granted nos bonus + web bonus don't complement each other very well, but even without any one of them the ship will be brutal. Remember pulse laser are the mightest weapon between 5 and 10km, and the usual strategy against them is to dive and outtrack them. Here, if you dive the nos will be your doom.


because it'll be very easy to just half the worm's damage output in a frigate 1v1. it's dumb, it should have 5 drones.

tormentor is already light on tank. I don't want a special 100 mil, low-dps version with neuts and a long range web.


...or... You could focus that same dps on the easier to hit Worm itself and cut its damage to nothing.

Killing a Worm drone is almost as hard as the Worm, and only accounts for about1/3 of its dps, counting its own launchers.


He's talking about tding it or kiting it i believe.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#1156 - 2014-03-04 19:33:37 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I can't understand the hate on the Worm. The ship will be insanely powerful, if not OP. A new bro for the caldari lineup of insanely effective ships, trading a mid slot for raw firepower.

Really, if anyone start shooting at the Worm drones, he is insane. A Hobgobelin 2 will reach ~4kehp, which is more than a lightly tanked frigate, and he have 3 brothers in the dronebay. Of course you can use EWAR or whatever against the drones, but don't forget the Worm is still here spewing missiles.

As for the Cruor, it's a Tormentor on steroids : hp compensate for the fourth low slot, and it earn more laser dps, long range web and good old OP nosferatu. Granted nos bonus + web bonus don't complement each other very well, but even without any one of them the ship will be brutal. Remember pulse laser are the mightest weapon between 5 and 10km, and the usual strategy against them is to dive and outtrack them. Here, if you dive the nos will be your doom.


because it'll be very easy to just half the worm's damage output in a frigate 1v1. it's dumb, it should have 5 drones.

tormentor is already light on tank. I don't want a special 100 mil, low-dps version with neuts and a long range web.




...or... You could focus that same dps on the easier to hit Worm itself and cut its damage to nothing.

Killing a Worm drone is almost as hard as the Worm, and only accounts for about1/3 of its dps, counting its own launchers.


He's talking about tding it or kiting it i believe.


Yes, that is one of the trade offs for the stronger drones, they will be more susceptible to ewar. However, you could still recall and redeploy the drone to disrupt their ability to keep a drone locked down.

Nothing is foolproof and everything has drawbacks. If the increased ewar vunerability is not worth the decreased vunerability to being shot or smartbombed, perhaps one of the other drone boats would be better suited.
Shin Dari
Covert Brigade
#1157 - 2014-03-04 19:50:54 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Most complaints about the Worm at this point seem centered around the missile bonus. As I've already said, I agree that it's a little weird to have a missile bonus on the Gallente skill, but there really isn't a good way out of this. If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid. As for having the missile bonus at all, we preferred giving the option of very high damage output to Guristas over giving more specialized drone bonuses that would either overlap with other ships or not be very useful. That certainly doesn't mean you are required to fit missiles and seeing Worms with Neutralizers rather than missiles wouldn't surprise me at all. Oh, and I wanted to mention that the Worm missile bonus absolutely DOES affect rockets.
[snip]
Hope I answered at least some of your questions.

I have a question, what do you think about increasing the Worm's Drone Bay to be more in line with other Guristas ships?
Miasmos
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1158 - 2014-03-04 19:51:44 UTC
Cruor looks pretty powerful. The web range bonus specifically. That's a constellation gate radius webbing frigate with good scanres for your gatecamp situations.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1159 - 2014-03-04 20:02:43 UTC
I was talking about evading the drone's damage, not killing it.
Baneken
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#1160 - 2014-03-04 20:11:35 UTC
I wonder how would succu do with 10% bonus to reactive armour hardener's shift time per lvl, no other ship has that kind of bonus or maybe even a flat bonus of 50%.

Could make it a tough little blowfish with a tad more options and it would fit to Sansha's technological supremacy.